Class B Frustration at U42 (South of KSLC)

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ruthsindelar

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Ruth
I'm a CFII and use to do alot of IFR flight instruction in the California Bay Area. Now I am based just south of KSLC at U42. I have gotten frustrated now that I am doing IFR instruction in the Salt Lake City Area. Here is the issue....

It is very difficult to get an IFR clearance into our home base at U42 (or out of it for that matter).

Recently, I filed a 60 nm IFR flightplan from an airport north of the Class B to U42. Later that day (~ 6 hours later), I departed KBMC on time and in VFR conditions and, while airborne, called approach to pick up my filed IFR clearance. It was a beautiful VFR day but it was a training flight for a student and thus I wanted the IFR clearance.

I was told the clearance was not ready and would not be ready for at least an hour. He then told me (and I quote as close to verbatum as possible) ... "be advised that the Class B airspace exists for routing aircraft into and out of Salt Lake City International airport".

I'm an ATP rated pilot and am comfortable working with controllers. I know how to respectfully and professionally work with the various controllers. It was clear, he was not going to give me my IFR clearance so I advised I could do the flight VFR and requested advisories and clearance into the Class B so that my student could still shoot the approach as published. After some polite prodding, I received my clearance into Class B.

So what is up? This flight was at a slow time for KSLC. I use to fly alot out of Palo Alto airport (PAO) which is squeezed between KSFO to the north, KOAK to the east and KSJC to the south. Despite this tight airspace, these controllers were very accomodating and did everything possible to help the pilot obtain the clearance he needed. Why is the system around the Class B for KSLC so different/difficult?

I'm not complaining. I am honestly looking for some information to help me understand and also to see if folks think there is anything that can be done to improve it.

Doesn't the Class B exist due to high traffic demands in the overall area and don't controllers have some duty to serve aircraft other than those coming into KSLC?

It is not just this isolated incident. It has been a continuous struggle over the past 6-9 months to get any Class B clearance here regardless of the time of day, how busy or what the weather conditions are. I waited 2 hours on the ground at KPVU to get an IFR clearance back to U42 when the weather shut down one evening. I bet if I was coming down from KBOI to U42 and picking up my clearance from a Boise controller, he would have cleared me as filed and I would have gotten into U42 sooner. Since the KPVU clearance was picked up from Salt Lake, they simply refused/delayed issuing it. Seems a bit unreasonable to me but perhaps I am missing something important.

Two questions for the controllers on the board or to those pilots who may have some experience in this area...

- Why do you think this situation exists as it does. If the Bay Area controllers could work me in regularly to KPAO with my more complex/controlled airspace, why is KSLC so different. Again, I'm not complaining, just looking for information.

- Is there a reasonable avenue for general aviation pilots to go through to work with Center/Approach/Departure and see if there might be some middle ground that works for all parties involved to make the neighborhing airports more accessible for IFR flights?

This forum is a great resource. Thanks to all of you who put in time to sharing your knowledge and ideas. I look forward to any and all suggestions...
 
The controller was clearly not providing service in accordance with JO7110.65T.

2-1-4. OPERATIONAL PRIORITY
Provide air traffic control service to aircraft on a “first
come, first served” basis as circumstances permit,
except the following: [which says nothing about aircraft going in and out of SLC, airliners, etc.]

I know I'd be calling AOPA bright and early Monday morning.
 
I did my initial flight training at PVU 20 years ago. After reading your posting I can assure you that nothing has changed in SLC. Have you tried having your students do their IFR work in OGD, PVU or TVY. The only way that we used to be able to get to do IFR work at airports near SLC was to do it in the middle of the night. Have you tried doing approaches to SLC? They are a pain to deal with.

I just did a trip into SLC this last week. We had about 10 speed changes and different vectors starting clear back at MLF. We were moved off of our arrival to another on and then back to the original one again. Then once we got to the airport there was no one on approach or very close behind us Yet they still wanted 180 kts until we were on a 3 mile final.

Do they still let you do practice PAR's out at Michael?
 
Ruth,
Welcome to the board!
I haven't flown in the SLC airspace, but I fly around ORD, where TRACON's attitude is very similar. Looking back, I see that there have been some issues in the SLC area that lead to some redesign work about a decade ago. AOPA filed a brief on it. According to the Feb 2004 Salt Lake City Dept. of Airports GA Newsletter, there used to be a GA Hotline at SLC: 575-2443. It's probably geared more towards GA flying into SLC itself, but they may be able to stear you in the right direction. I don't know if it's still operational.
 
