Clock required for IFR.

[poadeleted20]

I've never understood the rationale for requiring that the clock be installed.

I can't help with the rationale, only with the regulatory requirement, and it must certainly must be installed. This regulation has been tested before the NTSB and upheld. See Administrator v. Hammerstrand.

 

[poadeleted20]

During my IFR training (1986) my instructor who was a real FAR nut and a Citation corporate pilot (and later went to work for FAA) allowed me to use a simple digital up/down timer that was attached to the clipboard, there was no clock in the panel in that 172. My IFR examiner later did not mind either during my checkride. By the way if you read an old classic textbook on IFR flying (it was recommended to me at that time) by Peter Dogan on page 75 (2nd printing) he states you should attach your timer with a velcro to your yoke. He gives specific tips what this timer should and shouldn't be like. Anyway, this "built in clock" has for long been recognized as an obsolete requirement and few pay attention to it.

Your statement that most folks use some sort of portable timer is correct, but the FAA still pays attention to this regulation, and lack of an installed clo9ck means your aircraft is not legal for IFR flight -- including on a practical test. Of course, if the IR practical test is conducted under VFR, an installed clock is not required, but that's another story.

 

[poadeleted20]

How in hell did someone get violated for flying in VMC on a IFR flight plan without a clock? Accident/incident? Ramp check?

Accident.

 

[weirdjim]

now Ron, let's not get pedantic. Even if the 8-day clock is not running and stuck at 3:57, once your battery dies you just wind it up. The clock will start moving and you will instantly have accurate time.

Nope. Even if it is DEAD stopped it is 100% accurate twice a day.



Jim

 

[RotorDude]

Accident.

According to this, there was no accident or incident; it was just a coincidence. The pilot had lost both engines (apparently due to bad fuel gauges and fuel mismanagement), but then got one started, and made an apparently successful unscheduled landing. Unfortunately for him, there were some FAA personnel there, who after some investigation decided to charge him. As I noted above, his poor attitude might have contributed to his situation.

 

[ChrisK]

Here is the NTSB ruling on that case.
Reading through it reveals the clock issue was secondary, but cited as a violation by the FAA in addition to the primary issues. The respondent also apparently displayed a poor attitude during the litigation:

I can imagine such attitude won't win any friends nor influence people.

That was an entertaining read. Thanks!

 

[philiplane]

100% agreed.


Everything can be turned off, including your VORs, radios, etc.

This you made up, there is nothing in FAR that supports this interpretation. For example there is absolutely no separate 'clock' mounted in SR22/G1000 yet the aircraft is fully IFR certified and qualified.

Sorry, but the Cirrus Avidyne and Perspective models met the clock requirement specifically during certification starting with the G2 models in 2004. Part of this is attributed to the dual bus electrical system which guarantees a minimum level of electrical supply to the PFD, MFD, and #1 GNS430 in the case of the Avidyne models. The 2008 & up Perspective models are even more redundant.

The stand-alone GNS units do not meet that level of redundancy in the 1999-2003 G1 Cirrus models, so those models do have a separate clock. They started out with a single alternator system, morphed to a dual battery / single alternator, and later came standard with dual alternators and batteries by 2003.

 

[Palmpilot]

I can't help with the rationale, only with the regulatory requirement, and it must certainly must be installed. This regulation has been tested before the NTSB and upheld. See Administrator v. Hammerstrand.

I believe that point was already well established in the thread.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sorry, but the Cirrus Avidyne and Perspective models met the clock requirement specifically during certification starting with the G2 models in 2004. Part of this is attributed to the dual bus electrical system which guarantees a minimum level of electrical supply to the PFD, MFD, and #1 GNS430 in the case of the Avidyne models. The 2008 & up Perspective models are even more redundant.

The stand-alone GNS units do not meet that level of redundancy in the 1999-2003 G1 Cirrus models, so those models do have a separate clock. They started out with a single alternator system, morphed to a dual battery / single alternator, and later came standard with dual alternators and batteries by 2003.

I don't know of any FAA requirement for redundant power for the clock. If there were such, every clock in non-EFIS panel legacy aircraft would require an independent backup power supply, and none have such. Further, there is no requirement for redundant power in the Advisory Circular regarding digital clocks. I'm sure Cirrus had their reasons for putting the separate clock in their earlier models, and for eliminating it in their later models, but FAA regulations isn't it.

 

[timwinters]

I set the clock in the Arrow I flew yesterday, thinking I'd use it for a fuel timer. After an hour had gone by on my watch, the clock in the panel had only advanced maybe 40 minutes. Glad I wasn't doing holds...

If it's an 8 day wind-up then Jacobs Instument Repair in Wichita..."the clock doc." They overhauled mine and after 10 years it still only loses about 3 minutes/week.

Every other clock/watch/timer known to mankind is inferior to the 8 day wind-up. The 8 day gives you important information that no other timepiece does. And that is, if you hop into your airplane and it's not running, then it's been too ****ing long since you last flew!

 

[petrolero]

I may have a clock installed in the panel, but I very seldom use it. It doesn't alert me in any way so it sucks compared to a smartwatch with a vibe alert as far as I'm concerned. With the watch I can track many different times simultaneously. Time in AIC, fuel tank, hold legs, etc.

I switched to the watch during my IR training and won't go back. Just because you have to have a clock installed doesn't mean you're required to use it.

