Cleared thru Class Bravo!

I've had Bravos put airliners 1000' above me, crossing. It's fun to gawk at. They really appreciate those magic words, "Traffic in sight".

Latest was DEN, crossed a Southwest 737 over the top West to East as I was North to South.

"Skylane Seven Niner Mike, Traffic 2 moving to 3 o'clock, a Boeing 737 descending out of 11,000, he will be stopping his descent above you."

The interesting part was you could tell the SWA crew wasn't expecting to stop the descent. They overshot a little and then bopped right back up. I was at 8500'.

Nice view of the 73 from my vantage point. I doubt he ever saw me. Angle was all wrong to see out of his windows very well.

Other friendly Bravos that have provided in-flight entertainment by way of nearby large jets include LAS, PHX, and SoCal.

At KVNY when I was flying there in the 90s, the published pattern altitude for the east side parallel runway was 800' not 1000' AGL. Reason given to me by a local CFI was that the ILS for Burbank goes over the top. The pattern had to be lower on that side. You didn't want to be high on downwind. ;)

Looking in Foreflight it looks like that isn't published that way anymore, but the LDA-C Approach into KVNY shows just how well the KBUR ILS localizer center-punches KVNY, since that's the navaid for the KVNY approach. ;)

It was fun doing laps to 16L and watching the jets pass overhead headed into KBUR.
 
This is how close I got to one. The ATC guy told me to climb 500 feet, when I was in the bravo, from 3500 to 4000. Then he told the heavy to report me in sight and remain at 3500 or below. Then he told ME he was restricting a heavy below me (I think to make it clear how important it was I hold my altitude, since I'd said something dumb before this incident).

Here is that jet (there was another one, above me, but not as close):


6626568827_49ae011391_z.jpg
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is how close I got to one. The ATC guy told me to climb 500 feet, when I was in the bravo, from 3500 to 4000. Then he told the heavy to report me in sight and remain at 3500 or below. Then he told ME he was restricting a heavy below me (I think to make it clear how important it was I hold my altitude, since I'd said something dumb before this incident).

Here is that jet (there was another one, above me, but not as close):


6626568827_49ae011391_z.jpg
Click to expand...
Whoa! You could almost have asked a stewardess (yes, I said stewardess, not Flight Attendant) for a coke!
 
Tracey said:
Whoa! You could almost have asked a stewardess (yes, I said stewardess, not Flight Attendant) for a coke!
Click to expand...

I know! I was saying to the boyfriend as the plane approached (since he'd snapped photos of the Golden Gate Bridge, etc on the way there):

"Why are you NOT taking a picture of this? As a pilot this is the coolest thing that has happened to me TO DATE!! Take a photo!"

By the time he got out the camera that's what we got. It looked cooler when it seemed to be coming right for us. Oh well.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
It looked cooler when it seemed to be coming right for us. Oh well.
Click to expand...
I dunno, that's a pretty cool shot. I got one of a jet below me too, but I didn't bother to post it because it was fuzzy and not very good quality. The pic you posted is excellent!
 
I am assuming it is a Delta jet.... I don't fly commercial much but I don't think I have ever seen a number displayed on top of a wing like that one has.:dunno:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I just googled the numbers, apparently that's Asiana Airlines. Never heard of them.
Click to expand...
Oh, then you probably wouldn't have gotten a coke from them then. You probably don't speak the language. :lol:
 
What a difference two days makes. Two days ago Tracey posted this thread and at that time going through Bravo for me seemed like a wild dream. THEN this morning, they bored almost right through the middle of DFW Class B. Maybe I might make something besides a boondocker before it's all over with.
 
Y'all want to hear something crazy? The guys I fly with detest VFR. Many times is makes a ton of sense to cancel IFR and just shoot straight to the field VFR. But here's the thing and I tell them all this.

Once you (speaking to my VFR nervous FO) was a VFR only pilot, right? Back then IFR seemed scary. You had to follow rules and procedure and if you screwed up you get into trouble so VFR was the safe out...right?

