Click Bait airplanes for sale

Unit74

Unit74

Final Approach
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Unit74
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1362291/1976-piper-lance

I inquired on this plane from Jacks only to hear, naw man, thats been sold. But we'd be happy to provide you brokerage services to find one.

Uh.... No. I don't want you help nor am I willing to pay for it. Thats why I am calling and not you on a plane numb nuts.

I have come across this a bunch of times. I have come to the conclusion that less than upstanding brokers leave planes up to chum people in to brokering for them. Real classy....Not!
 
Unit74 said:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1362291/1976-piper-lance

I inquired on this plane from Jacks only to hear, naw man, thats been sold. But we'd be happy to provide you brokerage services to find one.

Uh.... No. I don't want you help nor am I willing to pay for it. Thats why I am calling and not you on a plane numb nuts.

I have come across this a bunch of times. I have come to the conclusion that less than upstanding brokers leave planes up to chum people in to brokering for them. Real classy....Not!
Click to expand...

I hate that crap too. I get that they're trying to run a business and make money but do it honestly.
 
How many times has this happened to you guys? I'm planning on advertising brokers' planes for them. I don't want to work with sleezy people like that.
 
Wow I thought it was just me that experienced this

Last year I inquired about a plane, and the guy on the phone told me that the plane had sold, but they offer a brokerage service and would be happy to work with me.. Yet the plane stayed on controller for 6 months afterwards.

I've called about different planes in the past and I get the same response - sold but they offer brokerage service, and the plane stays on controller for a while.

I was thinking - Why not remove the plane from the internet as being for sale? Now I understand.
 
It makes it real tough for guys to buy planes.... real tough. I have money to spend fellas, don't waste my time. You wont get any of it.
 
is there any broker certification or anything?
 
When used cars salesmen upgrade, they become aircraft brokers......
 
Unit74 said:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1362291/1976-piper-lance

I inquired on this plane from Jacks only to hear, naw man, thats been sold. But we'd be happy to provide you brokerage services to find one.

Uh.... No. I don't want you help nor am I willing to pay for it. Thats why I am calling and not you on a plane numb nuts.

I have come across this a bunch of times. I have come to the conclusion that less than upstanding brokers leave planes up to chum people in to brokering for them. Real classy....Not!
Click to expand...

Jeez, last registration action on this plane was 2 years ago?! "Just sold" ... Riiight.

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N6907J
 
I've encountered this too...I've never understood the whole broker thing anyway...what are you paying for? I know that (like the song says) "anything they can do, I can do better."
 
You should tell them your interested and tell them what your looking for; when they call back to tell you they found something, "I already bought a plane somewhere else."
 
tawood said:
I've encountered this too...I've never understood the whole broker thing anyway...what are you paying for? I know that (like the song says) "anything they can do, I can do better."
Click to expand...
Depends. If you are selling an airplane, a broker can be a huge help, if you don't want to have to deal with the phone call screening, showing the airplane, paperwork....etc. You are paying then to do all the dirty work for you. You can certainly do it yourself, but many don't want the hassle.

For a buyer, brokers aren't that useful, unless you are searching for a specific type/model and you are using a broker who is an expert on that type. Guys like Jerry Temple (Twin Cessnas) come to mind.
 
Hello. I'm Jack, with Jack's Aircraft. Sorry about presenting a misleading view on one of our listings. I'm really, really sorry for this. Aircraft N6907J was a little hard to sell. We had two buyers that ended up not Closing on the aircraft. On 3/10/2016 (8 days ago) we Closed on the aircraft (see below image of email from Aero Space Reports on the Closing). Without question we should have had the listing removed the day it Closed (why we wait until an aircraft Closes is due to many other issues - but on our company website, we are able to show which aircraft are under contract). I am training a new person to work our aircraft listings (it takes a fulltime person to keep up with our aircraft listings, as we have nearly 70 aircraft listed at any given time). I myself just de-listed the aircraft and there is really no one to blame but me for taking 8 days to get an aircraft delisted. ...but from my heart...I can tell you is was due to one reason: I have a new person working our aircraft listings and I overlooked making sure they had everything under control.

The aircraft was sold to a Celous Cox (public record info) and the FAA’s website should have the updated info posted in a few weeks.

Unit74...I am VERY sorry for not getting the aircraft delisted ASAP. Sometimes a person can only learn from their mistakes. You are welcome to contact me directly, and I will help you in finding a new aircraft at no-cost-to-you.

