Colorado Flying

[Tantalum]

I did a search and couldn't find anything from the last few months, but pardon if this is a repost, just point me to the right thread

Was thinking of doing some longer cross country flights out towards CO and UT, was plotting some routes to Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountain, Lake Havasu, etc. and was impressed with some of the altitudes on the charts. The 172N has a ceiling of 13,5 but it honestly starts to feel quite slugging by the time I get to 9K on a hot day

So... for people who live in the rockies, what is flying and getting your license like there? I can only imagine a Cherokee 140 on a hot day from some place like Granby http://www.airnav.com/airport/KGNB

Or is flying in those parts relegated more to commercial ops or where most people getting their license already have their own turbo planes with O2, etc.

 

[azblackbird]

Personally, I wouldn't fly the mid rockies in any small plane w/o a turbo. That's just me. However, with that said. I've seen many non-turbo small planes on the various ramps spread throughout the rockies.

 

[Tantalum]

However, with that said. I've seen many non-turbo small planes on the various ramps

Right?! When you look at Google Images of the ramps of these places you see your pretty standard mixture of NA singles, Skyhawks, Archers, etc. So some people obviously do fly their planes out there... and I imagine you still have your typical flight schools doing slow flight, stalls, steep turns, etc... all of which must be that much more interesting at a high DA

 

[azblackbird]

I would imagine you're not going to see to many non-turbo planes flying on an 80° summer day. And yes it can get hot in the rockies during the summer.

 

[Clark1961]

Flying at high density altitudes and operating out of high ground elevation airports is doable in our spam cans. A bit of training is useful and the Colorado Pilots Association runs a ground school twice a year. Many CFI's around the mountains all over the west offer similar training.

There are many things to consider but the base things are to operate when it is cool, fairly calm winds, and don't be heavy. Engine operation, mostly leaning, is important too. Sparky Imeson wrote a book on mountain flying which has a lot of good info. Sparky died in a plane crash in the mountains. Be careful when venturing into high ground elevation territory. It seems like somebody screws it up every year and we read about another pilot who didn't consider density altitude.

All that said, Lake Havasu is pretty tame, just avoid the hundred degree days. ;-) ...and lean for take-off and operations above about 5,000'. That N should get up to 11K pretty easy but yeah, it's prolly a little sluggish compared to sea level ops. I've ridden in a 172 near sea level but wasn't in the drivers seat to really know how it felt. Most of my 172 time is above 5,000'.

 

[codeeno]

Tantalum,

Living and flying up here doesn't require a turbo. It does require proper planning and is less forgiving of mistakes. If you fly a southern route you can navigate around and up to the Denver area without having to deal too much with mountains and passes. However, once you are up here you will have to consider density altitude and performance for your plane. When I got back into flying, I was flying a 172 at KAPA. I still remember my first take off roll with that plane and my instructor. Throttle to the firewall, airspeed climbing, seemingly way too much runway going by - I look to my instructor a few times - I am contemplating aborting the takeoff - the instructor says "it'll fly.... just be patient". You will use a lot of runway on a warm day. I got my rating in Oklahoma - so my experience was lower altitudes and no worries about density altitudes. Different story here.

This is a beautiful part of the country to fly in. You just have to know what your plane can do and you have to plan. I also highly recommend the Mountain Flying Course - it helps with flight planning and the praticality of flying in the mountains. I did a XC from Denver to West Yellowstone and was not challenged with terrain - mostly because of the route I chose to fly.

Good luck with your decision and your flying!

Dean

 

[Tantalum]

Thanks Dean! Is that a Commander in your avatar? Was looking at some of the southerly routes to poke up to Denver. Flying in SoCal now (after getting licensed in the NE) so slowly getting used to contending with the mountains. Any meaningful trip here will have you navigating mountain passes, but will probably look at a course before venturing beyond Lake Havasu

 

[Tantalum]

All that said, Lake Havasu is pretty tame, just avoid the hundred degree days. ;-) ...and lean for take-off and operations above about 5,000'. That N should get up to 11K pretty easy but yeah, it's prolly a little sluggish compared to sea level ops.

Lake Havasu will be the furthest for now..