 

[philiplane]

I don't know of any FAA requirement for redundant power for the clock. If there were such, every clock in non-EFIS panel legacy aircraft would require an independent backup power supply, and none have such. Further, there is no requirement for redundant power in the Advisory Circular regarding digital clocks. I'm sure Cirrus had their reasons for putting the separate clock in their earlier models, and for eliminating it in their later models, but FAA regulations isn't it.

The clocks are wired to the battery hot bus, which is always powered regardless of master switch position. FAA did not require that, but manufacturers put the clock and usually the Hobbs meter also on the hot bus, to the exclusion of everything else.

 

[mikea]

Heck you can get a clock for under 100bucks on spruce, 200 will get you a digital one with local time, Zulu, count down, count up, Hobbs, backlit, etc.

Yeah. We just looked because my wind up 8 day clock is frozed.

The A&P says he would have to run a power wire with fuse to the battery. I figure $200 just for that.

Oh, and Waltham Clock wants $360 (Repair labor + "Estimation fee") for a rebuild and it takes 30 days. "Do you have refurbs?" "If we do it's $700-800"

 

[weirdjim]

The A&P says he would have to run a power wire with fuse to the battery. I figure $200 just for that.

Are you trying to tell me that mounting a 1 amp breaker (PLEASE don't use fuses) on a small aruminum bracket next to the battery box and running a single #24 (or larger) wire from the battery box to the back of the panel is beyond your capability? And in an hour or less of your time?

Sheesh.


Jim

 

[Zeldman]

I set the clock in the Arrow I flew yesterday, thinking I'd use it for a fuel timer. After an hour had gone by on my watch, the clock in the panel had only advanced maybe 40 minutes. Glad I wasn't doing holds...

I had a watch that ran fast like that once.....

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you trying to tell me that mounting a 1 amp breaker (PLEASE don't use fuses) on a small aruminum bracket next to the battery box and running a single #24 (or larger) wire from the battery box to the back of the panel is beyond your capability? And in an hour or less of your time?

I think what he is saying is that he does not hold a Mechanic Certificate with Airframe rating and his mechanic isn't willing to supervise and sign for his performance of that task.

 

[timwinters]

Yeah. We just looked because my wind up 8 day clock is frozed.

The A&P says he would have to run a power wire with fuse to the battery. I figure $200 just for that.

Oh, and Waltham Clock wants $360 (Repair labor + "Estimation fee") for a rebuild and it takes 30 days. "Do you have refurbs?" "If we do it's $700-800"

See post #50. The total bill, including shipping, was $180 for an OH...but that was 10 years ago.

I probably could've bought and installed a digital for about the same money...but I like the original clock and the looks.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think what he is saying is that he does not hold a Mechanic Certificate with Airframe rating and his mechanic isn't willing to supervise and sign for his performance of that task.

Actually, if his A&P is willing to supervise and sign, I'm willing to perform the task! Good chance to learn something!

 

[mikea]

Are you trying to tell me that mounting a 1 amp breaker (PLEASE don't use fuses) on a small aruminum bracket next to the battery box and running a single #24 (or larger) wire from the battery box to the back of the panel is beyond your capability? And in an hour or less of your time?

Sheesh.

I'm telling you that I'm not a certified A&P mechanic authorized to make modifications and file a 337 and my plane is not a homebuilt. Sheeesh.

 

[steingar]

A wonderful bit of irony was accomplished when the Free Bird was equipped with a one-week clock and no other IFR gear of any kind.

 

[JHW]

I'm telling you that I'm not a certified A&P mechanic authorized to make modifications and file a 337 and my plane is not a homebuilt. Sheeesh.

adding a clock is not a major modification. Find an A&P willing to drink a few free beers from your hangar fridge and BS with you while you put it in.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm telling you that I'm not a certified A&P mechanic authorized to make modifications and file a 337 and my plane is not a homebuilt. Sheeesh.

As noted above, I don't think this rises to a "major alteration" so you don't need either an IA or a 337 with STC/field approval for this one. That said, whether your local friendly A&P is sufficiently confident in your skills to be willing to let you do this and then sign off the results is a question the answer to which I do not have.

 

[denverpilot]

The clocks are wired to the battery hot bus, which is always powered regardless of master switch position. FAA did not require that, but manufacturers put the clock and usually the Hobbs meter also on the hot bus, to the exclusion of everything else.

And the starter solenoid.

 

[mikea]

As noted above, I don't think this rises to a "major alteration" so you don't need either an IA or a 337 with STC/field approval for this one. That said, whether your local friendly A&P is sufficiently confident in your skills to be willing to let you do this and then sign off the results is a question the answer to which I do not have.

I picked up a used SUPERCLOCK!
http://buy-ei.com/portfolio/asc-5a/

The Transponder/Encoder connection requires making a Y cable, so that's a job for an avonics guy.

I may rig up power to it myself if the A&P is too busy.

The OAT option will cost an extra $120 or so for the probe and cable.

ATTENTION Engineer LANCE!

I have an OAT probe on my JPI EDM. Do you think I can splice in the Superclock with diodes or resistors and still get accurate OAT reading on both?

If not I'll pass on having another OAT display.

Oh, I'll have an 8 day clock that I may fix or get fixed. I might get more for that than I paid for the Superclock.