Are you trying to shot the GPS into 34 for u42?

I only could get cleared on that one every once in a great while, if you look at the missed on the approch it takes you into their airspace, thus is why I was allways told that you have a hard time getting it.

As far as just getting into their airspace, never had problems, I flew down to u42 almost everyday for awhile, they were always very good to work with me.

I did most of my training out of u42, and at times they didn't want us in there, but I found it more when I was in one of the club planes, when I would call in my mooney, they would always give me clearance. Don't know why for sure.

Hey did you guys ever get anywhere on the WAAS approach they were trying to get?
 
I've had some significant issues with SLC approach when operating from U42 in IMC, mostly when attempting to depart:

www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6196

www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32795

And you're not the only other one who's run into issues with them:

www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34241

IME SLC is somewhat accommodating to VFR traffic and does pretty well with incoming IFR traffic to U42 but due to some policies I just don't understand, they can't figure out how to handle IMC departures from U42.
 
That's why I try to go VFR into and out of airports near bad barvos if I can. What a PITA.

Never dealt with SLC, but a few weeks ago I did go into Deer Valley on the northwest side of Phoenix. Heading into the airport I was routed all the way around the east and south ends of the Bravo before being sent back up north. I about told the controller that he needed to go to New York and learn how to opearte a proper goat rodeo. New York can be annoying, but they handle it a lot better Phoenix did - it wasn't even busy.

Sorry to hear about the troubles you're having.
 
One of the big problems with airborne IFR pickups is that they can't issue the clearance until they have a clear space in which to put you. If there's a steady flow of IFR traffic through the area where you pop up, there's nothing they can do to fit you in without stopping the show for everyone else. The only sure way to get an IFR clearance is to get it on the ground before takeoff. Otherwise, you go to the end of the line behind everyone who already has one (see "first come, first served," above), and as you learned, that can be a very long line. Perhaps you should be asking SLC Approach the best way to get your IFR clearance on the ground at U42. Possibilities include a direct phone number to the TRACON (as we have here for Potomac TRACON), and the national IFR clearance number 888-766-8267.

And, FWIW, the person with whom you spoke is correct about the purpose of Class B airspace. It is designed to contain the heavy/jet IFR traffic going in and out of the central airport, and keep them away from the light plane traffic going around and under the heavy/jet traffic. The whole Class B concept (actually, the TCA's which became Class B during the airspace reclassification 15-20 years ago) arose from an accident in Indiana in which a DC-9 at 3000 feet 30 miles from its destination of Indianapolis literally ran over a Cherokee from behind. The FAA decide to keep the airliners and their ilk higher until closer in, allowing the light/slow traffic to operate below them while going around the central airport. TCA's were developed not to keep the little guys out, but to keep the big guys in while allowing the little guys to go around at what they considered reasonable distances from the main airport.
 
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gismo said:
I've had some significant issues with SLC approach when operating from U42 in IMC, mostly when attempting to depart
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Same here. In fact I would say it's the most difficult airport from which to obtain an IFR clearance as any I've ever flown out of, and that's quite a few.
 
Ruth,

I think this is more kudo's for NorCal (and SoCal) than criticism of the Salt Lake people.

Sorry to hear it though.

Joe
 
Have you tried to contact the Tower Chief or Head Controller, or whatever they're called, and ask him/her for advice on how to make it happen?

I'm an IR student out of a Class D airport under KMEM's Bravo. Memphis has some of the best Approach/Departure Controllers. Probably very similar to what you have been used to around SFO. They are very good with us students and seem to work with us whenever we ask. I'm sorry you and your students are having a positive experience, as you know not all ATC is like that but your students may not know it.
 
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wpierce said:
Have you tried to contact the Tower Chief or Head Controller, or whatever they're called, and ask him/her for advice on how to make it happen?

