Color Blindness

U

Unregistered

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Hello, I just passed my class 3 medical with the exception of the color-blindness test (6 plates). I am not color blind, my AMA was not very helpful, but apparently I have options to retake the test or do an operational test. I was wondering if someone could walk me through the process of getting the "no night or signal flying" restriction removed from my certificate. I have done a little homework and am pretty sure I can pass the farnsworth lantern test and/or a operational medical test. I am located in Houston, TX, and would really appreciate if anyone is local to the area to point me where/who to talk to in order to get this process started. Thanks in advance...
 
Dr. Bruce is the guy to answer this question. His information and help has gotten quite a few airmen over a hurdle such as this.

If he doesn't check in during the lunch period, he's usually on around 7:00pm to 10:00pm.


A question for you, Unreg... You said you passed. Was the medical actually issued to you before you left the office? And did you know about the potential color blindness going in or was this a surprise? (the latter question goes toward being as prepared for this medical as you would your oral exam and checkride)
 
Passed meaning I was issued the certificate with the restriction. Sorry if that was unclear. I have no history of color blindness and have never had issues seeing or identifying colors in the 26 years I have been alive. This was a complete surprise...
 
A quick search on "color blind" turns up quite a few threads - there is a fair amount of information on issues with how the test is conducted (state of the plates, ambient lighting, etc. )
 
Unregistered said:
This was a complete surprise...
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Which is why I repeat the following to all airmen now that we are made to use the online MedXpress system.

A very important tip. After completing the MedXpress form online, you will be presented with the "Confirmation Code" that the AME uses to find your form in the database. You will also be given the chance to print out (and save) the PDF file.
  1. Print out this PDF File
  2. Cut off the confirmation code that appears at the bottom of both pages
  3. Carry this code in your pocket or wallet.
  4. When you go to the AME's office, hand him (or staff) the PDF printout only. Do not hand over the code.
  5. Allow the doctor to conduct the exam based on the information on the PDF printout.
  6. If the doctor says he is able and willing to issue your certificate right then and there, that's when you hand over the code.
  7. If the doctor says there is something that prevents him from issuing you certificate, do not hand over the code.

The point is that while you have the code in your possession, the examination is considered a consultation and not an "all or nothing" event. If the AME finds a show stopper, you have the chance to deal with it without the FAA officially knowing of the problem until you have a chance to figure out the problem and bring whatever the FAA will want to see to make it a "non-problem". You cannot be deferred or worse, denied, while in consultative mode and in possession of the code in your pocket.

Only until you surrender code is the exam official. And only do that once the AME has said he will issue you the certificate.

If he refuses to conduct the exam without the code first. Find another AME.​
Unreg, I know it's too late, but others can learn from the experience. If the confirmation code was withheld, your "surprise" of not having the sufficient color perception would have come out during the consultative phase and not be recorded on your medical. Providing you with the opportunity to deal the situation, re-apply, and possibly obtain an unrestricted medical.

For others, heed the advice of withholding the code. It might save you some difficulty with the FAA and prevent the need to unring varius bells.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
there is a fair amount of information on issues with how the test is conducted (state of the plates, ambient lighting, etc. )
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Ahh! Very true. If the condition of the book was not the best, and/or the test was conducted under any lighting but daylight, there is a chance the test was tilted against Unreg.

Unreg, you might see if they would permit you to try again (dry run, practice) with you and the nurse standing outdoors.
 
SkyHog said:
Its easy to cheat the test. Just cheat.
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No, it's not easy.
unregistered said:
I am not color blind,
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No, you're not, you are a deuteranope, and have difficulty with purple vs magenta and shades.

I have attached the current federal standard. About five years ago I drilled and drilled an 18 year old Triltanope (even worse than you) and he passed the OCVT First Class. Never has to worry about color dots or TOUGH to find alternative tests again. That took about 12 hours of time to get it, and he nearly blew it on the final approach- when asked to tell the color of one of the MALSR 1000 foot lights. Then he said, "oh you mean THAT one, it's blue". THAT is not gaming. THAT IS, color vision adequate for airman duties, the current standard.

Adequate preparation is what you will need.
How do I know? I possess the waiver. I don't need it in daylight, but in the fluorescent lighted red-deficient environment of an office (FAA and the AMEs almost all use T9 tubes) I'll fail.

A few minutes I did an airman who passed because we went outside.
 