Email from Aero Space Reports:
N6907J.jpg
 
@Jack Hildenbrand : Hi Jack! You guys helped me sell N8045W, which I see just got marked as Sale Pending, but was sold Tuesday this week.

Jack's aircraft was able to sell my plane pretty quick guys, but I will say there are some "delays" as Jack already said. For my plane, even though my broker came and took a ton of pictures and a video, those never really made it up on the site. Didn't matter at the end of the day as the plane still sold within a couple months of being listed so, no harm no foul.

When I went to buy my airplane a year ago, I ran into ALL kinds of what you describe @Unit74. I'll bet that some people don't even know their plane is still listed on sites (especially the free ones). I looked at a PA-28-140 a year ago, called the guy up and he said, yeah it's been sold for 3 months..really??? Then why is it still listed??!

Frustrating, but I will definitely vouch for Jack's aircraft as being able to help sell the plane quickly.

I don't see the big deal with using a broker to find a good plane. It took me months and months of searching to find N8045W and in the end I got lucky that it was a good plane and that the owner was willing to work with me on it. Would I pay for someone to do that research for me? Heck yeah..long as they do it properly, it's worth it not to waste my time and energy calling and getting (sold 3 months ago) or some other nonsense.
 
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One thing that a good type specific broker can do is flush out the airplanes that aren't publicly listed for sale. But like anything, you need to research the broker first. I would avoid the click bait ones that this thread is about.
 
Thanks Ryan. I'm taking a few lumps this morning (from this thread)...but it all looks to be deserved and constructive. The new person working our listings is coming up-to-speed quickly....but there are a few issues I need to get with him on, before he is fully able to work aircraft listings with no delays and without errors. We track all listing issues (new airplane listings, sold aircraft, aircraft with a listing update needed) - in the last year we had over 1300 listing issues. It really is a fulltime job (we sold 10 aircraft in February...which really is a lot of aircraft being sold for February). During the busy months we can list (and sell) over 20 aircraft a month.

For the folks reading this thread...I'd really like to say I'm sorry. We're had a few issues recently with updating aircraft listings (I had to let the last person working our aircraft listings go - and I've hired a new person). I started in aircraft sales for the very reason this thread is active (dishonest people). One of our root issues, is that we have grown so fast in the last two years. I try to be honest, truthful and open. This thread is very helpful to me - as I WILL get the delays in updating our listings fixed.
 
@Jack Hildenbrand - Welcome to PoA!

Thank you for coming on here and for explaining - it says a lot (good) about your ethics and credibility.

Stick around and tell us some plane broker questions, - I bet you have a few of those.
 
Thanks Jack. I really do get frustrated with how many times I have called on planes and found this out. Dare I say 40-50% of what I've called on is long gone.

I'm a preapproved buyer and stone cold serious about buying a nice Lance or 6/300. It's gonna depend on the equipment list and TBOs for which one I get. Speed isn't as important as load.

I sold my Archer and I may take you up on that. FWIW, my plane never hit the open market so I know planes are for sale out there. I just wish sellers /brokers were dump the ads when the planes close instead of leaving them up.

Bartelt is really good about that and Airplanes USA as well. It's up, it's sold, it's down. Not too much to ask really.
 
If I could do it again, I would have saved the money and bought my airplane without a broker... who really didn't do much of anything for me anyways. Learned quite a bit about buying an aircraft, some of it the hard way.

I never really had a problem with salesmen, but the one thing that bothered me a little was sending an email with a simple question about missing information(what's the price, airframe TT, etc... something left out of the listing) and now my phone is blowing up. Not sure why I can't just get a simple answer to the question via the email I just sent, if I'm in the field working I am simply unable to speak on the phone.
 
@Jack Hildenbrand, I will echo Spike's welcome to PoA and also encourage you to participate in the Forums as you have time. Threads about purchasing and selling do happen every once and a while, and we will always welcome your input from a broker's perspective.
 
Glad to see Jack here explaining.

I *worked for* a totally sleazy broker long ago way before the web, and his tactics were beyond unethical. They're out there. For sure.

He'd troll the bulletin boards at the local colleges for part timers to cold call every airplane owner in the registry he could get his hands on a phone number for and ask if they were selling. Then when he would find someone desperate to sell, he would show up with a cashier's check for less than the agreed-upon amount and tell them it was the best he could do. (He had more smaller denomination cashier's checks in his shirt pocket to make up the difference if they got mad, and he never made a full price offer anyway.)

Total scumbag. I never got paid for the call time by the hour or the commissions promised on sales either. I learned pretty quick and was only there a few days before I figured out his game and bailed.
 
