Close call

jordane93 said:
I heard your plane on the radio today. I was in 365WD, the Cirrus that was told to keep my speed up for you. Glad everything worked out today. It was a madhouse at FRG.
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Thanks for getting out of the way.:p Yeah, I left at about 9:30am, they wouldn't let me leave the ramp for a while because TWY Bravo and run-up at RWY 1 was completely jammed up. And a jet was #1 on Bravo waiting for his release for like 45 minutes, blocking everybody who needed a run-up.
 
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This has been an interesting thread. Honestly, I don't know what I would have done. I would like to think I would have gone to JFK, but I wasn't there and I really don't know.

What I do know is that when the engine quit on my 182 at 500 feet after takeoff, I was able to make it to a runway with the most dangerous cargo possible - 3 other pilots.

In any case, what the OP did resulted in a successful outcome, so I won't criticize the decision-making.
 
orange said:
Thanks for getting out of the way.:p Yeah, I left at about 9:30am, they wouldn't let me leave the ramp for a while because TWY Bravo and run-up at RWY 1 was completely jammed up. And a jet was #1 on Bravo waiting for his release for like 45 minutes, blocking everybody who needed a run-up.
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Yea I came back IFR. I was glad I did! As soon as we switched over to tower to check in on the visual approach, I heard tower tell 2 planes to remain outside of the airspace.
 
@orange - thanks, this IS helpful, and I'm glad you're safe.

There's a whole lot of water in that river when you're low - I've asked myself several times where I'd put it down if I had to in there - without good answers.

On the engine, My uneducated guess is a stuck valve, please let us know when you find out. And, was the mix leaned for the extensive taxi time?
 
whereisrandall said:
There's a whole lot of water in that river when you're low - I've asked myself several times where I'd put it down if I had to in there - without good answers.
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I think the river itself is the only option along most of the route. A prompt rescue is very likely there, so ditching has a good chance of success even in cold weather (especially if you've brought flotation jackets along).
 
With that long wait on the ground, did you lean the mixture? Possibly fouled plugs? Ahhh... a little odd that wouldn't show up immediately, but thought I'd throw it out there...
 
orange said:
This will sound stupid, but I was more intimidated by the water between me and JFK. For some reason, when looking at the runway, all I could see was water leading up to it. I'm deathly afraid of water. I was very low, about 1000 at my highest point on the way back. If my engine quit as I was over the water or even before I'd be in real trouble, I don't think I can glide 2 miles from 800-900 feet.
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I see. That's why I chose my words carefully when I wrote:
dtuuri said:
I know of a guy who lost power and passed up a good runway for a better one. It killed him. Glad your fate was better, but you might want to reconsider some things, like flying low over water in a single engine plane.
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:)
Edit: Might want to think about circling in a climb for better glide range while over a beach you could land on too. As you climb, you could shade toward the runway while maintaining glide distance back to the beach. How high do you figure you'd need to climb?

dtuuri
 
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Good job getting back safely! It's going to be interesting now to hear what was wrong with the engine.
 
orange said:
No. I had a 30 minute waiting holding short for takeoff (stuck in one spot due to jet blocking the taxiway waitimg for his IFR release), so I checked and re-check the takeoff checklist 2 or 3 times. I'm sure it was locked.
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See below ...

FlySince9 said:
With that long wait on the ground, did you lean the mixture? Possibly fouled plugs? Ahhh... a little odd that wouldn't show up immediately, but thought I'd throw it out there...
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I'm a little over 625 hours and have had several incidents ... one was EXACTLY you're scenario. Was at an uncontrolled with a pilot blocking the only access to the runway (KAQO) for nearly 35 minutes. I ended up leaning back to taxi mix too late and fouled the plugs nasty while still on the ground. Got restarted, everything perfect and had to do it again a few minutes later airborne. A week later one mag completely failed after "running" fine upto that point. I think it was a contributing factor that the mag was going out ... looking back, I did have what I thought were fouled plugs more often the 6 months before the mag crapped out.
 
Right after starting the engine, I checked oil pressure, fuel pressure, and I leaned the mixture for taxi. So it ran on full rich for probably 10 seconds. I thought of that too, but seems unlikely to foul up leaned, and like others said, it would be evident right away, not 30 minutes after takeoff. And one mag crapping out shouldn't be a 500 RPM drop. It should still be at least 2300-2400 at full power. On the takeoff roll, I always check RPM and it was 2500 at full power.
 
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orange said:
Right after starting the engine, I checked oil pressure, fuel pressure, and I leaned the mixture for taxi. So it ran on full rich for probably 10 seconds. I thought of that too, but seems unlikely to foul up leaned, and like others said, it would be evident right away, not 30 minutes after takeoff. And one mag crapping out shouldn't be a 500 RPM drop. It should still be at least 2300-2400 at full power. On the takeoff roll, I always check RPM and it was 2500 at full power.
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Yea, like I said it would have been an odd scenario but thought I'd mention the possibility...
 