It's funny, the 172N has a conversion and climbs remarkably well until about 8,5... from there you can definitely feel it start to taper off. The plane I fly though also has a JPI and I've been gentle on the CHTs and keeping that airspeed up. I'm sure all out throttle and best climb it would make it up no problem, but you start to feel like you are asking the plane to do things it is less comfortable with. Always felt like 7,5 to 8,5 was the sweet spot for it

Big Bear is a good airport to practice some mountain flying ops around here... but even that is pretty tame since once you're off the runway it more or less starts dropping off either into the LA valley or down to the desert floor. I can only imagine taking off from there and seeing the elevation around you climb as you struggle to coax 200-300 fpm out of the plane

 

[Anthony]

I flew a non turboed Grumman Tiger (180 HP) in the Colorado Rockies for some years, and never had a problem. Dean nailed it. For summer flying it was a two place plane, but you can go most anywhere at 12,500 ft as Eric, and Greg taught me (they both participate here). The Colorado Pilots Assoc teaches a good mountain flying course, and we ended up in both Leadville, and Granby for our practice runs. Watch weather, don't fly when it is too windy, and keep the plane light.

 

[Clark1961]

The 180 hp 172s are "nice" here. I trained mostly in 160 hp Ns and on a warm afternoon 400 fpm was about all you'd get. Gotta keep the ball centered fer sure. The extra 20 hp doesn't sound like much but it does make a substantial difference on take-off and climb or you can actually fly with 3 adults!

On another note, lots of folks fly ultralights in the mountains. They aren't doing any cross country stuff but they do have a lot of fun. It isn't about horsepower, it's about knowing the aircraft, terrain, and weather as Dean mentioned.

 

[Tantalum]

Thanks guys, definitely great feedback. Seems like having that extra power is nice, but like driving in the snow it's more about your skills as a pilot than the car or plane you're in (within reason of course). The number of Range Rover and Lexus SUVs you see in the ditch would be a testament to that (while folks in older Corollas cruise by)

The extra 20 hp doesn't sound like much but it does make a substantial difference

Very surprising to me how much of a difference it actually does make, it is only about a 12 percent increase in power but it feels like much more. Interestingly, different plane so the comparison is not one to one, but I didn't feel like I got the same boost from the 200 hp in the SR20 (but that's for a different thread!)

 

[citizen5000]

Thanks guys, definitely great feedback.

If you can get to 12k plus or minus based on Hemispheric rule you can get past the Rockies over the top of SLC Bravo and over the Denver area flying the I-80 corridor.

 

[Tantalum]

If you can get to 12k plus or minus

Highest I've been in GA was 11,5 in SR20. Never had the 172N over 9K because haven't really had the need to and it felt comfortable in the 7,5-8,5 range. My next XC that is 200 NM each way I'll see what the real world performance is like up there though

 

[coloradobluesky]

It's power to weight ratio. The Cessna 172's with a good 160 or 180 horse engine, lightly loaded do ok. Of course you have to LEAN before takeoff! Also, since you may have to fly as high as 13,000' you may want/need some oxygen. And, the wind and turbulence up in the high mountains tends to be worse, so you have to have better than average weather. But, get it on a good day, and it is a sight to behold!! Some of the most beautiful scenery in the world!

 

[Tantalum]

Also, since you may have to fly as high as 13,000' you may want/need some oxygen. And, the wind and turbulence up in the high mountains tends to be worse, so you have to have better than average weather. But, get it on a good day, and it is a sight to behold!! Some of the most beautiful scenery in the world!

O2 would be a must. The scenery would definitely be incredible. Even at airliner altitudes on clear days it's beautiful down there. I can only imagine the views from 13K

 

[midlifeflyer]

I did a search and couldn't find anything from the last few months, but pardon if this is a repost, just point me to the right thread

Was thinking of doing some longer cross country flights out towards CO and UT, was plotting some routes to Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountain, Lake Havasu, etc. and was impressed with some of the altitudes on the charts. The 172N has a ceiling of 13,5 but it honestly starts to feel quite slugging by the time I get to 9K on a hot day

So... for people who live in the rockies, what is flying and getting your license like there? I can only imagine a Cherokee 140 on a hot day from some place like Granby http://www.airnav.com/airport/KGNB

Or is flying in those parts relegated more to commercial ops or where most people getting their license already have their own turbo planes with O2, etc.

