Class C vs Class D airports

timwinters said:
When I was based at KSGF I learned quickly that they never used Clearance Delivery. They wanted you to contact Ground on your initial contact for all flights. When unsure though, it's always better to go by the book.
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What book would that be?
 
COFlyBoy said:
I don't recall discussing CD during my primary training at all. I was under the impression it only applied to IFR until I got scolded by KCOS ground, who then gave me my clearance anyway.
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Taxi clearance?

By any chance did they refer to some publication that tells pilots they should call clearance delivery when departing a field in Class C airspace?
 
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roncachamp said:
By any chance did they refer to some publication that tells pilots they should call clearance delivery when departing a field in Class C airspace?
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AIM:
4-3-14. Communications
a. Pilots of departing aircraft should communicate
with the control tower on the appropriate ground
control/clearance delivery frequency prior to starting
engines to receive engine start time, taxi and/or
clearance information.

Still pretty vague to me. It never really specifies "appropriate" or how a pilot could find out what is appropriate.

Section 4-3-14 goes on to say:
Normally, only one
ground control frequency is assigned at an airport;
however, at locations where the amount of traffic so
warrants, a second ground control frequency and/or
another frequency designated as a clearance delivery
frequency, may be assigned.

This section just says they exist, but doesn't set any order of precedence or order of contact. It just sorta throws them out there. It doesn't tell me (the pilot) that I have to contact one before the other.
 
COFlyBoy said:
AIM:
4-3-14. Communications
a. Pilots of departing aircraft should communicate
with the control tower on the appropriate ground
control/clearance delivery frequency prior to starting
engines to receive engine start time, taxi and/or
clearance information.

Still pretty vague to me. It never really specifies "appropriate" or how a pilot could find out what is appropriate.

Section 4-3-14 goes on to say:
Normally, only one
ground control frequency is assigned at an airport;
however, at locations where the amount of traffic so
warrants, a second ground control frequency and/or
another frequency designated as a clearance delivery
frequency, may be assigned.

This section just says they exist, but doesn't set any order of precedence or order of contact. It just sorta throws them out there. It doesn't tell me (the pilot) that I have to contact one before the other.
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Para 4-3-14 does not differentiate between classes of airspace or VFR/IFR operations. It's appropriate to contact clearance delivery where a clearance is needed; VFR departures in Class B airspace or IFR departures in any controlled airspace.

Para 3−2−3. Class B Airspace speaks of communications with clearance delivery for VFR departures, para 3−2−4. Class C Airspace does not mention clearance delivery.
 
KLBB always said on their ATIS which to contact. Most of the time it was ground but every now and then it would be CD, and they would get onto you for not calling. I was moving parking spots on time so I called ground directly and he still go onto me for it.
 
roncachamp said:
Who is recommending that practice?
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What would Steve do if we stole is question mark key?
A. Explode
B. Disintegrate
C. Cease being with a loud 'pop'
D. Start posting statements instead of questions
 
...not to step into a peeing match when the streams are about to cross, but... :

I enjoy roncachamp's desire for precision. I believe most controllers have this mindset, and the topic is basically "how to interface correctly with Class C controllers" -- so I find his insight valuable. It might be delivered with all of the delicacy of a nutpunching, but I find it worth more than I paid for it. :D

Locally here in Los Angeles (KSNA, KONT, KBUR), the ATIS will indicate something similar to "VFR Departures, contact clearance delivery on 1xx.xx with requested altitude and direction of flight prior to taxi"

If I am uncertain, and there was no instruction on the ATIS, I have never had a problem calling up CD and saying "Ontario Clearance, Bonanza 76KU, VFR Request" -- if I am told to "contact ground", then I've only wasted 10 seconds. If I am subsequently scolded, I get to tie up the frequency with "but they told me to contact you", and I don't get my feelings hurt.

So Ed's "master plan" would work great -- with the idea that calling CD may not be required/expected at all class C airports. Which is what I interpreted roncachamp's input to be.

$0.02

- Mike
 
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schmookeeg said:
I enjoy roncachamp's desire for precision. I believe most controllers have this mindset, and the topic is basically "how to interface correctly with Class C controllers" -- so I find his insight valuable. It might be delivered with all of the delicacy of a nutpunching, but I find it worth more than I paid for it. :D
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Agreed, on the value and delivery.

To sum up: POA successfully armed the OP with the knowledge to successfully navigate the CD situation at a Class C airport.

I'm still annoyed that it takes some tribal knowledge to know if you need to contact CD (I'm sure the ATIS didn't tell me too, or I would have known I should). And the AIM only tells us to contact CD at Class B airports, not Class C, but it does say a Class C airport may have a CD frequency.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I'm still annoyed that it takes some tribal knowledge to know if you need to contact CD (I'm sure the ATIS didn't tell me too, or I would have known I should). And the AIM only tells us to contact CD at Class B airports, not Class C, but it does say a Class C airport may have a CD frequency.
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Agreed -- and the ATIS usually -- usually-- has such a statement.

