Coldest temp to fly in

mandm

mandm

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It’s cold here in Chicago. We have a high of 10 degrees today going to -5 tonight. How cold can you fly in? I talked to my instructor who canceled all lessons and rentals for today but the planes are kept in the heated hangar. So what temp can you fly in without causing issues to the engine? Yes I know no one wants to be outside in the cold but if your plane is in a heated hangar and you take it out, start it, do some local practice, come back without stopping the engine elsewhere, is that bad for the engine or perfectly alright?
 
I’ve flown piston airplanes to -40, but I won’t guarantee it wasn’t hard on the airplane.
 
mandm said:
It’s cold here in Chicago. We have a high of 10 degrees today going to -5 tonight. How cold can you fly in? I talked to my instructor who canceled all lessons and rentals for today but the planes are kept in the heated hangar. So what temp can you fly in without causing issues to the engine? Yes I know no one wants to be outside in the cold but if your plane is in a heated hangar and you take it out, start it, do some local practice, come back without stopping the engine elsewhere, is that bad for the engine or perfectly alright?
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These airplane fly in much colder weather than that. I can't think of a reason why cold air would be hard on the engine, as long as it is kept warm in a hangar prior to start. The biggest question is, if you have to make an emergency landing, will you be able to survive the cold until help comes?
 
You'll get lots of opinions on this. I personally don't feel that there is a one size fits all answer.

I would guess 2/3 of my primary training was done at temperatures below 0F. There was not a huge concern expressed about breaking the airplane or engine. It can be pretty cold at altitude even in the summer and nobody expresses concerns about flying then.
 
You might want to take a look at this thread, as its pretty much the same topic.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/chts-running-cold.136408/

Our general rule of thumb around here that most follow is no pattern work below 10F, and not flying below 0F.

Can it be done? Sure and people do. Is it worth the extra wear and tear on not just the engine, but all other parts of the aircraft as well? Up to you? Metal and plastic get brittle. Lubrication on moving parts isn't as good. Tolerances between materials may change. The engine may be warmed up and fair just fine, then you snap the door handle off closing the door.

Certainly make sure you consider the survival aspect to the occupants. As I said in the other post, "A survivable off-airport landing can quickly become a life and death scenario if help doesn't get to you soon enough."
 
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Around 0f plastic breaks, pilots have issues, just not fun, if you want me to fly in that

 
I flew today. We did 7 landings, but all taxi backs. No emergency procedures or steep spirals, but several power off 180s… The AI and DG were super unhappy though (or about to die). My other club says it must be over 10F for flights, no closed throttle ops below 15F, and no touch and goes below 20F. It seems like a reasonable rule.

That being said, at altitude, I’ve definitely flown in -10, -20 stuff…
 
Much is in the oil temp, use some type of blocker or so, get it near normal operating temps.

I may not park anywhere besides back at the home field, besides a gas pump. If on an overnight, I’ll take my preflight protocols with me.
 
When I flew at temps between 0F-10F, I just made sure that the oil temps were staying up. Which means sitting and waiting for them to come up before take-off, and then making sure they're staying up throughout the course of the flight. Of course, the plane I flew had a winterization kit installed on it, to help keep the engine warmer when flying in such cold temps.
 
we flew pistons down to -40, no doubt once it gets below zero things start to break and its rough on the equipment. If I had a plane I wouldn’t fly it much below 10 or 15.

YMMV
 
+40°F for this open cockpit aviator, and that's a short flight.
 
SkyChaser said:
When I flew at temps between 0F-10F, I just made sure that the oil temps were staying up. Which means sitting and waiting for them to come up before take-off, and then making sure they're staying up throughout the course of the flight. Of course, the plane I flew had a winterization kit installed on it, to help keep the engine warmer when flying in such cold temps.
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That there. If the oil doesn't get warm, the moisture from water vapor in the blowby that got into the crankcase doesn't get driven off and out the breather, and you end up with water staying the the case and causing serious corrosion. For that reason, circuits are not wise.

