Cluster in Colorado

People who think fences and biometric gates allow you to know who is on airport grounds are f'n idiots.
 
Bob Noel said:
People who think fences and biometric gates allow you to know who is on airport grounds are f'n idiots.
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Our airport has a sign that says "No unauthorized personnel". To date. We've had no unauthorized personnel at the airport, unless you count the wolves/deer/coyotes.

Seems like more drama than an episode of "As the world turns".... I've yet to find an airport without it. Doesn't seem that a patch of grass/asphalt would be that complicated.
 
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We have a gate with a code, but we have still had break-ins to airplanes. One even had the engine stolen off of it.
 
Murphy posted a link to the Grand Junction City Council meeting where a presentation layed out the issues, revealed a number of "irregularities" in airport management and proposed some reasonable solutions.

Waiting for Paul Harvey's "and now, page 2."
 
You don't need biometric gate controls to access an airport.
The bigger problem is that the airport manager put up a fence with gates that keeps the public away from the airport businesses. Having to get through a gate to inquire about flight training is a big show stopper. Keep the business poor, they fold, and the airport manager has either an easy job or no job.
 
main points of the presentation were:
1. Fence was claimed to have been built based on recommendations of the wildlife assessment. Said assessment did NOT recommend a fence.
2. Fence was claimed to be the ONLY method of security that TSA would accept. Not supported by any documentation.
3. Airport Administration claimed numerous security violations found by TSA and potential fines of $1.25mm or more. Not supported by any documentation.
4. Aircraft mechanics leaving airport due to access issues.
5. No reportability or accountability to elected officials
6. Increasing hostility between airport management and GA pilots
7. Potential loss of tax base, revenue, tower facility, military refuel contracts if airport use continues downhill
8. Non-renewal of leases (hangars) without possibility of communication/explanation of issues or concerns.
9. massive invasion of privacy by airport administration's self-determined need to fingerprint and document all requesting airport access, claiming TSA mandated. Not required by TSA.
all I can recall this late at night after sort of watching the city council presentation last night.

It's a mess.
 
What I can't figure out was KGJT was one of the "good guy" airports during the roll-out of badges at their expense by TSA. They called that odd meeting where the two TSA guys from Denver actually showed up for Q&A session and the Airport manager flame broiled them over the fact that the neighboring ranch's cows break the barbed wire from time to time and he wasn't going to issue the rancher a badge and escort him if he'd come over the line to get the cows off the airport property.

Now they put up security fences to keep people out and AFAIK the barbed wire is still all that keeps the cows out.

Something changed. There's a smell of grant money somewhere. Haven't figured out where yet.

A little digging into the security system contract and relationships would turn up where the change of heart happened, I suspect. Can't say for certain though. Pressure from somewhere.
 
I'd like to report that lawyers are involved on both sides of the "discussion" but that's not true. Lawyers are involved, and have been involved for months, on MULTIPLE sides of the discussion.
 
I went out in the Malibu to Grand Junction last Monday to do a pre-purchase. The locals are mad and it's really causing problems for GA. It is an impressive bunch of gates and fences. While heading out of the FBO I saw an airport employee blocking one of the expensive malfunctioning gates with his truck.

Kevin
 
Stopped by the airport a couple years ago to see a friend at Weststar. Two days later day we drove through Canon City on our way home. The supposedly-public portion of the airport appeared to be much more heavily fenced fortified than the max security wing of the state prison.
 
We can all rest easy now that the AOPA "sent a letter". :rolleyes: In all seriousness it's great to hear that 100 pilots showed up at the meeting to discuss this important issue. I agree with the others- follow the green stuff on this one!
 
jjflys said:
We can all rest easy now that the AOPA "sent a letter". :rolleyes: In all seriousness it's great to hear that 100 pilots showed up at the meeting to discuss this important issue. I agree with the others- follow the green stuff on this one!
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JJ! Welcome to the Daisy Hill Funny Farm!!! Nate's freezing in NE, haven't seen Doug around lately, but the rest of us are holding down the fort.
 
What I find comical was the last part of the article. More "COMMERCIAL" options available and millions in revenue. That tells me that all the fencing was put in my a manager that fantasized about competing with the big boys for commercial aviation and could care less about the GA impacts of it. He just wanted to create an airport of relevance for -- as everybody has stated -- the green stuff. Money written all over it.
 
And people were wondering why I prefer to avoid airports that have airline service.
 
I always thought a well organized GA flash mob into someplace anti-GA would be fun.
 
Question. And I'm not saying that it's right, but how is the Grand Junction situation any different than at other class D airports?