So I checked with the school and they found the problem. A cracked cylinder.

I'll admit I know no more than the minimum that I needed to know for the checkride. This led to the partial loss of power, but what else could have happened? Could it have been worse? A lot worse? Total engine failure?

Thanks
 
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orange said:
So I checked with the school and I know the problem. A cracked cylinder.

I'll admit I know no more than the minimum that I needed to know for the checkride. This led to the partial loss of power, but what else could have happened? Could it have been worse? A lot worse? Total engine failure?

Thanks
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You betcha. It just depends on what cracks where and where the metal goes. Sounds like pressure in that cylinder went to zero, so you were running three cylinders which definitely makes it rough and lowers the RPM. It could have been worse.
 
Sounds like the engine was running well enough to get to JFK, but I would have been thinking seriously about Bennett - probably not because I don't know the runway conditions there other than "closed". Serious engine problem, 200 fpm climb max = get on the ground NOW. Is there such a thing as a minor engine problem in a single?

Good job managing it. You are a wiser pilot now and thank you for sharing with us and making all of us a little wiser (I hope).
 
orange said:
So I checked with the school and they found the problem. A cracked cylinder.

I'll admit I know no more than the minimum that I needed to know for the checkride. This led to the partial loss of power, but what else could have happened? Could it have been worse? A lot worse? Total engine failure?
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My brother was IMC in a Bonanza when a cylinder head cracked all the way around the barrel. He managed to get it on the ground after shooting an approach. Very lucky the intake tube stayed intact. Had the rubber seal pulled loose, he'd have lost all manifold pressure and the engine. He was over densely wooded eastern Pennsylvania at the time, but made it into DuBois.

dtuuri
 
Are there any indications that would tell me that it's a cylinder issue? I heard a metal to metal clinking and kind of a soft grinding every few seconds. The gauges were all normal.
 
orange said:
Are there any indications that would tell me that it's a cylinder issue? I heard a metal to metal clinking and kind of a soft grinding every few seconds. The gauges were all normal.
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As opposed to what?

If the engine is running rough and you're short on power, one cylinder is not producing the same power as the others. If it's VERY rough, you've probably completely lost one or more.

I suppose you could lose a prop tip, but that's going to shake you on another level. The one guy I'm familiar with who had this happen and survived said he had trouble pulling the throttle because it was shaking so hard. He thinks a short glide into the mountains saved his life because the engine mounts wouldn't have survived a long glide with a windmilling prop!

Lots of things can kill a cylinder. You need air, fuel, compression, and ignition. Lose any of those and the cylinder will not fire.

I had a car "lose" a cylinder that ended up being a broken rod bolt on #1. Same symptoms, including the engine knock.

Yes, it could have been a lot worse. The crack could have allowed the engine to pump all the oil overboard, leading to seizure.
 
Lindberg said:
As much as some airline pilots are big ********s, they're still pilots. And I'd like to believe all of them would rather wait an extra 15 than hear about you and your daughter hitting a bridge.
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Absolutely! Plus, most of us are on the clock at that point... you want me to wait 20 minutes for the GA Emergency to land? "Sounds great. Tell him good luck, I'll just sit here and watch the captain count all the extra money he's making."
 
It doesn't matter if an airliner or any other type airplane (corporate, other GA etc) has to wait while you land. You're an emergency and have priority over everything, maybe even Air Force One! Never hesitate to declare an emergency and feel intimidated. As soon as you say those words ("I'm declaring an emergency") the controllers will give you all the assistance and priority you need.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Absolutely! Plus, most of us are on the clock at that point... you want me to wait 20 minutes for the GA Emergency to land? "Sounds great. Tell him good luck, I'll just sit here and watch the captain count all the extra money he's making."
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I wish that were true.

I recently spent nearly 30 minutes on the ground waiting for IFR release, as a Medevac using a Lifeguard callsign attempted an instrument approach, went missed, and then tried again. I was OK with it, but there were two bizjets and a Pilatus behind me that were most unhappy.

But it doesn't matter. Don't worry about someone else's feelings in an emergency.
 
MAKG1 said:
I wish that were true.

I recently spent nearly 30 minutes on the ground waiting for IFR release, as a Medevac using a Lifeguard callsign attempted an instrument approach, went missed, and then tried again. I was OK with it, but there were two bizjets and a Pilatus behind me that were most unhappy.

But it doesn't matter. Don't worry about someone else's feelings in an emergency.
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Not that it matters as everyone knows what both mean, but didn't "lifeguard" get canned in favor of just using "medevac".
 