But then you got your IFR ticket and started to fly commercially. After years of just doing as your told now VFR seems scary. It's scary because you don't do it often and you're affraid ATC won't be there to save you. I've called Lockheed and there are no TFRs. We have a sectional on the iPad with a GPS input. What's the problem?

Still, guys are way out of there comfort zone. I don't cancel IFR unless they agree and many times we fly the extra 100 miles so as to stay on the flight plan route even though cancelling would have gotten us direct.

My point, I guess, is that we all have a comfort zone. If you can recognise that it's just that and move on things open up. VFR guys learning IFR need not be affraid and (I see this all the time believe it or not) IFR guys going VFR need not be affraid either.

I'd guess some here are shocked by this but it's the truth. I'd guess around 85% of the 121 pilots out there would be scared to death to go on a 100 mile cross country VFR. I kid not.
 
Captain said:
I'd guess around 85% of the 121 pilots out there would be scared to death to go on a 100 mile cross country VFR. I kid not.
Click to expand...
This is interesting to me. I guess it goes to show you that once you get used to a certain "way" of doing things (flying IFR in this example), then doing anything else can be considered out of one's comfort zone and thus, scary or intimidating.

Thanks for this perspective, interesting to see it "from the other side."
 
Tracey said:
This is interesting to me. I guess it goes to show you that once you get used to a certain "way" of doing things (flying IFR in this example), then doing anything else can be considered out of one's comfort zone and thus, scary or intimidating.

Thanks for this perspective, interesting to see it "from the other side."
Click to expand...

Exactly! This is why it is so important to do different thing when you are a young pilot. Land at different airports, divert just for the fun of it, ect. Don't get stuck n the mud.
 
Geico266 said:
Exactly! This is why it is so important to do different thing when you are a young pilot. Land at different airports, divert just for the fun of it, ect. Don't get stuck n the mud.
Click to expand...
Ay yi, Cap'n. Good advice, I'll remember that. :yesnod:
 
Tracey said:
This is interesting to me. I guess it goes to show you that once you get used to a certain "way" of doing things (flying IFR in this example), then doing anything else can be considered out of one's comfort zone and thus, scary or intimidating.

Thanks for this perspective, interesting to see it "from the other side."
Click to expand...

It's good to get out and try/do different things.

I'll admit to flying much less VFR than I did before 9/2001. Especially since I'm now based inside the DC SFRA & since I fly a lot of cross-country. Yes, I'll fly VFR when it's a lot more expeditious to do so, but since I've got to file what amounts to an IFR flight plan to get in/out of HEF, it's just as easy to go IFR. Once outside, if the weather is good & the IFR routing crappy, then I'll consider canceling & going VFR the rest of the way. If I'm headed away from the East Coast, however, I find ATC pretty flexible with direct routing requests (not so up the Northeast corridor).

Given the coming spate of TFRs due to election season, being IFR means another set of eyes helping to keep you out of pop-up/extended flight restrictions.
 
I flew with a jet captain / pilot and I remember (I was PIC) the comments regarding how different it was. We flew about 100nm VFR XC total round trip, with flight following - but barely talked to ATC once the whole flight (nobody out there that day as our traffic). The pilot made a comment about something below, so I went down, circled, and the pilot took photos. It was obvious this type of flying was so different for them - but I thought that day - relaxing and fun (not scary).
 
Very cool stuff!

I remember my first time going solo through a bravo. I had read and re-read the correct radio procedures to request it and was still stressed. Heading from the SE end of the Orlando Bravo to the NW end. The clouds were a little low and I was stuck at 2500'. They vectored me around and finally told me to go to 2000' and fly directly over the tower at KORL East to West. I was so excited and could see jets taking off and landing underneath on the North/South runways and started filming with my phone, but was so anxious not to screw up that I just held my phone against the window and focused on holding the exact altitude and heading they'd given me. Reseting my DG off the compass every 30 seconds or so to be sure, lol. A bit of overkill but I wanted to prove I wouldn't be a burden in the big boys play ground.