You've gotten some good responses but here's an example of knowledge you probably have but haven't needed to think about:

That 13,500 service ceiling? That's 13,500 density altitude. So what is the density altitude at 9K on that hot day? Let's not make it really hot. Just a nice comfortable 85F.

 

[Tantalum]

That's 13,500 density altitude.

Excellent point. Might explain why 9K felt sluggish to me that day... if my math is right the DA that day was closer to 11K at 9K MSL

 

[Mtns2Skies]

You don't need a turbo to fly in CO. That's 13,900' in a 160hp 172. It wanted to go higher but I didn't have O2.

 

[Tantalum]

You don't need a turbo to fly in CO. That's 13,900' in a 160hp 172.

Cool pic! What were the other conditions like? Looks like a high pressure day.. very impressive though! My old CFI claimed he got a 152 up to 15K once... no pic to prove it though!

 

[citizen5000]

Highest I've been in GA was 11,5 in SR20. Never had the 172N over 9K because haven't really had the need to and it felt comfortable in the 7,5-8,5 range. My next XC that is 200 NM each way I'll see what the real world performance is like up there though

You definitely don't want to go over the Rockies in the summer then (and really most of the winter). Even if you get into a mountain pass you can get hit with mountain wave or a rotor and get into trouble. Small planes crash around Denver all the time.

You should go north of Utah or South of Colorado to be safe.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

You definitely don't want to go over the Rockies in the summer then (and really most of the winter). Even if you get into a mountain pass you can get hit with mountain wave or a rotor and get into trouble. Small planes crash around Denver all the time.

You should go north of Utah or South of Colorado to be safe.

While it is definitely safest to go North or South. There's no reason you can't fly in the high Rockies in the Summer or Winter. Yes it definitely MUST be respected and you must have knowledge about it. Any summer morning is perfect for mountain flying while it's still cool and calm. Winters you need to avoid IMC and high winds aloft.

 

[murphey]

Tantalum,

Living and flying up here doesn't require a turbo. It does require proper planning and is less forgiving of mistakes. If you fly a southern route you can navigate around and up to the Denver area without having to deal too much with mountains and passes. However, once you are up here you will have to consider density altitude and performance for your plane. When I got back into flying, I was flying a 172 at KAPA. I still remember my first take off roll with that plane and my instructor. Throttle to the firewall, airspeed climbing, seemingly way too much runway going by - I look to my instructor a few times - I am contemplating aborting the takeoff - the instructor says "it'll fly.... just be patient". You will use a lot of runway on a warm day. I got my rating in Oklahoma - so my experience was lower altitudes and no worries about density altitudes. Different story here.

This is a beautiful part of the country to fly in. You just have to know what your plane can do and you have to plan. I also highly recommend the Mountain Flying Course - it helps with flight planning and the praticality of flying in the mountains. I did a XC from Denver to West Yellowstone and was not challenged with terrain - mostly because of the route I chose to fly.

Good luck with your decision and your flying!

Dean

West Yellowstone-was that the CPA flyin last year? Missed it, had to work. IIRC, my flight plan never went over 9500 ft.

I remember the OSH back to Denver trip. Even with 3 adults and gear, it was bat outta h*ll, some thing I hadn't experienced in the cherokee before!

To agree with the other Colorado members here...even an hour or two with a mountain CFI will benefit you. Always fly mornings, plan to be on the ground in time for lunch. I know people with LSAs that go to Granby and Leadville. Takes planning and awareness of the weather.

www.coloradopilots.org

and check out the mountain course details. Next one is June 24. Another one in late August.

 

[murphey]

You've gotten some good responses but here's an example of knowledge you probably have but haven't needed to think about:

That 13,500 service ceiling? That's 13,500 density altitude. So what is the density altitude at 9K on that hot day? Let's not make it really hot. Just a nice comfortable 85F.

There's an electric sign at the entrance to the taxi ways at KAPA that displays the current DA at field level (5800 msl). Not just common, but expected, to see 8500 in the summer afternoons. 68-7200 in the morning.

 

[azblackbird]

You definitely don't want to go over the Rockies in the summer then (and really most of the winter). Even if you get into a mountain pass you can get hit with mountain wave or a rotor and get into trouble. Small planes crash around Denver all the time. You should go north of Utah or South of Colorado to be safe.

