Cold starting lessons and ideas for lycoming io-360 (c1c) and EIS

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xander75

Pre-takeoff checklist
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xander75
hey folks, I just had some new learnings that I thought could benefit folks hence sharing here.
Plane PA28R-200 Lycoming IO-360-C1C with electroair EIS (41000)
To note, when she runs, she runs perfectly fine. Restarting a warm engine, no problem either, it is really that first cold start.

As winter 2024 started to set in Nov/Dec I noticed she was getting a bit harder to start every time. While winter/colder temp starting has always been more challenging
I tried to find ways to make it more reliable.
When she doesn't fire, and you keep trying you aggravate the problem draining the battery especially with an EIS that needs solid voltage and in the end you end up flooding
the engine while it already doesn't have the great tendency to vaporize the fuel at those cold temperatures and a downward spiral is in effect...
It came down to the point for me that I had to follow this precise specific procedure because when deviating, it would ground you for another set of hours.

The ultimate procedure came to be:
- charge battery, while
- plug in EZ heat oil sump
<1 hour>
starting procedure of throttle cracked 1/4", fuel pump on, mix full, wait for fuel pressure, count 5, mix ICO, wait 10 seconds, crank.

This appeared to be a golden method. However if you didn't charge or ez heat it up, you kept on priming, possible flooding and you'd have to wait a little longer for to try again.
the way to over come that is wait another hour, ideally charging and ez heating and then throttle full for flood start. (call it recovery procedure).

Now while ultimately root causing this the following was observed:
EIS requires minimally 60 RPM and 10+ volts on battery.
JPI registered 110-130 rpm so that should be fine. a prop count showed it was at 108 on the lower end.
However the lower voltage appeared to be the crux. Root cause being a old solenoid that had a relative high voltage drop.

the other thing is the EIS I got is the 41000 _not_ the IC one and the impulse magneto was replaced... still grinding that out with electroair.

so couple of things for those in the same boat:
- battery cap check
- solenoid starter
- possibly consider a lithium ion battery (they look appealing!)
- work with EIS for IC module
- if it doesn't work, preheat more to soften the oil for easier cranking
- don't over prime at cold temps, those or any engine need more fuel then air it seems (like a choke on classic cars)

I realize some of mine were EIS related, but hopefully this helps one also in a similar predicament!

cheers!
xander
 
I used to hang a blow dryer off a hook that clamped around the oil breather tube that blew hot air up into the lower cowling for 15-20 minutes. Then, I used normal engine start procedures. This was good down to about 32f, when I started serious preheating measures.
 
What is OAT?

Combustion creates water that can short out plugs.

If it fires once but does but not start heat may be the answer.
 
Magman said:
What is OAT?

Combustion creates water that can short out plugs.

If it fires once but does but not start heat may be the answer.
Click to expand...
It’s what’s OEMs base things off of
 
xander75 said:
Now while ultimately root causing this the following was observed:
EIS requires minimally 60 RPM and 10+ volts on battery.
JPI registered 110-130 rpm so that should be fine. a prop count showed it was at 108 on the lower end.
However the lower voltage appeared to be the crux. Root cause being a old solenoid that had a relative high voltage drop.
Click to expand...
Xander
10+ volts to the ignition during cranking seems a lot to ask of a 12V starting system where the battery is located some distance from the engine, and the negative is not hard wired but relies on frame ground. I had a similar problem with a diesel generator auto start control system. The control was sensitive to voltage drops during cranking. Every compression stroke dropped the voltage so there was a pulsating DC voltage, and initial crank drop was down to about 8.5, but then rolled up to about 10.

One way to solve that problem is to put an isolated capacitor in the power feed to the unit. A diode feeds the capacitor and the capacitor feeds the ignition during the voltage dips. The diode prevents backfeeding to the loaded starter. The capacitor could be a large capacitor or a small storage battery, electrically they are the same. We ended up adding a capacitor/diode and doubling the cranking battery size so the cranking dip was less. You probably can't do that, but you could add an isolated capacitor to the power feed. You could test it as a theory by temporarily wiring up a lawn tractor battery to the ignition feed circuit and see if the cold start problem is improved.

It as just an idea. Hope this helps
 
Last edited:
William Pete Hodges said:
Xander
10+ volts to the ignition during cranking seems a lot to ask of a 12V starting system where the battery is located some distance from the engine, and the negative is not hard wired but relies on frame ground. I had a similar problem with a diesel generator auto start control system. The control was sensitive to voltage drops during cranking. Every compression stroke dropped the voltage so there was a pulsating DC voltage, and initial crank drop was down to about 8.5, but then rolled up to about 10.

One way to solve that problem is to put an isolated capacitor in the power feed to the unit. A diode feeds the capacitor and the capacitor feeds the ignition during the voltage dips. The capacitor could be a large capacitor or a small storage battery, electrically they are the same. We ended up adding a capacitor/diode and doubling the cranking battery size so the cranking dip was less. You probably can't do that, but you could add an isolated capacitor to the power feed. You could test it as a theory by temporarily wiring up a lawn tractor battery to the ignition feed circuit and see if the cold start problem is improved.

It as just an idea. Hope this helps
Click to expand...
totally with you. I think the EIS is rather demanding. I have been thinking about ripping that thing out with all the costly havocs I have had now (broken MTH, burnt coilpack due to failing finewire plug and the hours it costs to diagnose and investigate that btw), for that bit of fuel saving it does, but a new impulse coupled slick runs for about 4-5k easily, so it is not a cheap replacement.

yeah one of the things I have been looking at is a more powerful Li+ battery that is said to be able to provide more stable higher current with less of a voltage drop. I'll first see if the solenoid replacement reduces a bit of that voltage drop and if that provides better cold starting, it looks promising so far.

If anyone is considering an EIS (electroair in this case specifically), leave the impulse couple magneto and replace the non IC one. So you can start on the magneto instead of the EIS, especially for those in colder climates...
 
xander75 said:
totally with you. I think the EIS is rather demanding. I have been thinking about ripping that thing out with all the costly havocs I have had now (broken MTH, burnt coilpack due to failing finewire plug and the hours it costs to diagnose and investigate that btw), for that bit of fuel saving it does, but a new impulse coupled slick runs for about 4-5k easily, so it is not a cheap replacement.

yeah one of the things I have been looking at is a more powerful Li+ battery that is said to be able to provide more stable higher current with less of a voltage drop. I'll first see if the solenoid replacement reduces a bit of that voltage drop and if that provides better cold starting, it looks promising so far.

If anyone is considering an EIS (electroair in this case specifically), leave the impulse couple magneto and replace the non IC one. So you can start on the magneto instead of the EIS, especially for those in colder climates...
Click to expand...
I am sorry you are having so much trouble. If you still have the impulse magneto why not try a swap? It is just an idea.
 
William Pete Hodges said:
I am sorry you are having so much trouble. If you still have the impulse magneto why not try a swap? It is just an idea.
Click to expand...
yeah had I had that one still I would have done it for sure.
electroair continues to claim that this is an ok install: remove IC mag and replace with EIS-41000 but it should have been the EIS-41000IC.
they are also not willing so far to work with me for a replacement of the module to make the system more robust.
as it seems sometimes with certain vendors, once the check is cashed and the good reviews are in, you're on your own :)
 
You are not preheating long enough. Also, do you insulate the cowl when preheating? You can simply use a blanket or sleeping bag. Also, cowl plugs in helps hold the heat in.

You need to preheat for several hours or even overnight. That gets the entire engine and engine compartment warm.

I let more like 20 - 30 seconds after priming before trying to start.
 
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