I'm required to have a badge here, where I work, even for the AOA. I have a SIDA badge though, but that's because potentially I have the ability to go into TSA cargo or Pax areas to refuel. (I'm in bush Alaska, what is out here that any terrorist wants? But because it's an airport with delta airspace we have to comply with the various airport requirements.) To get the badge, yeah they had to do whole hand finger prints, and I had to spend an hour and a half saying this is how you drive around an airport, etc. Stupid, yeah, but if I want to work at pretty much any airport of size you have to do it.

There's a fence around most airport's too. I agree it does very little for real security except keep deer inside and near the runway. A fence does tend to make people who have no idea what's going on slow down a little, or tends to keep 4 wheelers off the runway so I would say a fence has a safety value and less of a security value.

And I have flown into airports where we parked the King Air a 100 yds from the building. My boss wanted to walk to stretch a little. The van driver stated that was fine, but he had to stay within talking distance of us or we'd all get in trouble.

Is all of it really annoying, sure. Does it do much of anything other than put on a show? In some ways no, in other ways yes. But how is the Grand Junction situation any different than that of any other class D, C, or even B airport. I'm just trying to understand what the problem is.
 
bgdriveway said:
Question. And I'm not saying that it's right, but how is the Grand Junction situation any different than at other class D airports?

I'm required to have a badge here, where I work, even for the AOA. I have a SIDA badge though, but that's because potentially I have the ability to go into TSA cargo or Pax areas to refuel. (I'm in bush Alaska, what is out here that any terrorist wants? But because it's an airport with delta airspace we have to comply with the various airport requirements.) To get the badge, yeah they had to do whole hand finger prints, and I had to spend an hour and a half saying this is how you drive around an airport, etc. Stupid, yeah, but if I want to work at pretty much any airport of size you have to do it.

There's a fence around most airport's too. I agree it does very little for real security except keep deer inside and near the runway. A fence does tend to make people who have no idea what's going on slow down a little, or tends to keep 4 wheelers off the runway so I would say a fence has a safety value and less of a security value.

And I have flown into airports where we parked the King Air a 100 yds from the building. My boss wanted to walk to stretch a little. The van driver stated that was fine, but he had to stay within talking distance of us or we'd all get in trouble.

Is all of it really annoying, sure. Does it do much of anything other than put on a show? In some ways no, in other ways yes. But how is the Grand Junction situation any different than that of any other class D, C, or even B airport. I'm just trying to understand what the problem is.
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The class of airspace has nothing to do with security requirements.
 
No, there is another requirement I can't remember what it is off the top of my head, that calls for different levels of airports. The airspace tends to be an easy way, to distinguish between say a dirt strip in bush alaska, and Reagan National.
 
The fact that other airports have chosen to accept the insanity, also bears little on the issue.

Point out a law that requires this fence or the biometric readers or locking out non-aviation groups who met safely on the field for decades.

This is about legal bribes to contractors in need of work. It's not about meaningful security.

Big money lining someone's pocket for building the fences, doing the engineering, etc. Millions of dollars in a small place like Grand Junction means a lot of opportunity for corruption. And it's just small enough that the good ol' boy network can keep it under wraps.

The fence wouldn't be built without Federal money from Denver. Thus, my interest in the situation.

Eventually this will all wrap around back into our State politics somewhere. Someone's brother in law or cousin knows a contractor... Something. Just like DIA.

Meanwhile, the cows still bust the barbed wire on the other side of the airport. A "terrorist" would be pretty damned stupid to not know this.

Some of this is documented in the articles already linked, if you read between the lines. Some of us see through it and are already tired of funding the charade.

I'm amazed the commenter has given up in Alaska. Lots of terrorists attacking King Airs up there, I guess?
 
bgdriveway said:
[snip] I'm just trying to understand what the problem is.
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The problem is that most of the people responsible for airport security do not have a freakin clue about security.
 
There's all types of security
Physical Security
Personnel Security
Information Security


And then there's JOB security, which often requires ignoring all of the above.
 
bgdriveway said:
Question. And I'm not saying that it's right, but how is the Grand Junction situation any different than at other class D airports?

I'm required to have a badge here, where I work, even for the AOA. I have a SIDA badge though, but that's because potentially I have the ability to go into TSA cargo or Pax areas to refuel. (I'm in bush Alaska, what is out here that any terrorist wants? But because it's an airport with delta airspace we have to comply with the various airport requirements.) To get the badge, yeah they had to do whole hand finger prints, and I had to spend an hour and a half saying this is how you drive around an airport, etc. Stupid, yeah, but if I want to work at pretty much any airport of size you have to do it.

There's a fence around most airport's too. I agree it does very little for real security except keep deer inside and near the runway. A fence does tend to make people who have no idea what's going on slow down a little, or tends to keep 4 wheelers off the runway so I would say a fence has a safety value and less of a security value.