Yep... many CFIT crashes due to some poor soul getting sucked into a 1k+ fpm whirlpool/eddy and only having a 100fpm climb rate due to the maxing out his (normally aspirated) airplane's limits. It's bad enough flying in a complex turbo and hitting those pools.

 

[citizen5000]

While it is definitely safest to go North or South. There's no reason you can't fly in the high Rockies in the Summer or Winter. Yes it definitely MUST be respected and you must have knowledge about it. Any summer morning is perfect for mountain flying while it's still cool and calm. Winters you need to avoid IMC and high winds aloft.

He said he can't get higher than 9k. That won't work since almost everything in the middle of the Rockies is far higher and as I said if tries to thread the needle in the passes he can get nailed by downdrafts from mountain wave or rotors. But each to his own.

 

[midlifeflyer]

He said he can't get higher than 9k. That won't work since almost everything in the middle of the Rockies is far higher and as I said if tries to thread the needle in the passes he can get nailed by downdrafts from mountain wave or rotors. But each to his own.

It's not all about power. There is also knowledge and experience, neither of which @Tantalum appears to have at this point. And that makes it more dangerous than sheer altitude.

On the one hand "powerful" light aircraft have regularly crashed in the Rockies due to lack of knowledge or skill on the part of the pilots. On the other, there are folks successfully flying LSAs in the Rockies. My very first mountain flight, about 3 months before I moved to Colorado, was in a 150 HP C172K based at Leadville (just under 10,000 msl). On a business trip, I had the opportunity to fly a 145 HP 172H, I flew "turns around a point", the "point" being the top of Mt Hood (11.250 msl). Although I definitely preferred more power for mountain flights, I have given dual into the Rockies (including landing at Leadville in normally aspirated 180 HP Skyhawks.

 

[Clark1961]

He said he can't get higher than 9k. That won't work since almost everything in the middle of the Rockies is far higher and as I said if tries to thread the needle in the passes he can get nailed by downdrafts from mountain wave or rotors. But each to his own.

A 180 hp 172N will go well over 9k. We've seen evidence here of at least one in the Alpha airspace. If one follows the rules and climbs above the terrain before heading towards it then usually they will be okay in winds below 25 knots or so. If you can't climb high enough then go somewhere else. I usually use a minimum of 1,000' clearance but it depends on conditions. If the convection has already started I might wait for more clearance before turning toward high ground. Besides it's fun to try to find the thermals and get all the climb assist you can get.

Yes winds and weather must be respected. We avoid flying small aircraft on windy days and avoid summer afternoons to stay away from the downdrafts. Rotors are their own special creatures and we avoid flying under mountain wave and downwind of peaks and ridges to avoid them when we can. Of course the glider guys fly through them to get to the wave but we all know they are insane.

In summary I appreciate your cautious approach but believe the 180 hp 172 is a bit more capable than you suggest. I have a little bit of experience in the hills and suggest there may be one or two or more ways to mitigate risks. Nothing special about the methods and I think most mountain flying courses will cover them. Maybe they don't cover the bit about using thermals to climb but they should cover using ridge lift to climb. They definitely should talk about required terrain clearance before approaching.

 

[Tantalum]

He said he can't get higher than 9k.

Didn't say I "couldn't" get past 9K, just that I haven't taken the 172N higher than that. Have had the SR20 up to 11,5 though... so don't think I'd have problem with the altitude personally. Just that the 172N, even with the 180hp conversion, seems to have tapered off around 9K. But as someone else said the DA that day, if I go back and do the math, was probably closer to 11K or 12K equivalent... which, with 3 people on board, would make sense why the performance would have tapered off there for me

There is also knowledge and experience, neither of which @Tantalum appears to have at this point.