On the way back through they put me over Disney at 2000. Right over the castle and epcott center and the hotels. Very neat stuff and what I miss most now that I'm stuck in the traffic pattern and practice areas for the moment. Although the memory gives me a little boost of motivation :)
 
FormanFlyer said:
Very cool stuff!

I remember my first time going solo through a bravo. I had read and re-read the correct radio procedures to request it and was still stressed. Heading from the SE end of the Orlando Bravo to the NW end. The clouds were a little low and I was stuck at 2500'. They vectored me around and finally told me to go to 2000' and fly directly over the tower at KORL East to West. I was so excited and could see jets taking off and landing underneath on the North/South runways and started filming with my phone, but was so anxious not to screw up that I just held my phone against the window and focused on holding the exact altitude and heading they'd given me. Reseting my DG off the compass every 30 seconds or so to be sure, lol. A bit of overkill but I wanted to prove I wouldn't be a burden in the big boys play ground.

On the way back through they put me over Disney at 2000. Right over the castle and epcott center and the hotels. Very neat stuff and what I miss most now that I'm stuck in the traffic pattern and practice areas for the moment. Although the memory gives me a little boost of motivation :)
Click to expand...

Kool... you got the "mouse house" tour at 1900 AGL... That must have been back before the TFR that surrounds the Disney complex now... Back when I flew that area they "suggested " we stay away because of the lazer light show from EPCOT might damage our eyes.... That was in the late 1980's .:yesnod:
 
N801BH said:
Kool... you got the "mouse house" tour at 1900 AGL... That must have been back before the TFR that surrounds the Disney complex now... Back when I flew that area they "suggested " we stay away because of the lazer light show from EPCOT might damage our eyes.... That was in the late 1980's .:yesnod:
Click to expand...

With the current Disney World TFR, if you're getting FF it's not an issue. I did a VFR flight from KORL to KTPA last year, with flight following. My flight path took me near the TFR, so I inquired with ATC to make sure I would be clear of it. I was informed that as long as the aircraft is in communication with ATC, transiting the TFR is permitted.

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_4985.html
THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO; THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES...
Click to expand...
 
I queried as well and was told they were the controlling agency, so they can do what they want with it down to the minimums of the agreed upon restrictions (I think down to 1,000' or 1500' agl even though the TFR goes up to 3,000' IIRC).

One of the approaches for Kissimmee goes right through it as well.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I flew with a jet captain / pilot and I remember (I was PIC) the comments regarding how different it was. We flew about 100nm VFR XC total round trip, with flight following - but barely talked to ATC once the whole flight (nobody out there that day as our traffic). The pilot made a comment about something below, so I went down, circled, and the pilot took photos. It was obvious this type of flying was so different for them - but I thought that day - relaxing and fun (not scary).
Click to expand...

My guess is he was relaxed because you were PIC. I'm certianly not saying ALL 121 pilots are affraid. Many own their own planes and fly VFR all the time. But MOST, in my experience, do not and are way out of their comfort zone VFR.


FormanFlyer said:
Very cool stuff!

I remember my first time going solo through a bravo. I had read and re-read the correct radio procedures to request it and was still stressed. Heading from the SE end of the Orlando Bravo to the NW end. The clouds were a little low and I was stuck at 2500'. They vectored me around and finally told me to go to 2000' and fly directly over the tower at KORL East to West. I was so excited and could see jets taking off and landing underneath on the North/South runways and started filming with my phone, but was so anxious not to screw up that I just held my phone against the window and focused on holding the exact altitude and heading they'd given me. Reseting my DG off the compass every 30 seconds or so to be sure, lol. A bit of overkill but I wanted to prove I wouldn't be a burden in the big boys play ground.

On the way back through they put me over Disney at 2000. Right over the castle and epcott center and the hotels. Very neat stuff and what I miss most now that I'm stuck in the traffic pattern and practice areas for the moment. Although the memory gives me a little boost of motivation :)
Click to expand...