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bb - so from my interpretation, I should go to my optometrist, take (and hopefully pass) the Dvorine 15 plate test, and have a letter from the optometrist stating I passed. From there, I take the letter with my restricted certificate back to my AMA and they will re-issue without restriction? Then I don't need to mess with an OCVT...

Did I read that right?
 
Unregistered said:
Hello, I just passed my class 3 medical with the exception of the color-blindness test (6 plates). I am not color blind, my AMA was not very helpful, but apparently I have options to retake the test or do an operational test. I was wondering if someone could walk me through the process of getting the "no night or signal flying" restriction removed from my certificate. I have done a little homework and am pretty sure I can pass the farnsworth lantern test and/or a operational medical test. I am located in Houston, TX, and would really appreciate if anyone is local to the area to point me where/who to talk to in order to get this process started. Thanks in advance...
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Welcome to the club, I used to trace the patterns and name the PMA colors of the dots, I'm a custom color photo printer:rolleyes: The first issue is usually the AMEs have old books and give the test under improper light conditions (have to be given under 5500°K "Daylight" light source). Finally the other year my AME I've been using for the last 10 years sent me to the eye doc across the street for an exam and said "What he says goes forever." I went, got 5 color tests and passed them all including Ichi Hara. Now we don't bother with it anymore. You also have the option of a Farnsworth Lantern test, or going to the FSDO and taking a a light gun test and getting a SODA (statement of demonstrated ability) which is good for life as well.
 
Henning said:
Welcome to the club, I used to trace the patterns and name the PMA colors of the dots, I'm a custom color photo printer:rolleyes: The first issue is usually the AMEs have old books and give the test under improper light conditions (have to be given under 5500°K "Daylight" light source). Finally the other year my AME I've been using for the last 10 years sent me to the eye doc across the street for an exam and said "What he says goes forever." I went, got 5 color tests and passed them all including Ichi Hara. Now we don't bother with it anymore. You also have the option of a Farnsworth Lantern test, or going to the FSDO and taking a a light gun test and getting a SODA (statement of demonstrated ability) which is good for life as well.
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The "good for life" Statements of demonstrated performance (edited) all went away in 2010, Henning. Dr. Arlene Sanger saw to that. Never lose you copy. They don't do new ones anymore.

Here's the official current list of the aceptable alternate tests. They are HARD to find due to cost. And you will be seeking them you entire life.
 

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bbchien said:
The "good for life" Statements of demonstrated ability all went away in 2010, Henning. Dr. Arlene Sanger saw to that. Never lose you copy. They don't do new ones anymore.

Here's the official current list of the aceptable alternate tests. They are HARD to find due to cost. And you will be seeking them you entire life.
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I don't have the SODA, mine is a private deal with my AME who fortunately also does my USCG physicals as well as my MCA ENG1 (British rules) physical as he is one of the two docs in the country authorized to do so. Good to his word he honors the deal for all three.
 
Matthew said:
I thought you were either color blind or you weren't. If that's the case, why retest?
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There are many levels and varieties of 'colorblind', kinda like 'the flu' is not one thing either. Most docs don't understand the limitations of the tests they give nor the conditions they should be given under. As I said, I can fail with old yellowed pages under a fluorescent light yet pass fine with a crisp page under the stated testing light conditions. Many of the pages I can see 2 or 3 pattern sets depending on the delineation the tester wants me to use.
 
I did a little research after I asked that question and can now understand why the test is regiven.

My AME uses a machine and color cards that look like they've been through a war...and not any of the most recent ones either. I can understand why an AME wouldn't wan't to invest in more recent vintage equipment that actually tests properly. Given that - just what would be involved in outsourcing that test? My eye doc is also a pilot - how difficult is it just to tell my AME that I'd like a fair test (using equipment that is actually in spec)?
 
Well, if the filaments are recent, the light source at least doesn't contaminate the colors. Any AME office that show you the dots only by fluorescents.....well never hear of Dr. Ishihara's 1962 publication that came WITH the dots.
 
Matthew said:
I did a little research after I asked that question and can now understand why the test is regiven.

My AME uses a machine and color cards that look like they've been through a war...and not any of the most recent ones either. I can understand why an AME wouldn't wan't to invest in more recent vintage equipment that actually tests properly. Given that - just what would be involved in outsourcing that test? My eye doc is also a pilot - how difficult is it just to tell my AME that I'd like a fair test (using equipment that is actually in spec)?
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Cost me $45 and I got a full eye exam along with the color test.
 
bbchien said:
The "good for life" Statements of demonstrated ability all went away in 2010, Henning. Dr. Arlene Sanger saw to that. Never lose you copy. They don't do new ones anymore.