I'm an IR student out of a Class D airport under KMEM's Bravo. Memphis has some of the best Approach/Departure Controllers. Probably very similar to what you have been used to around SFO. They are very good with us students and seem to work with us whenever we ask. I'm sorry you and your students are having a positive experience, as you know not all ATC is like that but your students may not know it.
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I spent more than an hour on the phone with the TRACON supervisor trying to find a way to make an IFR departure work and got nowhere other than learning about how the narrow valley limits their options. I still can't believe something couldn't be made to work with IFR GPS and direct communication with approach control from the ground at U42 (I had all that but it was still no go). The bottom line is that with their current policies they have to completely stop arrivals and/or departures from the main airport for as long as 10 minutes in order to let one airplane depart form U42 in IMC.
 
gismo said:
I spent more than an hour on the phone with the TRACON supervisor trying to find a way to make an IFR departure work and got nowhere other than learning about how the narrow valley limits their options. I still can't believe something couldn't be made to work with IFR GPS and direct communication with approach control from the ground at U42 (I had all that but it was still no go). The bottom line is that with their current policies they have to completely stop arrivals and/or departures from the main airport for as long as 10 minutes in order to let one airplane depart form U42 in IMC.
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Taking a quick look at the Chart I can see the problem. U42 is boxed in between mountains, restricted area's and it's just too darn close the KSLC.
 
Ron Levy said:
One of the big problems with airborne IFR pickups is that they can't issue the clearance until they have a clear space in which to put you. If there's a steady flow of IFR traffic through the area where you pop up, there's nothing they can do to fit you in without stopping the show for everyone else. The only sure way to get an IFR clearance is to get it on the ground before takeoff. Otherwise, you go to the end of the line behind everyone who already has one (see "first come, first served," above), and as you learned, that can be a very long line. Perhaps you should be asking SLC Approach the best way to get your IFR clearance on the ground at U42. Possibilities include a direct phone number to the TRACON (as we have here for Potomac TRACON), and the national IFR clearance number 888-766-8267.
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Ron, how would picking up the clearance on the ground have helped the situation? The controller told her it would be an hour before he could issue the clearance. It would actually require a larger hole in traffic to fit someone on the ground than someone already in the air because the controller has to allow for the [unknown] amount of time it will take for the plane to actually take off.

Your application of "first come, first served" in this case effectively means that priority goes to whoever got their clearance first--the the B-767 arriving from Heathrow has priority over the B-737 from LAX, which has priority over the King Air from Pocatello. I guess they'll have to input the time a clearance was given and have it print out on flight progress strips down the line so controllers know who has priority.

This incident clearly demonstrates an attitudinal problem on the part of the controller, if not the entire facility.

Ron Levy said:
And, FWIW, the person with whom you spoke is correct about the purpose of Class B airspace. It is designed to contain the heavy/jet IFR traffic going in and out of the central airport, and keep them away from the light plane traffic going around and under the heavy/jet traffic. The whole Class B concept (actually, the TCA's which became Class B during the airspace reclassification 15-20 years ago) arose from an accident in Indiana in which a DC-9 at 3000 feet 30 miles from its destination of Indianapolis literally ran over a Cherokee from behind. The FAA decide to keep the airliners and their ilk higher until closer in, allowing the light/slow traffic to operate below them while going around the central airport. TCA's were developed not to keep the little guys out, but to keep the big guys in while allowing the little guys to go around at what they considered reasonable distances from the main airport.
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Not sure who you/what are responding to. According to JO7400.2B...

a. The primary purpose of a Class B airspace area is to reduce the potential for midair collisions in the airspace surrounding airports with high density air traffic operations. Aircraft operating in these airspace areas are subject to certain operating rules and equipment requirements.
b. Additionally, Class B airspace areas are designed to enhance the management of air traffic operations to and from the airports therein, and through the airspace area.
Click to expand...
 
kkoran said:
?????? The controller didn't want to the IFR clearance for the IFR flightplan she had filed.
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And when you fly around bravos it's not uncommon to get treatment that involves ground delays, idioting reroutings that take you far out of the way, etc.

I've found that going IFR around bravos will frequently add 20 minutes to an hour of flight time. That's $60-200 in my airplane that I have to pay. When I can go IFR direct and it's not an issue, I do so, but around bravos I'm much more likely to go VFR unless I have to.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
And when you fly around bravos it's not uncommon to get treatment that involves ground delays, idioting reroutings that take you far out of the way, etc.

I've found that going IFR around bravos will frequently add 20 minutes to an hour of flight time. That's $60-200 in my airplane that I have to pay. When I can go IFR direct and it's not an issue, I do so, but around bravos I'm much more likely to go VFR unless I have to.
Click to expand...