I ask for the Disney tour when ever I depart ISM North bound. We fly past at 1,500 (I think...maybe 2,500) and ATC is fine as long as we simply transit the area. No loitering.
 
Captain said:
My guess is he was relaxed because you were PIC. I'm certianly not saying ALL 121 pilots are affraid. Many own their own planes and fly VFR all the time. But MOST, in my experience, do not and are way out of their comfort zone VFR.
Click to expand...
It's weird when you suddenly recognize yourself in the discussion!

I've had a fairly long aviation career and fully half of it was VFR in smaller piston airplanes. Going back to it is a bit nostalgic, vaguely familiar, and not scary at all. I'm not that much of a control freak so I have no problems being a passenger looking out the window at the view, and the view was beautiful that day. :)
 
Everskyward said:
It's weird when you suddenly recognize yourself in the discussion!

I've had a fairly long aviation career and fully half of it was VFR in smaller piston airplanes. Going back to it is a bit nostalgic, vaguely familiar, and not scary at all. I'm not that much of a control freak so I have no problems being a passenger looking out the window at the view, and the view was beautiful that day. :)
Click to expand...


Soooooo....I take it that it was you with Kimberly?

Okay. Do you see my point about many jet pilots not being comfortable fly VFR when they are PIC? Heck, I'm the PIC and I have FOs that don't like the idea of me cancelling IFR to go straight to the field.

I fly to HPN from Florida all the time. The Rudy2 is the arrival and takes you way up Long Island. I prefer, on a clear day, to simply fly direct DPK and cross it at 7,500, descend just outside JFKs class B to 2,500 and turn in. Pull up the chart and see how much time that saves. Some (read most) say flat out 'no' and others are obviously out of the comfort zone. I don't think anybody has not needed some reassurance that it can be done safely. I show them the airspace, what the plan is and assure them I've done it many times before. As I'm the Captain most go along. If they don't we stay on course IFR and we fly and extra 25 or 20 minutes and see another 100 miles of America.
 
Captain said:
Soooooo....I take it that it was you with Kimberly?

Okay. Do you see my point about many jet pilots not being comfortable fly VFR when they are PIC?
Click to expand...
Not so much so where I'm from. We cancel IFR all the time going into small, uncontrolled airports when the weather is nice. I don't know what being PIC has to do with it either. I may be flying with people who have different backgrounds than you are, though.
 
HPN isn't uncontrolled and it's under the JFK shelf. Still onboard cancelling?
 
FormanFlyer said:
I remember my first time going solo through a bravo.
Click to expand...
I wasn't solo-- that would be quite an accomplishment though. I was with my CFI.

And yeah, the "Mouse House" tour- I would love that, that must have been quite a sight to see. (Unless you ended up with the song "It's a small world" stuck in your head :yikes:).
 
Okay, nevermind.


Btw, that was uncalled for. We (at least me) was just having a conversation.
 
Having the uncontrolled field in sight and cancelling is a different thing than navigating around and ducking under bravo to get into a class D airport. If you've done that then great. I don't think many 121 pilots would. I was looking for some support and instead you call into question me.

And I had just paid you a Compliment!! Sheesh...
 
Captain said:
Having the uncontrolled field in sight and cancelling is a different thing than navigating around and ducking under bravo to get into a class D airport. If you've done that then great.
Click to expand...
Why do you think it's great?

Captain said:
I don't think many 121 pilots would. I was looking for some support and instead you call into question me.
Click to expand...
I've never been a 121 pilot but what I was questioning was this.

