"Cleared into the Class Bravo"

[midlifeflyer]

This past weekend, my flying club had a group trip to Charlotte to visit the aviation museum on the east side of the airport. For those unfamiliar, KCLT has 3 N-S runways and a E-W runway that is rarely used.

Our 14 airplanes, some VFR and some on IFR flight plans were coming in at about the same time and, as we approached, VFR, I kept my eye on the altitudes of the Class B wedding cake. I could hear a couple of "Cleared into the Class B" here and there. As we approached the segment that would put us into the Class B at our altitude, I still hadn't hear it for our aircraft. Since my rule is to (almost*) never assume the clearance, I keyed the mike and said, "Approach. 16J. Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo." The controller, who was doing an absolutely fantastic job of sequencing us for landing during a busy "push time" responded, "Everyone I am talking to is cleared into the Class B."

*almost = I have to admit I did assume we were cleared into the Class B when we departed KCLT

 

[JasonM]

Is that a legal response from ATC? just curious if you could accept that without your tail number etc. being on record.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is that a legal response from ATC? just curious if you could accept that without your tail number etc. being on record.

We accepted it. Can't see a problem. Not sure what you mean by a "legal" response.

 

[MikeELP]

Is that a legal response from ATC? just curious if you could accept that without your tail number etc. being on record.

I would wonder as well and be VERY hesitant and ask for confirmation. If my tail number isn't directly attached to the magic words...I'm going to ask.

 

[EdFred]

I would wonder as well and be VERY hesitant and ask for confirmation. If my tail number isn't directly attached to the magic words...I'm going to ask.

I'm not going to clog up an already busy frequency if a hear something like that. And if I were a controller, and I got that, I would respond with "everyone I'm talking to except [your tail number] is cleared into the Bravo."

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not going to clog up an already busy frequency if a hear something like that. And if I were a controller, and I got that, I would respond with "everyone I'm talking to except [your tail number] is cleared into the Bravo."

I like that!

For those concerned, keep in mind the context (yes, context is everything).

We were not just individual aircraft happening to request clearance to transit through the Class B from multiple directions with different destinations. We were a group of expected aircraft coming from the same departure airport and landing at the Class B primary. Some of us came at a higher altitude and were cleared into the Class B earlier. The controller who made the statement was our final TRACON controller (within 15 NM of the airport) before going to Tower.

Actually, when he said it, I laughed. Reminded me of the bumper sticker, "If you can read this, you're too damn close!"

Interesting: given that we were landing at KCLT, I would have expected people to ask why I didn't just assume the clearance, not whether the clearance I received was "legal."

 

[MikeELP]

Well..I guess I'll yield to those of you who have more experience flying into Bravo than I do.

FWIW...my students will still be taught to get a clearance into Bravo with their tail number or ask for confirmation. It be what it be. But I see what you are talking about in your situation, Mark.

 

[BigBadLou]

I would have expected to hear "16J, your flight of 14 is clear into the Bravo".

I wonder if he also picked up the phone and gave a big heads up to KCLT tower, I am sure they had some fun time sequencing y'all in. "Sooo, who wants to go first?"

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would have expected to hear "16J, your flight of 14 is clear into the Bravo".

I wonder if he also picked up the phone and gave a big heads up to KCLT tower, I am sure they had some fun time sequencing y'all in. "Sooo, who wants to go first?"

We didn't file as a multiple plane flight on one flight plan. We we flying everything from 152 to Cirrus and took a variety of routes.

But yes, out organizer called ahead, especially since we were coming in at a busy time (don't know if I can link to a FaceBook photo but my copyright infringement below is what it looked like on short final; that was "our" runway; there were two other parallel ones in use) and were were using flight following as soon as we departed so hand-offs would be made instead of us cold-calling.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

You guys want more verification? Sounds like a PITA. It was pretty clear what he meant and I highly doubt anything would arise to the point of that transmission being dissected.

Yeah, go ahead and clog the frequency on a push. See how that works out for you.

 

[docmirror]

We didn't file as a multiple plane flight on one flight plan. We we flying everything from 152 to Cirrus and took a variety of routes.

But yes, out organizer called ahead, especially since we were coming in at a busy time (don't know if I can link to a FaceBook photo but my copyright infringement below is what it looked like on short final; that was "our" runway; there were two other parallel ones in use) and were were using flight following as soon as we departed so hand-offs would be made instead of us cold-calling.

I'd advise next time to request a taxiway for landing traffic, but worried about some wake turb with that lineup.

 

[FlySince9]

NEVER NEVER NEVER enter class B without your tailnumber being in the clearance... I fly around CLT and I have had a few issues with that facility... 'course I'm VFR... so I'm already considered a pain in the butt! So basically, in this situation, everybody within the sound of his voice is cleared into the class B? really? Poor, Poor Controller behavior IHO! I think CLT is a training facility too, so winging it with non-standard procedures is at your own risk!