Wow! That was an incredible story!!! It sounds like you did everything you could, and more importantly you got on the ground safe and sound.

orange said:
...I asked my daughter afterwards if she was nervous as she herad everything, but she said no because she looked at me and I'didn't look nervous, so she went back to reading her book. LOL
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I had one experience kind of like this with two of my kids in the plane. I took the kids out on a short flight on a Saturday morning. We left with winds very calm, but on returning there was a 19 knot cross wind. At the time I was at about 70 hours of total time and just a few months past getting my private. The strongest crosswind I had ever landed in was about 8 knots. I was very nervous. My heart was pounding. I made one attempt, and had to go around. On the second attempt, I was able to set it down safely. After we taxied and tied the plane down I asked my kids if they noticed anything different. They told me "no" just like your daughter. They had no clue at all anything was even close to wrong. I had talked to each of them about sterile cockpit rules before the flight, so they didn't even talk to me when I did the go-around. It was really neat to see my passengers (even if they are my kids and completely trust me), be calm because of my calm demeanor.
 
orange said:
So I checked with the school and they found the problem. A cracked cylinder.

I'll admit I know no more than the minimum that I needed to know for the checkride. This led to the partial loss of power, but what else could have happened? Could it have been worse? A lot worse? Total engine failure?

Thanks
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Just a crack usually won't cause complete failure. If the entire head separates, it can break off the intake and cause complete loss of power or worse.
 
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First of all, thank you for posting this. Gives me pause to think if I were in a similar situation. The outcome was good and I would not presume to Monday morning, right seat pilot your situation. Same situation, different day, different or same decision, different or same outcome. Who knows? This situation on this day, you landed safely and have a "There I was" story we can all learn from.
Second, I listened to the ATC Comm and you certainly sounded calm. Good job considering how fast your mind was working through your situation.
Last, but not least, God bless our Air Traffic Controllers.
 
I think I'm getting back on the horse this coming weekend. I haven't flown since this happened 10 days ago.

The plane is back in service, so they must've replaced (fixed?) the cylinder.

To add, no call from FAA yet.
 
orange said:
I think I'm getting back on the horse this coming weekend. I haven't flown since this happened 10 days ago.
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Try a different airplane. ;)

orange said:
The plane is back in service, so they must've replaced (fixed?) the cylinder.
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JB Weld? They advertise that it is "stronger than steel". :D

orange said:
To add, no call from FAA yet.
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Unless there was anything out of the ordinary, it seems like a routine emergency return to land and should spawn no calls.
 
timwinters said:
I just don't see how some of the original responses were in any way productive...rather just annoyingly obtuse.

But maybe that's just me.
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I agree with you. It is not the content of the responses, i.e., nearer landing sites are better, etc., it is the tone of some of the comments, which is so common on here.

It is a good thing that orange did, taking the time to discuss his near emergency so that others could learn from it, possibly. Much of what he got in return was not so much constructive criticism as careless, superior, verbal abuse. But maybe that's just me.
 
Nice job getting it back safely and thanks for sharing the experience.
 
Which cylinder was it? Is that cylinder normally the "hot" one in that model aircraft?
 
I too would like to congratulate you on your luck of not losing the whole engine and the ability to return home safely, good job.
Yes, haters gonna hate and one can easily get negative feedback for practically anything one posts here (afterall, this is a pilots' forum and many of us are pretty arrogant and self-righteous :) ) but take it with a grain of salt and analyze it to learn your own lessons and possibly improve your safety.

And I too am curious as to which cylinder bit the dust. Let us know once you find out, please.
 
Depending on how it cracked, an engine monitor would have been a help in figuring out that you had a dead cylinder.
 
wsuffa said:
Depending on how it cracked, an engine monitor would have been a help in figuring out that you had a dead cylinder.
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Curious, would the EGT register very low? And CHT probably too? (never had a cracked cylinder, willing to learn - not that I am inviting it!)
 
A couple of things:

1) Nice job on staying calm. It let you make educated decisions, "what will I do now?"
2) Thanks for posting. It's allowed the rest of us to think about "what would I have done?"
3) Good on you for reviewing your decisions and thinking about "what could I have done better?"

Fortunately, I've not had an emergency situation pop up yet. I've had a few "what the ???" moments though. I have witnessed a couple of legitimate emergencies, and been able to listen in. Both involved some seriously experienced pilots, and in both of those cases they exercised their PIC authority, with the emphasis on "in command". They both told tower what they were going to do, and did it. There was no case of "asking", it was "telling". We learn about that in training, but it really helps to witness it first hand.
 
James331 said:
In my case always got my Edos, might not be pretty though depending on chop.

But still the single engine paranoia is a little silly.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not going to get a cracked cylinder over water at 400AGL.
 
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