Captain said:
I fly to HPN from Florida all the time. The Rudy2 is the arrival and takes you way up Long Island. I prefer, on a clear day, to simply fly direct DPK and cross it at 7,500, descend just outside JFKs class B to 2,500 and turn in. Pull up the chart and see how much time that saves. Some (read most) say flat out 'no' and others are obviously out of the comfort zone. I don't think anybody has not needed some reassurance that it can be done safely. I show them the airspace, what the plan is and assure them I've done it many times before. As I'm the Captain most go along. If they don't we stay on course IFR and we fly and extra 25 or 20 minutes and see another 100 miles of America.
Click to expand...
So you're using your position to pressure the FOs into doing something with which they are not comfortable? Needlessly? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
 
Yeah, you're reading it wrong. I default to the comfort of the FO. If they don't want to then we don't. I do show them the sectional and show them the plan.

FOs, by and large, support the Captain. Obviously if the Captain wants to do somthing unsafe their job is to speak up. That's my point. Flying VFR in and of itself isn't unsafe, but MANY in this profession think it is and that brings us to this thread. Flying outside JFKs Bravo and ducking under to save 20 minutes flight time is in my comfort zone. It's not for many. If, after I explain the plan, they still don't want to we default to their comfort zone.

The uncomfort is the VFR. Not flying with me as you suggested.
 
Captain said:
Yeah, you're reading it wrong. I default to the comfort of the FO.
Click to expand...
That's not how your post comes across.

Captain said:
That's my point. Flying VFR in and of itself isn't unsafe, but MANY in this profession think it is and that brings us to this thread.
Click to expand...
You're equating ducking under a complex Class B in a fast turboprop to taking a pleasure flight in a small, slow, airplane. Both are "VFR". I can see how some people would not be entertained by doing one but would be fine with the other.
 
Quick question related to all of this. If I'm cleared into Class B, but directed "remain at or below 1,000ft" and I am over a congested area, am I granted an exemption to 91.119 (1,000ft above the highest point within 2,000ft) since I am following an ATC request? Or should I reply "unable" as that would put me in violation?

This happened today in the middle of the NYC Bravo, and looking back on it, I'm curious if an ASRS is needed.
 
Mike I said:
Quick question related to all of this. If I'm cleared into Class B, but directed "remain at or below 1,000ft" and I am over a congested area, am I granted an exemption to 91.119 (1,000ft above the highest point within 2,000ft) since I am following an ATC request? Or should I reply "unable" as that would put me in violation?

This happened today in the middle of the NYC Bravo, and looking back on it, I'm curious if an ASRS is needed.
Click to expand...

Were you transiting the area or arriving/departing to/from a nearby airport?

I looked at 91.119 and didn't see an "except as authorized by ATC" in it.

I wouldn't worry about it from a practical standpoint, but might be useful to file the ASRS just as an input to the system.
 
TMetzinger said:
Were you transiting the area or arriving/departing to/from a nearby airport?

I looked at 91.119 and didn't see an "except as authorized by ATC" in it.

I wouldn't worry about it from a practical standpoint, but might be useful to file the ASRS just as an input to the system.
Click to expand...

I was transiting the area. The route I was on (JFK Tracks Route) takes one right by JFK, following railroad tracks just a few miles north of Kennedy and it's Class B to the surface. While there are no tall buildings there (in Queens), it would still almost positively be considered a congested area.

The surface elevation there is likely 50' MSL or so, but that's still above 0'. So, I was squeezed, and tried to keep it 900'-950' or so as to not bust the 1000' restriction.

Not too concerned about it practically, but was more curious if I'm accepting a clearance I should decline.
 
Sorry for a reply to my own post...just found this though:

ATC Order 7110.65U(9) - 7-9-7
Class B Service Area - Terminal
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0709.html
7-9-7. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS

a. Altitude information contained in a clearance, instruction, or advisory to VFR aircraft must meet MVA, MSA, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.

b. Issue altitude assignments, if required, consistent with the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.119.

NOTE-
The MSAs are:
1. Over congested areas, an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle,
2. Over other than congested areas, an altitude at least 500 feet above the surface.
Click to expand...

So, could it be that the controller considers that area an "other than congested" area?
 
Captain said:
Y'all want to hear something crazy? The guys I fly with detest VFR. Many times is makes a ton of sense to cancel IFR and just shoot straight to the field VFR. But here's the thing and I tell them all this.