 

[EdFred]

NEVER NEVER NEVER enter class B without your tailnumber being in the clearance... I fly around CLT and I have had a few issues with that facility... 'course I'm VFR... so I'm already considered a pain in the butt! So basically, in this situation, everybody within the sound of his voice is cleared into the class B? really? Poor, Poor Controller behavior IHO! I think CLT is a training facility too, so winging it with non-standard procedures is at your own risk!

Not the case. "...everyone I am talking to..." not "...anyone who can hear me..."

 

[FlySince9]

Not the case. "...everyone I am talking to..." not "...anyone who can hear me..."

Are we supposed to memorize his voice? What if somebody else was outside waiting to get in, heard that, and mistakenly assumed it was the controller he initially made contact with? I still say, "no tailnumber, clarify or stay out!"

 

[frfly172]

Like it, the controller took charge,making it easier for everyone.

 

[Seanaldinho]

NEVER NEVER NEVER enter class B without your tailnumber being in the clearance... I fly around CLT and I have had a few issues with that facility... 'course I'm VFR... so I'm already considered a pain in the butt! So basically, in this situation, everybody within the sound of his voice is cleared into the class B? really? Poor, Poor Controller behavior IHO! I think CLT is a training facility too, so winging it with non-standard procedures is at your own risk!

First of all, the controller exercised his judgement and instead of clearing 15 planes into the bravo and tying up probably over 2 minutes of freq time he made it easier on himself. The only time you're gonna get busted for going into the bravo is if the controller doesn't clear you and you do it. The controller has to call you out for entering it. There isn't a magic alarm waiting for uncleared planes.

Second, if he was a trainee a trainer is plugged in next to him and if the trainer thought this was a problem he would've jumped on frequency and done what he felt he needed to do.

 

[EdFred]

Are we supposed to memorize his voice? What if somebody else was outside waiting to get in, heard that, and mistakenly assumed it was the controller he initially made contact with? I still say, "no tailnumber, clarify or stay out!"

Memorize whose voice? How many separate controllers are you talking to on the same frequency? The only person issuing instructions to go into the Bravo is the controller. If someone just pulls up the frequency and hasn't talked to the controller at all yet, the controller isn't talking to him.

If you overhear a conversation where I tell my six buddies they can use my chainsaw anytime they want, and I don't even know you are in the room do you really think I am talking to you? No. Same case here.

Everyone I am talking TO. You know if you are talking TO the controller or not. Or, at least, you should. And if you don't know who you are talking to...damn...just damn.

 

[ahkahn]

A lot of overly cautious people here. Keep in mind that once initial contact has been established you are legally on frequency and "talking to" the controller until dismissed or passed off. If the controller clears everyone he is talking to, that is your legal clearance so long as you're "talking" to the controller. If you happen to tune in the frequency, do not make contact, and hear that, you are NOT cleared. Pretty simple.

If it were to come to any type of hearing, the initial contact acknowledgement with your tail number at 12:00 and then the blanket clearance at 12:10 would be sufficient to clear the pilot of any bravo bust.

 

[petrolero]

A lot of overly cautious people here. Keep in mind that once initial contact has been established you are legally on frequency and "talking to" the controller until dismissed or passed off. If the controller clears everyone he is talking to, that is your legal clearance so long as you're "talking" to the controller. If you happen to tune in the frequency, do not make contact, and hear that, you are NOT cleared. Pretty simple.

If it were to come to any type of hearing, the initial contact acknowledgement with your tail number at 12:00 and then the blanket clearance at 12:10 would be sufficient to clear the pilot of any bravo bust.

That's what I was going to confirm with the OP... if he was in two-way communication with the controller, his tail number at some point acknowledged, and hadn't received a "standby" or similar, then he was "talking to" the controller and vice versa.

So when the blanket "everyone I'm talking to" was issued, that's what it meant. Controllers use that phrase "talking to" all the time, although I'm not going to check and see if it's in the Glossary. Controllers will call out traffic and then offer something like "I'm not talking to him." I've heard it and asked it a zillion times. He's not speaking Martian.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Second, if he was a trainee a trainer is plugged in next to him and if the trainer thought this was a problem he would've jumped on frequency and done what he felt he needed to do.

I doubt a trainee would have the nerve to do something non-standard, even something as reasonable and logical as this.

 

[docmirror]

On the other hand, the controller issued a broadcast instruction over an open freq. So, technically he was talking 'to' everyone who was tuned to that freq at that time. I would hazard, that were I on that freq but simply monitoring, I would be cleared into the B given that ATC was talking 'to' all aircraft with the radio on and the freq tuned.