Welcome Jack! Glad to see not everyone is Barron in this business.

I'm in the process of starting my own little brokerage for the same reasons listed here and it's nice to know that you're willing to speak up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I won't mention the broker, because there are civil and criminal proceeding pending.
Last year I was looking at listings and the broker in question had an absolutely cherry Cardinal RG for sale.
The plane in the picture was EXACTLY as described. As perfect as it could be.
Unfortunately, the broker had posted pictures and description of a plane owned by a close friend of mine.
The plane was NOT for sale, the plane was in a hanger 7 states east of where the broker was doing business.
The plane had just come back from getting a complete, ground up rebuild.
Apparently while the plane was being worked on, the broker took pictures of the plane, including the interior, then talked to the mechanic and made a list of all of the upgrades that had been added and posted it for sale on his website.
It's not smart to mess around with a plane that belongs to Federal Judge.
It's even dumber to forget to edit out the "N" number.
 
My plane is not for sale, but if you guys want to give me monies to "find you" a new one I'll do my hardest.....as I'm burning that money as 100LL to fly my plane.....

But in all seriousness I've had almost the inverse I guess of this? My plane is not for sale nor has it ever been listed for sale but I am contacted by aircraft brokers on a weekly basis asking if it's for sale or offering their services to broker it for me. It's annoying and unpleasant

Then again my airplane could be sale though....for enough money to buy a TBM-900, but I don't think 182's bring in that type of cash
 
Shepherd said:
I won't mention the broker, because there are civil and criminal proceeding pending.
Last year I was looking at listings and the broker in question had an absolutely cherry Cardinal RG for sale.
The plane in the picture was EXACTLY as described. As perfect as it could be.
Unfortunately, the broker had posted pictures and description of a plane owned by a close friend of mine.
The plane was NOT for sale, the plane was in a hanger 7 states east of where the broker was doing business.
The plane had just come back from getting a complete, ground up rebuild.
Apparently while the plane was being worked on, the broker took pictures of the plane, including the interior, then talked to the mechanic and made a list of all of the upgrades that had been added and posted it for sale on his website.
It's not smart to mess around with a plane that belongs to Federal Judge.
It's even dumber to forget to edit out the "N" number.
Click to expand...

Ha. Interesting. Too bad you can't say what he's being charged with. That'd be my question.

Someone can take pictures of my airplane and say it's for sale, too. The question is, what law is broken doing so.
 
Fraud comes to mind. So does conspiracy to commit wire fraud and mail fraud if a check was actually sent.
 
Unit74 said:
Fraud comes to mind. So does conspiracy to commit wire fraud and mail fraud if a check was actually sent.
Click to expand...

If no money changed hands, most of those don't amount to much of a penalty in the real world. It sounds nice to have a former judge making his life "hell", but I doubt he spends any more than a day in court and a fine, if that.

The former judge won't have any real damages from it, so it's mostly a case where a former judge can call up buddies in LE and gets a little action -- most of us, LE would file a nice report and say, "Have a nice day..." in a case like that.

Dude will be back at the shop taking more pictures as soon as the next plane shows up.
 
There are honest brokers and there are scammers. Which ones do you hear about more often? Yup, you guessed it, the scum of the Earth. The liars, the cheats, the a-holes.
Unless the feds are willing to prosecute for fraud (which is hard to prove), just move on and don't waste your time.

A friend of mine once forwarded me a fleaBay listing that advertised a nice boat for sale. My boat. The boat in my garage, locked up and safe. My own property.
Don't ask how many days it took me to get the fleaBay retards to remove the listing as fraudulent. They were playing deaf ear. When I finally mentioned a lawyer, poof, the listing magically disappeared. :) Scum of the Earth, I tell ya. Nothing to see here, keep moving.
 
I'm not a broker, but I have helped people buy airplanes.

An experienced individual who knows the options is helpful for many who are wading through a sea of Controller ads. In more an one situation, I've guided people towards a different type than they were considering, or a specific year.

There are reasons why you'd want to have help both with buying and selling.
 
I have heard, but can't confirm, that the former owner of our airplane was a "bit off"... And I do know that my co-owners bought it through a broker.

I've heard, rumor only, that his mechanic told him to sell the airplane through a broker and to quit scaring off potential buyers.

So there is that... If you're a PITA, let someone else sell your airplane. Haha.
 
Unit74 said:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1362291/1976-piper-lance

I inquired on this plane from Jacks only to hear, naw man, thats been sold. But we'd be happy to provide you brokerage services to find one.