Never thought I'd say this, but you gotta love NYC Bravo. Right on through over JFK, every time. No reroutes or bs.
 
kkoran said:
Ron, how would picking up the clearance on the ground have helped the situation?
Click to expand...
It would have allowed them to sit it out on the ground rather than burning avgas going around in circles waiting in the air. However, as we have since learned from Lance's call to the TRACON, the problem lies deeper than what I thought. In this case, because of the mountainous terrain around the airport, the controller must clear the airspace very high above it before releasing the aircraft from the ground. It seems that to do so, the controller must shut off arrivals/departures to/from SLC due to having no space below the arrival/departure routes to fit an IFR departure from U42. If you're on the ground, that means making at least a 10-minute hole in the traffic flow so you can take off and climb into radar contacta before they can start the conga line rolling again, and apparently, they're just not going to do that. They will instead wait for a hole to appear on its own, and then fit you in, and in this case, it seems there wasn't going to be such a hole for at least an hour. As you note...
The controller told her it would be an hour before he could issue the clearance. It would actually require a larger hole in traffic to fit someone on the ground than someone already in the air because the controller has to allow for the [unknown] amount of time it will take for the plane to actually take off.
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I suspect that had Ruth been able to fly VFR to a place outside that arrival flow but within the controller's radar-visible airspace and above the MIA/MVA, she could have gottent the clearance, but perhaps terrain or weather made it impossible to get to such a place VFR without penetrating the B-space. You'll have to ask her.
Your application of "first come, first served" in this case effectively means that priority goes to whoever got their clearance first--the the B-767 arriving from Heathrow has priority over the B-737 from LAX, which has priority over the King Air from Pocatello. I guess they'll have to input the time a clearance was given and have it print out on flight progress strips down the line so controllers know who has priority.
Click to expand...
Not quite what I meant to say. What it means is they won't divert already-cleared IFR traffic to make a hole to fit in a pop-up, and the pop-up will have to wait for a hole in which to be fitted.
This incident clearly demonstrates an attitudinal problem on the part of the controller, if not the entire facility.
Click to expand...
I hardly think that's true, unless you're suggesting that a proper attitude would be to shut off all inbound SLC traffic for 10 minutes to allow one IFR departure, or accommodate an IFR pop-up. Do you really think that's the way it should be?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
And when you fly around bravos it's not uncommon to get treatment that involves ground delays, idioting reroutings that take you far out of the way, etc.
Click to expand...
My experience with the NY and BaltoWash B-spaces is just the opposite -- if you're VFR, you get told "remain clear" and must go over/under/around, while IFR traffic gets routed right through. For example, when going from SBY to GAI VFR, I have to go all the way around the north side or through the Fort Meade Gap. OTOH, if I file IFR, I get SBY direct BAL direct GAI. But on the third hand, going from Long Island to Baltimore, Philly sends IFR traffic on V16, but VFR traffic can usually go through the Bravo near PHL. So, as always, YMMV.
 
kkoran said:
Not sure who you/what are responding to. According to JO7400.2B...
Click to expand...
I can't speak to the JO you cite, but I do remember the institution of TCA's and the justifications given at the time, and the DC-9/PA-28 accident near (well, not all that near) Indianapolis was at the top of the page. The "keep 'em high" program was closely related and based on the same issues.
 
Ron Levy said:
Originally Posted by kkoran
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Ron Levy said:

Ron, how would picking up the clearance on the ground have helped the situation?

It would have allowed them to sit it out on the ground rather than burning avgas going around in circles waiting in the air. However, as we have since learned from Lance's call to the TRACON, the problem lies deeper than what I thought. In this case, because of the mountainous terrain around the airport, the controller must clear the airspace very high above it before releasing the aircraft from the ground. It seems that to do so, the controller must shut off arrivals/departures to/from SLC due to having no space below the arrival/departure routes to fit an IFR departure from U42. If you're on the ground, that means making at least a 10-minute hole in the traffic flow so you can take off and climb into radar contacta before they can start the conga line rolling again, and apparently, they're just not going to do that. They will instead wait for a hole to appear on its own, and then fit you in, and in this case, it seems there wasn't going to be such a hole for at least an hour. As you note...