Sorta like a broadcast IP addr frame going on the wire. If you get it, you get it If the frame includes a datagram of 'cleared into the bravo' then you get in. If you are on the other side of the router(tuned to a diff freq) then you didn't get it, and you don't get in.

Not that I see anything technically wrong with the process.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's what I was going to confirm with the OP... if he was in two-way communication with the controller, his tail number at some point acknowledged, and hadn't received a "standby" or similar, then he was "talking to" the controller and vice versa.

Oh yes. If you read my post you saw it was my call that prompted the "everyone cleared." We had just been handed off to him by the prior approach sector and given a downwind vector.

 

[Seanaldinho]

I doubt a trainee would have the nerve to do something non-standard, even something as reasonable and logical as this.

I agree. The only exception being if the trainer told him to do so, which is perfectly possible.

 

[StinkBug]

NEVER NEVER NEVER enter class B without your tailnumber being in the clearance... I fly around CLT and I have had a few issues with that facility... 'course I'm VFR... so I'm already considered a pain in the butt! So basically, in this situation, everybody within the sound of his voice is cleared into the class B? really? Poor, Poor Controller behavior IHO! I think CLT is a training facility too, so winging it with non-standard procedures is at your own risk!

The regulations for 2 way communication require a call and a response with tail number. I'm assuming that everyone he was TALKING TO had already called in and gotten a response with tail number, especially since they were all on flight following. Basically he's already addressed each plane by tail number when you got onto his frequency and he's giving a mass clearance instead of wasting time. Talking to does not mean everybody that can hear, it means everyone I am already in communication with. Review class D procedures if you're still confused about what talking to means.

Also note, the one who is going to bust you for entering the Bravo is that controller. He just told everyone to come on in, do you really think he's gonna suddenly decide that you get busted? And even if he did a quick review of the tapes would absolve you of any guilt.

 

[MikeELP]

...I'm assuming that everyone he was TALKING TO had already called in and gotten a response with tail number.

And that's why I would want my specific tail number along with the "cleared into the Bravo"...

We all know what "assume" can mean.

I would "assume" that a controller at a busy Bravo would be able to handle individual clearances for each aircraft with tail number.

JMHO

 

[Seanaldinho]

And that's why I would want my specific tail number along with the "cleared into the Bravo"...

We all know what "assume" can mean.

I would "assume" that a controller at a busy Bravo would be able to handle individual clearances for each aircraft with tail number.

JMHO

Thats exactly why he can't do individual clearances at this point. He has a surge of 15 planes at varying speeds and altitudes he needs to get lined up and handed off to tower. Its not a matter of he couldn't do it its a matter of keeping everyone separated is more important.

The only person who can get you in trouble for busting the bravo is the controller, if you know he is speaking to you you're fine.

It worked.

 

[MikeELP]

Thats exactly why he can't do individual clearances at this point. He has a surge of 15 planes at varying speeds and altitudes he needs to get lined up and handed off to tower. Its not a matter of he couldn't do it its a matter of keeping everyone separated is more important. .

So if separation, altitudes and speeds for sequencing were important, wouldn't it make more sense to clear each aircraft in one-by-one instead of "hey y'all...come on in".

 

[EdFred]

So if separation, altitudes and speeds for sequencing were important, wouldn't it make more sense to clear each aircraft in one-by-one instead of "hey y'all...come on in".

Nope.

 

[Lindberg]

And that's why I would want my specific tail number along with the "cleared into the Bravo"...

We all know what "assume" can mean.

I would "assume" that a controller at a busy Bravo would be able to handle individual clearances for each aircraft with tail number.

We're assuming because we weren't there. If we'd been there, we wouldn't need to assume, we'd know.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Funny stuff. Some folks will nitpick anything. The controller said come on in. They went. Not much left to ponder.

OP, sounds like it was a good time.

 

[Approach_controller]

If you want clarification then get clarification, but honestly there is no need to lawyer it to death. If the controller was to attempt to violate someone in your flight the tapes would be pulled and reviewed at least twice before action would be taken (ATC QA and FSDO). Plain English is allowed in other than normal operations and surely one of the two reviewers speak normal English. The controller would also have to be a spineless somethingorother to try to deny giving a clearance with that audio and even then, separation would have to be lost on a VFR on final which is impressively difficult to do before they ever raised their paper thin defense of I didn't say his callsign!

To the OP, I never begrudge a pilot wanting a clarification, ESPECIALLY when its pilot deviation worthy. I understand many in my profession get angry when such clarifications are asked for and I make it a personal point to than a pilot for asking. From my perspective though, if traffic and separation is an issue I'll clear you in individually with absolute instructions. If I'm staring at a dead scope/unimpeded final, the CLT controller's clearance is much easier than 5 minutes of bravo clearances. Although I teach trainees to clear in on initial contact if its obviously needed as its far easier to say N12345 altimeter 29.92 cleared to enter xyz class bravo. Get it over with.