Here's the official current list of the aceptable alternate tests. They are HARD to find due to cost. And you will be seeking them you entire life.
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Dr. Bruce, is that true for all SODAs? I still have mine (for a different condition than color blindness). Will I ever need to redo?
 
Sorry, Ben, I miss typed. I meant Statement of demonstrated performance, not ability. Sigh.

A SODA is different from a statement of demonstrated performance. The SODA is recorded in OKC. The statement of demonstrated ability really got pushed by the young ERAU grads who didn't want to check the box on the employment questionnaire, that they had a SODA. So they had this letter from the FAA noting that they had performed to standard and the letters said to present them to the AME. The letters were not "in system".

Medical standards canned the whole process when action was taken ten+ years downstream from the FedEx Talahassee accident, where the agency could no longer resist "apparent safety" change.
 
bbchien said:
Sorry, Ben, I miss typed. I meant Statement of demonstrated performance, not ability. Sigh.

A SODA is different from a statement of demonstrated performance. The SODA is recorded in OKC. The statement of demonstrated ability really got pushed by the young ERAU grads who didn't want to check the box on the employment questionnaire, that they had a SODA. So they had this letter from the FAA noting that they had performed to standard and the letters said to present them to the AME. The letters were not "in system".

Medical standards canned the whole process when action was taken ten+ years downstream from the FedEx Talahassee accident, where the agency could no longer resist "apparent safety" change.
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Thanks, Dr. Bruce!
 
At my last renewal, my AME put me on a DMV-style machine and, to my surprise and horror, I couldn't pass either the acuity or color tests.

He then pulled out the old book of dots and I did fine on the colors, even under the flourescents. He then had me stand at the tape in the hallway and read the old-school paper eye chart, and I was better than 20/20.

There is something about the combination of my glasses and his machine that didn't work. It annoys me, because I can't be the first guy to experience that issue.
 
You're not.
I fired my titmus 2000 vision tester, long ago and it sits up in the attic....
Astigmatics have a terrible time with the machine.
 
Just happened across this board by accident, but the topice sure caught my attention. I to am Red/Green weak, and had the night flying restriction on my medical. But I have a waiver of demonstrated ability that was very easy to do, (back in 1982 anyway). I filed some papers with the DesMoines office of the FAA, they set up an appointment, and I went there to meet with an inspector after sunset. He had me look at the beacon and tell him what colors were flashing by, then he had the tower shoot a series of light signals, and that was that. Very simple process that took all of about 20 minutes.

Good Luck.
 
bbchien said:
No, it's not easy.
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Doc, depending on the test, it is very easy. I won't go into more detail (for a number of reasons), but I will say to the OP: If the doc uses the flip book test, open your eyes, look REALLY closely, and you'll find the answer you're looking for, in an unexpected location.

Good luck passing a part of your medical is genuinely a useless measure of ability.
 
SkyHog said:
Doc, depending on the test, it is very easy. I won't go into more detail (for a number of reasons), but I will say to the OP: If the doc uses the flip book test, open your eyes, look REALLY closely, and you'll find the answer you're looking for, in an unexpected location.
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How do you know what the planet actually looks like to someone else? How self confident is generalizing your situation to "everyone else"? How can you tell from your keyboard what cues the other guy actually can pick up?
Good luck passing a part of your medical is genuinely a useless measure of ability.
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AMEN to the latter.
 
bbchien said:
How do you know what the planet actually looks like to someone else? How self confident is generalizing your situation to "everyone else"? How can you tell from your keyboard what cues the other guy actually can pick up?AMEN to the latter.
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...I guess you are right. But the advice still stands from an "unknowing' individual who has been through only two of these tests and has never failed.
 
Dr. Bruce - OP here - I was able to pass the Ishihara 24 plate test (only missed 1) and get a letter stating I passed the FAA requirement from my optometrist. My AME acted like this was unprecedented and was confused - needing to verify with the RFS. My question - to mainly facilitate for both of us - is what needs to be done now that I have already been issued the certificate (submitted to medxpress or whatever the FAA site is) with the restriction? Do I need to mail this to the FAA, or can the AME re-issue? I am lost on step 2, and my AME seems to not know the rules...I don't want to get screwed out of being able to fly at night. Thanks again for all the kind support.
 