There are only 2 Class C's within a day's flight I've even been near, and I've only flown to Allentown once back as an XC point during my Student days.

There are far too many friendlier, more convenient GA airports that allow us to avoid B and C fields unless absolutely necessary.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I'm still annoyed that it takes some tribal knowledge to know if you need to contact CD (I'm sure the ATIS didn't tell me too, or I would have known I should). And the AIM only tells us to contact CD at Class B airports, not Class C, but it does say a Class C airport may have a CD frequency.
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Just to throw out a couple of more datapoints for VFR departures, KMKC has the same freq for ground and clearance delivery, so you can't hardly screw up there. At KDSM I contact ground and they seem fine with that. Neither of them are particularly busy airports, so maybe that has something to do with it.
 
Scolded--------Not Scolded
KCOS
KABQ
KMHT
KSRQ
KBNA
KLNK------------KLNK
KDAB

There was a period of time when KHPN required you call Clearance Delivery before VFR or IFR departure even though they are Class D.
 
Scolded--------Not Scolded
KCOS
KABQ
KMHT
KSRQ
KBNA
KLNK------------KLNK
KDAB
------------------KTLH

I'm not sure if it was scolding...

They told me, do you want to depart back to gainesville? I was like yep.

then they told me to call clearance... I guess it was a really nice scolding?
 
COFlyBoy said:
I'm thinking if ground and CD are the same person the shouldn't be so picky. Maybe should also ask why they bother with a CD.
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At certain times of day (or perhaps when one controller is taking a break) at my local airport I believe ground and tower are also the same person.

I suspect that there are two benefits to having separate frequencies:

a) it lets you have two people do the job at times when the airport is busier. (If you didn't have two published frequencies, you wouldn't have this option.)

b) it lets you prioritize ground ops over clearances. Clearances tie up the frequency for a long time, during which controllers can't talk to moving planes, and they can't talk to the tower. At busier airports it is safer to move clearances to their own frequency and leave ground for shorter, more urgent messages.

Chris
 
At KTYS, we always contact CD first, but when it's quiet, they'll tell you to contact tower for taxi rather than ground.
 
The lesson to take away here is...

If theres an approach control, call them when inbound for sequencing. They will hand you to tower. (Class C, TRSA with Class D, and Class B). Some places you CAN call tower directly. And some will cut you off and tell you to call approach. ATIS usually has something regarding this.

If theres a tower on fiend, check ATIS (or Departure ATIS if a discrete one exists) for local preference for VFR departures. Some you call ground. Some you call Departure. There's no firm rule of thumb for local preferences.
 
The class D I fly out of (KOLM) has one voice on the radio. And transmits simultaneously on Tower and Ground. You just have to remember to transmit on the right one. Although I suspect that the world would not come to an end if you messed up and used the tower frequency when you really wanted ground. A gentle reminder, perhaps. The closest I've heard them come to jumping on someone was a few years ago when a student pilot (not me) was failing to read back hold short instructions. The tower gave him a quick lecture on the subject and suggested that he not make that mistake elsewhere where they aren't as forgiving. We have a lot of student pilot traffic and the airport management insists on "user friendly" controllers in our contract tower. And, they are.
 
Scolded--------Not Scolded
KCOS
KABQ
KMHT
KSRQ
KBNA
KLNK------------KLNK
KDAB
------------------KTLH
KAUS

---

I am based at a CLass D field (ADS) at which there is a CLD frequency which is active about half the time, but you only contact CLD if you are using flight-following (Oh, sorry Stephen, VFR Traffic Advisories), need a clearance into the Class B, or are IFR.

And, when approaching ADS, you must (no exception) contact Regional Approach for sequencing.

The ATIS typically tells you the current mojo.
 
In many years of stumbling through the alphabet airspaces my habit is to just call what I think is the right frequency (usually the "published" one on the chart)...

If that is not the correct frequency of the moment (potty break, safety meeting, shift change, feeling ornery, really busy, I'm confused) they will send me to the 'correct' frequency <shrug>... Once in a while they grumble about it (so what?) but usually it is just a curt "contact xyz at xxx.xx"

Meanwhile I stumble along in a pleasant daze - and always seem to get there...

denny-o
 
flyersfan31 said:
OK, so no 'departure clearance' but you have to call clearance delivery, even if you're vfr or you get scolded. I've BTDT too.
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I think this is airport dependant. At MYR the ATIS usually says something to the effect "VFR departures contact Ground with direction of flight."
 
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