Uh.... No. I don't want you help nor am I willing to pay for it. Thats why I am calling and not you on a plane numb nuts.

I have come across this a bunch of times. I have come to the conclusion that less than upstanding brokers leave planes up to chum people in to brokering for them. Real classy....Not!
Click to expand...


Jeff (I'm guessing)

My name is David Fill. I'm one of Jack's brokers and responded to your email inquiry on 3/17 at 1150 (I'm assuming it was you since I only reviewed one email inquiry on this Lance yesterday. I didn't receive any sort of response back from you but it's my policy that when answering any email or phone inquiry when an airplane simply won't work for the customer's mission (or has been sold) to offer our Buyers Agent Services. Some people take us up on it and some don't but it's simply good customer service in my opinion to offer.

Certainly didn't mean to offend and I (and Jack) certainly don't offer any sort of "click bait". When an aircraft has an accepted offer we mark it as "Sale Pending" and as soon as possible after its sold mark it as such and pull this listings of Controller, Trade A Plane , etc. sometimes that takes awhile to accomplish depending on which site it is.


Here is a cut and paste of my response:
"Jeff,

Thank you for your email but unfortunately this Lance has been sold.

Please take a look at our website we have 70 other airplanes for sale right now. We also offer our Buyer's Agent Service where we work on your behalf to find the ideal airplane that fits your preferences, budget, and mission.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or if I can be of assistance.

David

---
David J. Fill II
Senior Account Executive / Pilot
Jack's Aircraft
Direct: 571-439-6410
Office: 1-800-516-1758
Fax: 1-540-693-2288
Email: davidf@jacksaircraft.com
Web: www.jacksaircraft.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. "

We certainly appreciate the original inquiry and if we can of of assistance in the future please don't hesitate to contact me or anyone else on the team. The goal is to help you find the right airplane and keep GA growing as much as possible which benefits all of us as an aviation community.

David
 
Unit74 said:
When used cars salesmen upgrade, they become aircraft brokers......
Click to expand...

Yep. I've found sleezy tactics like this are used in car sales and even real estate transactions at times. I've never bought a plane, but I imagine the same rules would apply.

But, I think there are probably a number of good aircraft brokers out there. The letter information provided in the post before mine doesn't suggest that this crew of brokers was trying to be shady, for whatever that's worth.
 
I called on another and the older gentleman that answered said, oh? That ad is still up? That was sold back in December.

I just don't get it......
 
^^^ if that's the same David Fill, a number of us here have met him in person at OSH. If it's that David I'm pretty sure he's not pulling anyone's leg here. Just sayin. Small world.
 
Jack

Can you answer this? I see some planes where they are waaaaay over vRef and one I looked I I tallied up the equipment list and the guy was asking basically full retail on all the stuff.

Then I see a plane with a similar equipment list and I'm like holly crap, it's either a turd bucket, open ADs or something MUST be wrong with it. There is such a huge swing I find it very difficult gauge the market.

Is vRef considered the standard as far as value goes or is it something that just the banks use? I'd offer one one plane I found, but vRef is about $20k less than his price and based on causal conversation, I'm sure he will tell me to go pound sand.
 
The market is strongly driven by buyers. So right now the vRef and other Bluebook sites are not fully matching the purchase price of an aircraft. We use an in-house CMA (Comparative Market Analysis) to find real listing price. Our CMA is about as close to a certified appraisal as one can get....without the cost of a certified appraisal. The main difference in our CMA and a certified appraisal is that the status of the aircraft is not verified until a pre-purchase inspection. Example: A certified appraisal will verify all logbooks are present, with no missing pages. A CMA will take the sellers "word" on the status of the logbooks....knowing a pre-purchase inspection will expose inaccurate information. A vRef also has a hard time accurately setting values on STCs and items like that. Example: Both aircraft have engine heaters. But one also has cylinder heat and a higher wattage. Granted....my example would change the price of an aircraft by only a few hundred dollars. ....but what about an engine overhaul: one completed by a local A&P/IA and one completed by Lycoming. Examples like this is where vRef and Bluebooks sites are really unable to set a true value of an aircraft. Hope that helped a little @Unit74!
 
I have owned 9 aircraft in 30 years only 2 turned out to be pos those i found myself. so i truly believe that hiring a broker to find you a aircraft is money well spent. i have used only 2 brokers in my life Howard van bortal [ 4]and pat robertson at indy air [5] in anderson in.i wanted a very specific champ just recently and it took a few years for him to find it but well worth the cost and wait .
 
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