And I have flown into airports where we parked the King Air a 100 yds from the building. My boss wanted to walk to stretch a little. The van driver stated that was fine, but he had to stay within talking distance of us or we'd all get in trouble.

Is all of it really annoying, sure. Does it do much of anything other than put on a show? In some ways no, in other ways yes. But how is the Grand Junction situation any different than that of any other class D, C, or even B airport. I'm just trying to understand what the problem is.
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I believe the problem in GJ is that everything is inside the fence. All of the based businesses ended up inside, so customers can't get to them. Every other airport I've been to you can get to businesses on the outside of the fence.
 
In addition to all the businesses inside the fence with no external access - other than those businesses who've left and moved to Montrose...

1) I'm based at a Class D without this onerous security issue
2) I frequently visit other Class C and D airports without the silliness that goes on at GJT
3) the price tag on the badges is double what other comparable airports are charging
4) even the TSA has stated the security measures far exceed what TSA requires
5) the manner of procurement & contract award for "the fence" is questionable under Federal regs

Go read the details and watch the city council video from Dec 7. It's very enlightening.
 
When the TSA fence went up at the home drome, the avionics/repair shop were told that in order for the opening in the fence near their shop, (which by the way is INSIDE the fence and gate they already have to their parking lot, which they lock whenever the shops are closed!) to include a card controlled gate, they would have to shell out the cost of installing said gate. You can imagine their answer!

Instead of a controlled gate, a swing gate which is now padlocked shut and not allowed to be opened since its not card controlled, was installed and in order to get to both shops, you have to walk through the back door into the shop itself to get to the offices of both businesses...and they call that security?

Oh and....the county sheriff has a sub station in the old terminal building (a 1970's design with virtually no windows on the road facing sides) With the 10ft barbed wire fencing around the whole works, and the patrol cars parked in the parking lot, the majority of people who do not use the field think this is the county jail facility when they drive by. Great way to promote GA huh....
 
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Anyone notice there's absolutely NO mention of General Aviation at the new & improved GJT website. But there's a somewhat mediocre article about choosing a flight school. But no mention of any flight school at GJT.
 
Thanks for the replies. Through all the various responses, I think I begin to understand a little.

I understand that most people in the 'security' field don't know what they are doing. Granted, I'm no expert. And I do think TSA is mostly a waste, but it's not too much for the government to make sure that people (companies) know what is going on on their lot. Thus the escort required from the plane to the terminal. Is the escort a bit much, sure, but it's one way to ensure that a company truly knows what is happening on their property. Isn't the whole GA security effort that is being pushed at small uncontrolled fields the focus on people paying attention to what is going on?

The building a fence just to line someone's pockets, whose in your good ol boys network, the outrage there makes sense. As I mentioned earlier, I typically think of a fence as a safety measure rather than a security measure, unless there's more to the security than a fence. I have first hand experience knowing that even a chain link fence by itself does very little to slow someone down.

I believe the problem in GJ is that everything is inside the fence. All of the based businesses ended up inside, so customers can't get to them. Every other airport I've been to you can get to businesses on the outside of the fence.
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Most airports including the one I work at presently, and others such as PAMR, HGR, HEF, IAD, etc. The buisnesses are a part of the fence. They are responsible for who gets on and off airport property through their business, keeping gates closed, etc. To have the business completely inside the fence is different, and far more problematic. As for the Airport ID/access cards, I never paid for mine, and I don't think my employer did either. I would be ticked off too if I had to pay for an airport ID badge.

I'm amazed the commenter has given up in Alaska. Lots of terrorists attacking King Airs up there, I guess?
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I guess I didn't clarify earlier, but the King Air flights were on the East coast. There is still plenty of stupidity up here. Government and other wise. As I stated before, airports have to meet different standards depending on the type of use they get. Sometimes the standards are stupid, but they still have to be met. A lot of times, the way to change it is through Congress. Have fun with that....

As a side note, shortly before I moved here, the FBI made a terrorist arrest and have gotten a conviction since. All sorts of nutjobs are up here due to the remoteness.
 
I just flew into SeaTac in a 182. I was (as always ) armed. Landing GA at KSEA was easier than trying to pick up a friend from the commercial side. I know of local airports with open gates, and some with code lock access. Even if every airport was locked down, a terrorist only need to board a plane at a private airport or at an off field location, to have access inside any airport fence by air. TSA security circus only serves to placate bureaucrats Dave
 
Ddayle said:
I just flew into SeaTac in a 182. I was (as always ) armed. Landing GA at KSEA was easier than trying to pick up a friend from the commercial side. I know of local airports with open gates, and some with code lock access. Even if every airport was locked down, a terrorist only need to board a plane at a private airport or at an off field location, to have access inside any airport fence by air. TSA security circus only serves to placate bureaucrats Dave
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ssshhhhhh. don't tell anyone....:goofy:
 
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