If he has already put in that you missed six plates, your only option is to wait 60 days and re-examine (the computer will prevent reissue before then, unless the f/on AME calls the agency).

Question: Did you do it in a daylit room? Is there reason to believe you will do better on the second round? Did he offer you the dvorines (slightly easier for some, harder for others), or the AO plates?

The restriction is not permanent, if/when you find a test you can pass it will be issued without the restriction. The agency is very used to seeing this on sequential exams.
 
Dr Bruce - I took the 6 plate test on the original examination - I was looking through a beige (poorly) backlit device. Sorry, but I didn't catch the specifics of the machine. It was the same machine used to test my vision acuity. I was not offered an alternative, and being that I have no known history of color blindness, I was not prepared with information to combat this issue.

Will I do better in the second round? - Not on that machine.

Another question for you - will my optometrist's endorsement hold valid in 60 days when I go to re-test, or will my AME test me again using the same machine?

To clarify - I took the Ishihara 24 plate test at my optometrist's office today and only missed 1 plate. I have a certified signed letter endorsed by the optometrist detailing my results.

Thanks!
 
Unregistered said:
Dr Bruce - I took the 6 plate test on the original examination - I was looking through a beige (poorly) backlit device. Sorry, but I didn't catch the specifics of the machine. It was the same machine used to test my vision acuity. I was not offered an alternative, and being that I have no known history of color blindness, I was not prepared with information to combat this issue.

Will I do better in the second round? - Not on that machine.

Another question for you - will my optometrist's endorsement hold valid in 60 days when I go to re-test, or will my AME test me again using the same machine?

To clarify - I took the Ishihara 24 plate test at my optometrist's office today and only missed 1 plate. I have a certified signed letter endorsed by the optometrist detailing my results.

Thanks!
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I fired my Titmus 2000 vision tester as it was too hard on many airmen. It was pricey to keep new slides (unfaded).

If the AME didn't know what the letter was about at your last exam, he will not know about it at the upcoming exam either.

In the Ishihara 24 you are not allowed to miss any (and that is the real issue). On the Ishihara Concise, you can miss two figures in the first seven.

As for doing something about missing the one, the QUESTION is did you view the plates in DAYLIGHT, or in the red deficient environment of a fluorescent lit room?
 
bbchien said:
The restriction is not permanent, if/when you find a test you can pass it will be issued without the restriction. The agency is very used to seeing this on sequential exams.
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Wish I could find my old certificate from when I passed the yarn test every year back in the day for the USAF. :D.

Cheers
 
Sigh.

This happened to me. Still haven't dealt with getting the restriction lifted. Maybe at my next medical.
 
Dr bruce - I tried to reply last night but I guess posting a link gets the post deleted if you are unreg. If you see 2 responses, thats why...According to the FAA website section 52, on the ishihara 24 plate test, failing is missing 7 or more of the first 15 plates. Am I reading it wrong, or are you working off of different and more current information? I took the test in fluorescent light of the doctors office. I didn't worry about missing one plate because I thought I was allowed to miss up to 6 and pass FAA standards. This is for class 3 medical.
 
.....wll here it is, thank you for looking.
Your difficulty is entirely with fluoresecent light. You need to find an AME who understands that.
 

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Thank you again for your assistance Dr. Bruce. I will seek a certificate from a different AME after my 60 days has passed if my current AME will not admit this letter as evidence that I meet the standard.
 
bbchien said:
You're not.
I fired my titmus 2000 vision tester, long ago and it sits up in the attic....
Astigmatics have a terrible time with the machine.
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Explains it for me, too! I was wondering why things were more blurry than usual... I barely passed my vision test, and only with heavy squinting to bring things into somewhat better focus. My vision without corrective lenses is good enough for 3rd class medical, but I wear them while flying anyway. I just wanted to pass without the restriction.
 
I can't see anything even closely resembling numbers in the Ishihara plates...lighting doesn't help, computer screens, actual photographs, nothing. My AME has the Farnsworth Lantern test and that I could pass pretty easily. I've always been fully confident I could differentiate between red and green light signals...it's the subtle variations in colors that are difficult. The only real issue the color deficiency problem seems to cause for me is on sectional charts. Very, very difficult to distinguish the magenta from the blue.
 
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