The controller told her it would be an hour before he could issue the clearance. It would actually require a larger hole in traffic to fit someone on the ground than someone already in the air because the controller has to allow for the [unknown] amount of time it will take for the plane to actually take off.

I suspect that had Ruth been able to fly VFR to a place outside that arrival flow but within the controller's radar-visible airspace and above the MIA/MVA, she could have gottent the clearance, but perhaps terrain or weather made it impossible to get to such a place VFR without penetrating the B-space. You'll have to ask her.

Your application of "first come, first served" in this case effectively means that priority goes to whoever got their clearance first--the the B-767 arriving from Heathrow has priority over the B-737 from LAX, which has priority over the King Air from Pocatello. I guess they'll have to input the time a clearance was given and have it print out on flight progress strips down the line so controllers know who has priority.

Not quite what I meant to say. What it means is they won't divert already-cleared IFR traffic to make a hole to fit in a pop-up, and the pop-up will have to wait for a hole in which to be fitted.

This incident clearly demonstrates an attitudinal problem on the part of the controller, if not the entire facility.

I hardly think that's true, unless you're suggesting that a proper attitude would be to shut off all inbound SLC traffic for 10 minutes to allow one IFR departure, or accommodate an IFR pop-up. Do you really think that's the way it should be?
Click to expand...

Ruth's post was somewhat confusing, but I read it as she had departed KBMC and wanted to pick up her clearance to U42. [Ruth, please confirm.]
ruthsindelar said:
It is very difficult to get an IFR clearance into our home base at U42 (or out of it for that matter).

Recently, I filed a 60 nm IFR flightplan from an airport north of the Class B to U42. Later that day (~ 6 hours later), I departed KBMC on time and in VFR conditions and, while airborne, called approach to pick up my filed IFR clearance.
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If that is the case, the conflict with KSLC traffic would have been at the other end othe flight and TRACON would have had to have work out a hole in traffic for her as she as she got closer to U42. If it was as you interpreted it (she had departed U42), then, of course, the controller couldn't issue a clearance until he had some airspace clear for her. But, c'mon, an hour? I can see having to circle around for 5, 10, maybe even 15 minutes. I agree that the controller would need at a good sized hole in traffic to get someone off the ground, but she airborne, and it wouldn't require nearly as big of a break in traffic. In either case, for the controller to say an hour shows that he doesn't want to provide service to aircraft using U42.

I don't know what you mean by "already-cleared IFR traffic". Cleared for the approach? Cleared to KSLC as filed? Within 100 nm of KSLC? Let's see, the controller said an hour. Does that mean he'll get her in after a that is currently 300+ nm away?
 
Each class B is unique... and your situation is SEVERELY complicated by geography. If your goal is to do IFR practice approaches, you may be much better served doing VFR in and out.. and going to do practice approaches elsewhere.. Provo? And whats that field north of Hill AFB?

Call ATC.. find out when their pushes are.. their surge times.. and schedule your times to fall into the slack times... There's got to be a way..
 
Wow..thanks for the healthy discussion here. Very helpful.

A few of the posts asked me to clarify the situation and I can see how my lengthy original post was a bit confusing.

- My filed IFR flight plan was from KBMC to U42. It was a clear IFR day and we only filed to give my student the experience. Of course, what she learned was to be very careful if planning to depart a local airport in IFR conditions if she hoped to get cleared to U42 --- it may be a VERY long wait). I bet this would not have been an issue on an IFR trip from KSGU (St. George in southern Utah) to U42. In our case, we were trying to pick up the clearance from the same TRACON that would work our IFR arrival into U42 and the controller simply did not want to do it. KBMC is about 40 miles north of KSLC and KSLC was landing/departing runways 34L, 34R and 35.

- IFR departures out of U42. This was a separate issue only connected by similarly long wait times and a strong resistance from KSLC TRACON to accomodate IFR departures from U42.

Ron and others - you are correct in that TRACON shares that they have to shut off arrivals into KSLC for me to depart IFR out of or into U42. Seems to me, they should be able to fit me into the que the same as any airplane arriving KSLC on a previously filed IFR flight plan. First come, first serve according to the JO7400.2B reference listed above.