We used to fly down to -25C, which is about -13°F. It's no fun at that temp, but on the Canadian Prairies in the winter you might not fly much if you have to have temps much warmer than that.

And as midwestPA24 said, think about survival. If you have to force-land in a field a mile from a farmhouse at -20°C and with a 20-kt wind, your chances of dying are really good if you aren't dressed for it. Even if you are dressed for it but have to wade through two feet of snow for that mile, you could be in trouble. There have been way too many accidents in which the occupants survived the landing with little or no injuries, but died of hypothermia. Even in the summer, on a clear, cooler night. It's no joke.
 
Dana said:
+40°F for this open cockpit aviator, and that's a short flight.
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Years ago I saw something in the newspaper about the Polar Bear Club going swimming on Jan 1. I decided to go flying (open cockpit) on Jan 2. 0 degrees, not smart.
 
The flight school I learned to fly at would only rent their planes down to 10°f. They would put a little sign on the counter to that affect when it got real cold.
Not sure if they trained in them under 10°?

One Sat morning early I showed up to rent at 8am, it was 7°f. The guy working the counter said to me, it'll be over 10° when you get back in 2 hours, right? lol

I found out mostly from my wife that it was too cold to fly because the doors and windows seals leaked a bunch.
 
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I'd say 0°f is my lower limit for my own 172.
I flew it last Fri night on a 1.5hr XC at 10°f. Then 1.5 hr on the way back in the dark at 6500 and FF. Plus I had my buddy in his Cherokee following me. I have lot's of survival equipment in the plane.
Our plane has was less air leaks and is tolerable at 10°

I have these to install into my cowl to restrict the air flow in this weather. I have to bug my AP to help me do it.

IMG_1116(1).JPG
 
mandm said:
It’s cold here in Chicago. We have a high of 10 degrees today going to -5 tonight. How cold can you fly in? I talked to my instructor who canceled all lessons and rentals for today but the planes are kept in the heated hangar.
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Dang! That's soft.

For example, Lycoming doesn't even require cold weather procedures until 10F and the cold weather manual covers down to -25F with comments about people needing to fly colder checking other materials.

In my opinion it's far more a "when does it stop being fun" thing, than "when does it stop being safe".

I've flown down to -20F and at that point "dressing for the crash" is an awful lot of layers to be aviating in. Since I fly a tail dragger, I need to be able to feel the rudder peddles better than when I flew tri-gear, so I guess the limiting factor for me is when I would have to be wearing boats instead of shoes in the plane. I do, of course, have my boats in the back in case of a forced landing or other issues.

Here I am at -2F two days ago on a frozen lake cooking chili dogs. Maybe that's actually the limiting factor... Can you eat your lunch before it freezes...

IMG_20220123_131606.jpg
 
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I do this for fun, not pay. As I get older I am less motivated to go out and bore holes in the sky if it’s too cold. However, if we are flying to warmer temps and vacation, I’m ready to saddle up and go.
 
rwellner98 said:
Dang! That's soft.

For example, Lycoming doesn't even require cold weather procedures until10F and the cold weather manual covers down to -25F with comments about people needed to fly colder checking other materials.

In my opinion it's far more a "when does it stop being fun" thing, than "when does it stop being safe".

I've flown down to -20F and at that point "dressing for the crash" is an awful lot of layers to be aviating in. Since I fly a tail dragger, I need to be able to feel the rudder peddles better than when I flew tri-gear, so I guess the limiting factor for me is when I would have to be wearing boats instead of shoes in the plane. I do, of course, have my boats in the back in case of a forced landing or other issues.

Here I am at -2F two days ago on a frozen lake cooking chili dogs. Maybe that's actually the limiting factor... Can you eat your lunch before it freezes...

View attachment 104020
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Cool deal!! Get it? lol Great picture!
 
Years ago, I flew my Piper PA-28 in -30c on the ground and -35c aloft. The heater kept up fine until the sun went behind a cloud. :)

(The plane was parked outside, but the Tanis heater still kept the engine compartment warm to the touch under the insulated cover, so there was no problem starting.)
 