Once you (speaking to my VFR nervous FO) was a VFR only pilot, right? Back then IFR seemed scary. You had to follow rules and procedure and if you screwed up you get into trouble so VFR was the safe out...right?

But then you got your IFR ticket and started to fly commercially. After years of just doing as your told now VFR seems scary. It's scary because you don't do it often and you're affraid ATC won't be there to save you. I've called Lockheed and there are no TFRs. We have a sectional on the iPad with a GPS input. What's the problem?

Still, guys are way out of there comfort zone. I don't cancel IFR unless they agree and many times we fly the extra 100 miles so as to stay on the flight plan route even though cancelling would have gotten us direct.

My point, I guess, is that we all have a comfort zone. If you can recognise that it's just that and move on things open up. VFR guys learning IFR need not be affraid and (I see this all the time believe it or not) IFR guys going VFR need not be affraid either.

I'd guess some here are shocked by this but it's the truth. I'd guess around 85% of the 121 pilots out there would be scared to death to go on a 100 mile cross country VFR. I kid not.
Click to expand...

Captain said:
Soooooo....I take it that it was you with Kimberly?

Okay. Do you see my point about many jet pilots not being comfortable fly VFR when they are PIC? Heck, I'm the PIC and I have FOs that don't like the idea of me cancelling IFR to go straight to the field.

I fly to HPN from Florida all the time. The Rudy2 is the arrival and takes you way up Long Island. I prefer, on a clear day, to simply fly direct DPK and cross it at 7,500, descend just outside JFKs class B to 2,500 and turn in. Pull up the chart and see how much time that saves. Some (read most) say flat out 'no' and others are obviously out of the comfort zone. I don't think anybody has not needed some reassurance that it can be done safely. I show them the airspace, what the plan is and assure them I've done it many times before. As I'm the Captain most go along. If they don't we stay on course IFR and we fly and extra 25 or 20 minutes and see another 100 miles of America.
Click to expand...

Everskyward said:
Why do you think it's great?

I've never been a 121 pilot but what I was questioning was this.

So you're using your position to pressure the FOs into doing something with which they are not comfortable? Needlessly? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
Click to expand...


This is what I don't get. I say twice I don't ever make my FOs go out of their comfort zone and your response is, "so you're using your position to pressure..."

This is PoA. Most here fly VFR all the time and I thought it might be interesting to point out that what they do routinely would scare most 747 Captains. I tried to relate that to my experience of utilising VFR in a multi crew airplane when it makes sense. Sometimes I think I could post 'water is wet' and people would take offense to that.

I thought Kimberly said she took 'a jet pilot' flying VFR and he seemed relaxed and you said you were that pilot. I ventured that the pilot was relaxed VFR because she was PIC and familiar and this all broke loose.

It's no big deal, that's just how I saw this all go down. I don't remember saying anything here divisive and really don't know if we're arguing or not and if we are then why?
 
Captain said:
This is PoA. Most here fly VFR all the time and I thought it might be interesting to point out that what they do routinely would scare most 747 Captains. I tried to relate that to my experience of utilising VFR in a multi crew airplane when it makes sense.
Click to expand...
You're right. I'd bet most 747 Captains wouldn't duck under Class B airspace in order to cut the line and save a few minutes.
 
Captain said:
I thought Kimberly said she took 'a jet pilot' flying VFR and he seemed relaxed and you said you were that pilot. I ventured that the pilot was relaxed VFR because she was PIC and familiar and this all broke loose.

It's no big deal, that's just how I saw this all go down. I don't remember saying anything here divisive and really don't know if we're arguing or not and if we are then why?
Click to expand...

Didn't someone already mention what assuming does?

If Everskyward seemed anything other than relaxed in an aircraft I'd be surprised. She was just fine flying my "little" airplane cross-country and then three landings (with flight in the pattern between landings. :wink2:).

If you're arguing with Everskyward then it's all pretty much on you. Figure that statement to be true better than 99% of the time.
 
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