Two followup comments/questions...
- Sounds like a call to AOPA might be a good first step.
- Next a call to KSLC's TRACON. Have any of you gone this route before (calling TRACON). Any suggestions on how to handle the call. My ultimate goal would be to get a group together of GA IFR pilots and controllers and figure out how we can work together to reasonably accomodate IFR traffic into & out of U42. At a minimum, I'd like to know times of the day when TRACON can be reasonably expected to handle such requests.

Thanks again for the great discussion. It has been positive and it has been very helpful.
 
The Detroit Metro B is also sacred airspace (at least according to the Detroit controllers)... I routinely file IFR going South and wanting to pass through the B on the Victor airway - the FAA might as well remove that airway form the charts as only Northwest airliners are allowed to use it... Saginaw activates my filed plan, hands me off to Flint, who toddles me through their airspace, then hands me to Detroit... Detroit acknowledges my call and gives me the pressure setting... I then begin mentally counting... Usually before I can get to 30, I get the call to copy amended clearance, meaning they intend to send me over somewhere near South Bend before letting me turn back... On those few glorious days we have once in a while in the Great Lakes weather machine, I smile gleefully; Advise the controller I am UNABLE to accept an amended clearance, cancel my ifr flight plan, change my squawk to 1200, climb to a vfr altitude and sail right over Detroit Metro whilst listening to the controller snarling that he has uncontrolled traffic at 10,500 "UNVERIFIED", grinding his teeth as he says it...

The cost in gas to climb higher? A few bucks.
The pleasure? Indescribable.

denny-o
 
Ruth, I wonder if the FSDO would be of any help. I don't know as I'm new to this and my only experience with our FSDO in Memphis has been with the FAAST meetings we have almost monthly. In fact our meeting last week was led by the KMEM TRACON, as well as Tower personnel from two other Class D airports within the KMEM Bravo.

I guess I am just extremely fortunate to have these guys where I am living and training, they are great with us.
 
Go over DTW at 8500 and really frustrate em, since the B tops at 8000.
 
ruthsindelar said:
Ron and others - you are correct in that TRACON shares that they have to shut off arrivals into KSLC for me to depart IFR out of or into U42. Seems to me, they should be able to fit me into the que the same as any airplane arriving KSLC on a previously filed IFR flight plan. First come, first serve according to the JO7400.2B reference listed above.
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I agree, but it's a very long queue, and the rule doesn't require them to "fit you in" -- just give you the next spot at the end of the existing queue, which may be several hundred miles long (hence the hour wait). The big limiting factor is that because of the topography and other limitations, they would have to make a very big hole in which to insert you, and having the entire line of SLC inbounds stop and hold for 10 minutes to make space for one arrival at U42 just isn't feasible.
 
Looks like the problem is solved with a new DP when the wind is out of the north.
 
Have you looked into operation Raincheck? Some centers put that on to explain how everything works in the B and how to properly interact with approach/center. We did one a couple years ago at D/FW and it was excellent. Even if you didn't agree with everything, you understood why it was done and got to know a lot of the controllers.

I remember looking at going to Salt Lake for a Beech convention last year and between the B, terrain and restricted areas, options were very limited.

Really makes me appreciate the folks at DFW and Fort Worth Center. They do a great job of working us GA folks in. I flew late last night, so things were slow. The filed route from the Denver area (KBJC) was due south to a short stint on J17, then an arrival into Dallas (Addison). When things have been busy, Denver has kept me low and headed me directly south on the DP to get me out of their airspace. Last night, they let me climb to FL190 pretty quickly and gave me direct Addison about 15 minutes into the flight. FW approach cut the arrival down and brought me in direct but it was after midnight.

Best,

Dave
 
wpierce said:
Ruth, I wonder if the FSDO would be of any help. I don't know as I'm new to this and my only experience with our FSDO in Memphis has been with the FAAST meetings we have almost monthly. In fact our meeting last week was led by the KMEM TRACON, as well as Tower personnel from two other Class D airports within the KMEM Bravo.

I guess I am just extremely fortunate to have these guys where I am living and training, they are great with us.
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FSDO has no control or influence over ATC.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Never dealt with SLC, but a few weeks ago I did go into Deer Valley on the northwest side of Phoenix. Heading into the airport I was routed all the way around the east and south ends of the Bravo before being sent back up north. I about told the controller that he needed to go to New York and learn how to opearte a proper goat rodeo. New York can be annoying, but they handle it a lot better Phoenix did - it wasn't even busy.
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Yep.