Flown in -10F a number 9f times for fun. Climb rates are wicked awesome
 
Depends on how long the preflight is.
 
rwellner98 said:
Dang! That's soft.

For example, Lycoming doesn't even require cold weather procedures until10F and the cold weather manual covers down to -25F with comments about people needed to fly colder checking other materials.

In my opinion it's far more a "when does it stop being fun" thing, than "when does it stop being safe".
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That's generally how I feel about it as well.

Threads about cold weather flying are generally amusing to me and indicative of the climate a person lives in. The cold temperature where people stop flying seems to be more about the temperature at which humans perceive the temperature to be too cold for comfort based on normal temperatures for the area they live in than the likelihood of breaking something on the aircraft. For someone in south Florida that temperature might be 40F while someone in northern Minnesota might say -20F.

After living and flying in northern Minnesota for a few years then moving a bit farther south one thing is very apparent to me - the farther south you go aircraft owners/pilots are generally less prepared to deal with really cold weather because they just don't have to. I'd bet more than 70% of the airplanes on my home airport wouldn't start if the temperature dropped below 10F because no preparations have been made to use them in those temperatures. That may be a built in safety feature in some instances.
 
mondtster said:
Threads about cold weather flying are generally amusing to me and indicative of the climate a person lives in. The cold temperature where people stop flying seems to be more about the temperature at which humans perceive the temperature to be too cold for comfort based on normal temperatures for the area they live in...
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The aircraft is a factor, too. An open cockpit with no heat is different from a closed cabin with an effective heater. Or somewhere in between, the heater in my T-Craft pretty much kept my right foot warm and my passenger's left foot warm, not much more than that.

 
Dana said:
The aircraft is a factor, too. An open cockpit with no heat is different from a closed cabin with an effective heater. Or somewhere in between, the heater in my T-Craft pretty much kept my right foot warm and my passenger's left foot warm, not much more than that.
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Absolutely, I was ignoring the outliers such as these with my comments since I don't believe the majority of the pilots here are flying aircraft like that.

It has been subzero F where I'm at for a while now, which means the aircraft I have to fly that don't have heaters remain in the hangar. I've been getting a bit restless to get them out again but I think there's still a few more weeks to go.
 
-40° and preheating wasn’t fun. Plastic breaks. Metal breaks. Density altitude was several thousand feet BSL. The engine is making a crapton of power and the prop is biting like never before. Preheating and prep was miserable. Takeoff performance was great. The flight was uneventful. Landing was no problem but tying down sucked. Cold winters are why we have airline service.

Flying in cold temps isn’t unlike riding snowmachines in cold weather. My record is -54° for a 70 mile trip. The whole time being careful, because a mistake may be fatal.
 
Hand propping below about 15F has proven problematic for me.
 
Just brought a plane from NC to CA this weekend. Was 14F in NC. I had to buy thermals, hat, and gloves for myself. Plane did just fine. In fact they perform better and LIKE the cold. It's just that startup that feels grunchy if the plane's been sitting awhile -- luckily this one wasn't. Don't worry, you're stealing hours from the end of the engine's life, not the beginning :D

I got my PPL in Superior WI in Nov. I think we did -5 once, but that sucked and we didn't do that again. Preheat and hangar overnights are a big help and worth every expensive penny. Scraping frost off of wings is hard on the paint. :D
 
Stewartb said:
-40° and preheating wasn’t fun. Plastic breaks. Metal breaks. Density altitude was several thousand feet BSL. The engine is making a crapton of power and the prop is biting like never before. Preheating and prep was miserable. Takeoff performance was great. The flight was uneventful. Landing was no problem but tying down sucked. Cold winters are why we have airline service.

Flying in cold temps isn’t unlike riding snowmachines in cold weather. My record is -54° for a 70 mile trip. The whole time being careful, because a mistake may be fatal.
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A friend of mine that worked for a company in Alaska during the mid 70’s tells me about them buying a number of brand new 206’s. When they had the 3rd or 4th crankshaft failure all under 400 hour of usage they had a Continental factory rep visit there facility to determine why the were having premature failures. The result was they determined that the recommend full power take offs in the POH didn’t really apply when the Density altitude was minus 8000ft. And they were taking off with something like 120% rated power. They revised the operating procedures to limit power to a maximum of 100% for take offs and they didn’t have any more crankshaft failures.