Also, I'm amazed people here consider CLT a training facility. I mean there is a controller in training in probably 98% of ATC facilities at all times, but I take it to mean a slow tower/approach. CLT is probably the busiest up/down (ie everyone works every tower and approach position) in the US.

 

[FlySince9]

I'm just going to say, that you can argue this all day long... But if it were me, and based on the kinds of attitudes and personalites that I've dealt with at that particular facility in the past... I would have double checked... It only would have taken a second and if he were that busy, he wouldn't have allowed an armata to enter his airspace at one time. With that... I defer to the masses!

 

[midlifeflyer]

So if separation, altitudes and speeds for sequencing were important, wouldn't it make more sense to clear each aircraft in one-by-one instead of "hey y'all...come on in".

We were all already being sequenced. Had been since well before reaching the lateral boundary of the Class B (without regard to altitude). If we had access to the landlines, I wouldn't be surprised to find we were being sequenced before we ever spoke to the first KCLT TRACON sector.

This has been a fascinating thread. I started it as a simple example of what I thought was a humorous but effective way for a controller to handle the situation (it is now my favorite controller response to a "confirm cleared into the Class Bravo" query) and it took off in a direction I never expected. I didn't toss it on all the forums I frequent but with the "oooh! this is scary!" response here, I decided one more forum would be appropriate for comparison.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Funny stuff. Some folks will nitpick anything. The controller said come on in. They went. Not much left to ponder.

OP, sounds like it was a good time.

It was terrific. KCLT TRACON and Tower were so great to make space for us even though it was a push time. You can hear how busy it was by going to LiveATC archives and picking out KCLT Approach/Departure for this past Sunday at about noon. It unfortunately does not have the "everyone" clearance since the feed is from the sector before that one. But you will hear a number of other individual Class B clearances for light aircraft. My WAG is that the final TRACON controller handling us for the final 12 miles to landing figured everyone had already been cleared. We were at different altitudes so we would have entered the Class B at different distances.

 

[Everskyward]

We were all already being sequenced. Had been since well before reaching the lateral boundary of the Class B (without regard to altitude). If we had access to the landlines, I wouldn't be surprised to find we were being sequenced before we ever spoke to the first KCLT TRACON sector.

This has been a fascinating thread. I started it as a simple example of what I thought was a humorous but effective way for a controller to handle the situation (it is now my favorite controller response to a "confirm cleared into the Class Bravo" query) and it took off in a direction I never expected. I didn't toss it on all the forums I frequent but with the "oooh! this is scary!" response here, I decided one more forum would be appropriate for comparison.

When I read it I took it as relating a humorous occurrence and nothing more, but I'm also not surprised where it lead. In former days I would have been surprised at the concern but after reading the board for years I know there is a certain segment which can turn anything into something to worry about.

 

[Clark1961]

When I read it I took it as relating a humorous occurrence and nothing more, but I'm also not surprised where it lead. In former days I would have been surprised at the concern but after reading the board for years I know there is a certain segment which can turn anything into something to worry about.

I'm worried about you expecting to see worry here.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm worried about you expecting to see worry here.

I'm worried about you being worried.

 

[EdFred]

I don't give a crap about either of you.

 

[Henning]

This past weekend, my flying club had a group trip to Charlotte to visit the aviation museum on the east side of the airport. For those unfamiliar, KCLT has 3 N-S runways and a E-W runway that is rarely used.

Our 14 airplanes, some VFR and some on IFR flight plans were coming in at about the same time and, as we approached, VFR, I kept my eye on the altitudes of the Class B wedding cake. I could hear a couple of "Cleared into the Class B" here and there. As we approached the segment that would put us into the Class B at our altitude, I still hadn't hear it for our aircraft. Since my rule is to (almost*) never assume the clearance, I keyed the mike and said, "Approach. 16J. Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo." The controller, who was doing an absolutely fantastic job of sequencing us for landing during a busy "push time" responded, "Everyone I am talking to is cleared into the Class B."

*almost = I have to admit I did assume we were cleared into the Class B when we departed KCLT

See, this is where ATC and CFIs need to get this worked out. If they are going to relate a situation of implied Bravo Clearance, they need to spell that out in clear and specific language of when that occurs, because right now the rule that everyone is taught from day one is "Never without a clearance"

Now if you were operating as number four in a flight of ten, that is a specified exemption from a personal clearance since flight lead hands coordination for the whole flight of 10.

If this was just a fly in type situation where people were coming in on their own. I would assume that everyone requires an individual clearance before entering.

 

[paflyer]

Keep in mind that once initial contact has been established you are legally on frequency and "talking to" the controller until dismissed or passed off. If the controller clears everyone he is talking to, that is your legal clearance so long as you're "talking" to the controller.

C and D, yeah. NOT a Bravo. You want explicit clearance.