After a 10 hour flight I got to see ALL of Phoenix before finally landing at Glendale. And it simply wasn't that busy.

What is it about the Bravos out in the hinterlands that makes them so hard to deal with?
 
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Dr. O said:
The Detroit Metro B is also sacred airspace (at least according to the Detroit controllers)... I routinely file IFR going South and wanting to pass through the B on the Victor airway - the FAA might as well remove that airway form the charts as only Northwest airliners are allowed to use it... Saginaw activates my filed plan, hands me off to Flint, who toddles me through their airspace, then hands me to Detroit... Detroit acknowledges my call and gives me the pressure setting... I then begin mentally counting... Usually before I can get to 30, I get the call to copy amended clearance, meaning they intend to send me over somewhere near South Bend before letting me turn back... On those few glorious days we have once in a while in the Great Lakes weather machine, I smile gleefully; Advise the controller I am UNABLE to accept an amended clearance, cancel my ifr flight plan, change my squawk to 1200, climb to a vfr altitude and sail right over Detroit Metro whilst listening to the controller snarling that he has uncontrolled traffic at 10,500 "UNVERIFIED", grinding his teeth as he says it...

The cost in gas to climb higher? A few bucks.
The pleasure? Indescribable.

denny-o
Click to expand...

I would have done the exact same thing,:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:..

altho I would have climbed to the VFR altitude and then requested flight following just to tick the controller off. :mad2::mad2:
 
The problem of of getting a slot to depart. If it truly is a first come first serve basis, and the wind is out of the south, you will call before the 121 guys requesting their clearance out of SLC. When the wind is out of the north, supposedly you can never get in the system, because some guy over Omaha was in the system before you. Looking at the DP, the issue is they turn you right back into the path of the inbounds. If the DP gets amended and takes you low and northwest , out over the lake, the issue looks like it goes away. It would keep the 1000' spacing needed with the arrivals above you, and once out there, you can go where needed. (Yes, I am aware of the terrain to the NW.)
 
EdFred said:
Looking at the DP, the issue is they turn you right back into the path of the inbounds. If the DP gets amended and takes you low and northwest , out over the lake, the issue looks like it goes away. It would keep the 1000' spacing needed with the arrivals above you, and once out there, you can go where needed. (Yes, I am aware of the terrain to the NW.)
Click to expand...
Have you compared your proposed DP to the TERPS criteria to see if it complies with the obstacle clearance criteria all the way to the MEA?
 
My Salt Lake Sectional Chart is at home, so I haven't laid everything out, could always do what they do at ASE, install a BC LOC for departing the area.

Messing around with skyvector, it looks like it could work, would just be a matter of giving a takeoff clearance vs a clearance void at U42 to jam you in between the arrivals since CELOD and FLLAG are only 1.4nm apart. But depart to CELOD thence SALTA, that's 15nm which a 300'/nm gets you up to the MEA for V32, THENCE STACO...then to wherever you want to go.
 
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EdFred said:
My Salt Lake Sectional Chart is at home, so I haven't laid everything out, could always do what they do at ASE, install a BC LOC for departing the area.
Click to expand...
When you run the numbers and check the route for TERPS compliance (including the MEA issue), let us know. As for installing a LOC just so folks can depart U42, I think you may find the FAA reluctant to fund such a project due to lack of cost justification. ASE is, I believe, a lot busier airport.
 
EdFred said:
My Salt Lake Sectional Chart is at home, so I haven't laid everything out, could always do what they do at ASE, install a BC LOC for departing the area.
Click to expand...
This is Salt Lake: http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.64417227550234,-111.9212351450383&chart=10&zoom=3

And this is Aspen: http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.34171526132379,-107.07243470700423&chart=18&zoom=3

I don't see too many similarities other than the fact that there are mountains around. For the Aspen scenario to be similar to U42 there would need to be a major airport in Carbondale.
 
Everskyward said:
This is Salt Lake: http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.64417227550234,-111.9212351450383&chart=10&zoom=3

And this is Aspen: http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.34171526132379,-107.07243470700423&chart=18&zoom=3

I don't see too many similarities other than the fact that there are mountains around. For the Aspen scenario to be similar to U42 there would need to be a major airport in Carbondale.
Click to expand...

I was talking more about the missed here:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1002/05889LDE.PDF
 
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