Correct. I have book some book knowledge and a fair amount overall experience... but mountains are a new thing to me. Where I grew up flying it was mostly flat and mountain waves and rotors were something you read about in books but never really contended with. In SoCal however if you want to do any kind of non-coastal flying (which is often the case due to marine layer, mission, etc.) you are going to have some mountains to work around. So I have some working knowledge and friendly respect for mountains... and I do know that even on a calm and variable day you can have a surprising amount of turbulence near ridges and passes. Turb never bothered me, but it does make the ride less pleasant, and non pilot pax tend to really be bothered by turbulence in the small planes we fly. So I'm definitely not ready to launch the 172N out into an epic cross country journey out to Denver.. at least not yet. Some day would be fun to explore those areas, they seem beautiful

 

[Tantalum]

I usually use a minimum of 1,000' clearance but it depends on conditions.

I've been trying to give 2K where able... even that out the front window looks odd when you're cruising along at 8,5 and you *know* you'll have 1,500 clearance over that ridge, but looking out the front window it seems almost eye level with you from about 10 miles away...

the 180 hp 172 is a bit more capable than you suggest

It's a surprisingly capable plane actually. I tend to be a very careful pilot though, maybe more than is reasonable at times, primarily because this is purely a hobby at this point and there's no reason to risk it or become a statistic that will only further the public's ill opinion of GA. I'm sure I could get it up to 13,5 or in that neighborhood. It's just that I've never tried it nor felt the need to really push the engine. Once above pattern altitude I tend to reduce the climb to about 500 FPM to build some speed and bring the throttle down to about 2450 - 2500 to go easier on the engine <- but that's flying the plane very gingerly

 

[citizen5000]

As you sense, flying in mountains requires experience. And flying in the Rockies requires the most mountain flying experience. You can test your skills in San Diego with your Cessna going back and forth over the S Sierras from Chino to Las Vegas. There you will get both peaks and DA and winds. And have short single file ranges to clear. Yes. Flying small planes in the mountains is entirely possible. Even SLSAs can do it if correct planning and sit awareness is maintained.

 

[azblackbird]

I tend to be a very careful pilot though, maybe more than is reasonable at times, primarily because this is purely a hobby at this point and there's no reason to risk it or become a statistic that will only further the public's ill opinion of GA.

Good attitude!

 

[Clark1961]

I've been trying to give 2K where able... even that out the front window looks odd when you're cruising along at 8,5 and you *know* you'll have 1,500 clearance over that ridge, but looking out the front window it seems almost eye level with you from about 10 miles away...

The way to tell if you're above the ridge is one important thing in mountain flight training...

 

[Lachlan]

I would imagine you're not going to see to many non-turbo planes flying on an 80° summer day. And yes it can get hot in the rockies during the summer.

Have you actually taken a lesson yet, or are you just teaching everyone else how to fly?

 

[murphey]

I would imagine you're not going to see to many non-turbo planes flying on an 80° summer day. And yes it can get hot in the rockies during the summer.

Wrong. 80 is a lovely day to fly around here.Think more Flagstaff or Prescott than Phoenix.

 

[azblackbird]

Wrong. 80 is a lovely day to fly around here.Think more Flagstaff or Prescott than Phoenix.

Think FLG vs. TEX or LXV on an 80° day and let me know what your numbers are.

 

[murphey]

Think FLG vs. TEX or LXV on an 80° day and let me know what your numbers are.

Never been to TEX. Leadville? Got my certificate in June, many years ago. Not exactly a cool spring day, either. With 2 others on board. Learn how to to fly out here, no problems.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Never been to TEX. Leadville? Got my certificate in June, many years ago. Not exactly a cool spring day, either. With 2 others on board. Learn how to to fly out here, no problems.

Exactly. Just takes an understanding of the effects of DA, knowing your aircraft and having a safety margin.

I've done TEX in August in a sub-200hp non turbo. I don't recall the exact OAT, but it was at least mid to upper 70s, if not 80. It was hardly a hair raising experience, but I was alone in the airplane and well under gross and I had done the math beforehand.

 

[azblackbird]

It was hardly a hair raising experience, but I was alone in the airplane and well under gross and I had done the math beforehand.

As most guys probably are that wish to play around in the high hills in a small non-turbo aircraft on a hot Rocky Mt. summer day.

 

[murphey]

As most guys probably are that wish to play around in the high hills in a small non-turbo aircraft on a hot Rocky Mt. summer day.

The Master of All Matters Aviation has spoken. The rest of us are ignorant and must accept our failings.

 

[N659HB]

Just make sure your AoA is installed before heading out.