I also seem to recall him saying that it pretty much had to be an emergency for them to fly much below -25F
I do recall him telling me about issues of ice forming in the fuel lines at those temperatures.
IIRC.

Brian
 
I'm a little north of you across the border so similar climate, maybe a bit colder. My flight school has the following rules:

In the Cessna 150s: No flight below -15C (5F)
In the Cherokees: No flight below -25C (-13F)

Pattern (or over here "circuits") and power off operations discouraged below -10C (14F) so we usually do simulated engine failures with a little bit of power and 10 degrees of flaps. That's close enough to simulate power at idle for your sink rate.

I have a Cherokee and my personal limit was no flight below -25C (-13F). Well, that limit has changed to -15C (5F) two weeks ago for several reasons.

1. If it's that cold, the heater has a hard time keeping up, especially when descending at a lower power setting.
2. If you had to land off airport, you'd need help fast. Especially when flying with the family, I wouldn't want to expose them to that. Even at -15C, I follow highways to make sure someone is near in case we have to land.
3. Stupid little things break when it's really cold. Your engine is fine in the cold but other things like plastics, instruments, etc. are more likely to act up in really cold weather. While most of the time not a hazard to flight, it's still annoying and not worth it in my opinion.

For me, it was my tachometer that gave up in flight last time I took off at -25C. I don't know if it was really due to the cold or if the instrument was just old and ready to go... But, a week before that flight at around 0C it worked just fine so I'll blame it on the cold since I have to blame something lol.
 
I did my flight review a couple of weeks ago and when I got to the airport I think it was around 4 degrees F. I did a good long preheat. I had to fly about 10 minutes to pick up the CFI on a grass strip. When we got done I think it was about 10 or a hair higher. All I know is pumping gas at that temperature sucks. In our 172 the heat works good enough but not great. I flew in a friends arrow that afternoon. We had to turn the heat down at one point.
 
BladeSlap said:
Plastic becomes more brittle when it gets very cold.
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It also shrinks more than metal. Look at the wingtip fairings on many Cessnas and see that crack along its leading edge. The fairing shrinks and gets big tension on it as it is stretched between the leading and trailing edges. Never buy plastic fairings; get the PMA'd fiberglass fairings from Stene Aviation. Much stronger, less thermal contraction, much easier to repair, and a fraction of the OEM cost. Sometimes a small fraction.
 
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DFH65 said:
I did my flight review a couple of weeks ago and when I got to the airport I think it was around 4 degrees F. I did a good long preheat. I had to fly about 10 minutes to pick up the CFI on a grass strip. When we got done I think it was about 10 or a hair higher. All I know is pumping gas at that temperature sucks. In our 172 the heat works good enough but not great. I flew in a friends arrow that afternoon. We had to turn the heat down at one point.
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Yes,on a full throttle climb-out, the PA-28 will melt your outboard shoe !!
 
BladeSlap said:
Plastic becomes more brittle when it gets very cold.
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So does everything. It doesn't just suddenly and spontaneously decide to "break" at 0F. There are also thousands of types of plastic.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So does everything. It doesn't just suddenly and spontaneously decide to "break" at 0F. There are also thousands of types of plastic.
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Obviously lol, but when it’s put into use, opened, bumped, etc
 
Dan Thomas said:
It also shrinks more than metal. Look at the wingtip fairings on many Cessnas and see that crack along its leading edge. The fairing shrinks and gets big tension on it as it is stretched between the leading and trailing edges. Never buy plastic fairings; get the PMA'd fiberglass fairings from Stene Aviation. Much stronger, less thermal contraction, much easier to repair, and a fraction of the OEM cost. Sometimes a small fraction.
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I don’t have wing fairings :(
 
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