Class B altitude question?

MtnMarcus

MtnMarcus

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Today while flying vfr into SLC Class B, approach assigned a route and advised me to remain at or above 6,000 ft. TPA is 5,200 ft. The route took me pretty much right into the left downwind entry to the rwy I was landing on at which point I was handed off to the tower. Still being at 6,000 ft and pretty much in the pattern by the time i was handed off, I had to descend pretty quick to get to TPA and set up for landing. When is it ok to start my descent to TPA, or should I have requested to descend from approach prior to getting handed off? Thx
 
MtnMarcus said:
Today while flying vfr into SLC Class B, approach assigned a route and advised me to remain at or above 6,000 ft. TPA is 5,200 ft. The route took me pretty much right into the left downwind entry to the rwy I was landing on at which point I was handed off to the tower. Still being at 6,000 ft and pretty much in the pattern by the time i was handed off, I had to descend pretty quick to get to TPA and set up for landing. When is it ok to start my descent to TPA, or should I have requested to descend from approach prior to getting handed off? Thx
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When in class B, if the controller doesn't offer sooner, tell them when you need to begin your descent.
 
If you're VFR and you're cleared at or above an altitude, you need to stay at or above that altitude. Maybe their standard practice is for the tower to clear you lower and for some reason the handoff was delayed, maybe they're used to traffic that's comfortable descending faster, or maybe it was just a brain fart on their part. In any case, there's no reason not to ask approach if you can have lower. Either they'll say yes, or they'll be reminded to hand you off to tower, or if there's some reason they're keeping you high, they'll at least know you're getting a little antsy and that if they can't bring you lower soon they might need to do something else with you (like a 360 turning descent).
 
MtnMarcus said:
Today while flying vfr into SLC Class B, approach assigned a route and advised me to remain at or above 6,000 ft. TPA is 5,200 ft. The route took me pretty much right into the left downwind entry to the rwy I was landing on at which point I was handed off to the tower. Still being at 6,000 ft and pretty much in the pattern by the time i was handed off, I had to descend pretty quick to get to TPA and set up for landing. When is it ok to start my descent to TPA, or should I have requested to descend from approach prior to getting handed off? Thx
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Was this the I-15 entry to 17 ?
 
If you're restricted, you're restricted until you get another instruction.

This isn't limited to class B. Fresno is class C and they will keep you over 2500 until departing traffic is out of the way. And there can be a lot of it, between airliner, CalFire, and Air National Guard traffic.

You can ask for a change.
 
Transition across the Las Vegas Class B is normally above 5500MSL when over the top of McCarran, main airport. They need to protect 4500 in case an airliner does a go around.

Approach will step you down to 3500 approaching the North Las Vegas airport, VGT. They have a letter of agreement that aircraft from Class B to Class D come in at 3500, TPA is 3000 and they need to protect that. The pattern on the south side is real close to the Class B wall.

We either get a clearance to maintain at or above 3500 until entering Class D, landing on Rwy 30. Or maintain 3500 until cleared lower by tower, landing Rwy 12.
 
Don't get wrapped around the axle over the TPA as the controllers assigned altitude trumps a TPA. There's no requirement to level off at TPA either. If you're in the downwind 800' above the TPA and tower clears you to land it'd be fine to just let down through the TPA and land.

BTW, what did tower say when you checked in?
 
You have to follow the instructions given by the controller,if you think it's not safe,ask the controller for lower.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you're restricted, you're restricted until you get another instruction.

This isn't limited to class B. Fresno is class C and they will keep you over 2500 until departing traffic is out of the way. And there can be a lot of it, between airliner, CalFire, and Air National Guard traffic.

You can ask for a change.
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Yup, I've had the controllers have me 3000 ft AGL on the downwind to Albuquerque (Class-C), then turn me to the tower when I'm ready to turn base.
("fly downwind at 8500' MSL or above" for a 5310'MSL TDZ)

ok, the descent is steep, but with a 2+ mile long runway, the world isn't going to end. I just turn off at a further taxiway. No problem.
 
MtnMarcus said:
Today while flying vfr into SLC Class B, approach assigned a route and advised me to remain at or above 6,000 ft. TPA is 5,200 ft. The route took me pretty much right into the left downwind entry to the rwy I was landing on at which point I was handed off to the tower. Still being at 6,000 ft and pretty much in the pattern by the time i was handed off, I had to descend pretty quick to get to TPA and set up for landing. When is it ok to start my descent to TPA, or should I have requested to descend from approach prior to getting handed off? Thx
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You shouldn't have to fly over pattern altitude when about to enter the pattern. Simply contact the tower and repeat your landing clearance and request the appropriate descent to enter the pattern.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you're restricted, you're restricted until you get another instruction.

This isn't limited to class B. Fresno is class C and they will keep you over 2500 until departing traffic is out of the way. And there can be a lot of it, between airliner, CalFire, and Air National Guard traffic.

You can ask for a change.
Click to expand...
You from Fresno?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Captain said:
Don't get wrapped around the axle over the TPA as the controllers assigned altitude trumps a TPA. There's no requirement to level off at TPA either. If you're in the downwind 800' above the TPA and tower clears you to land it'd be fine to just let down through the TPA and land.

BTW, what did tower say when you checked in?
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Just to enter and report the left downwind from the position i was already at which was only about a 1/2 mile slight left turn which put me midfield.
 
Like others have said, ask for lower. Going VFR eastbound across the NY Bravo to FRG, they like to slam dunk you so you always plan ahead and ask for lower while also making sure you don't bust FRG's airspace. They usually give you a frequency change around 7 miles out so you better be ready to queue up the mic and talk to tower once you get a frequency change.
 
d5by5 said:
You shouldn't have to fly over pattern altitude when about to enter the pattern. Simply contact the tower and repeat your landing clearance and request the appropriate descent to enter the pattern.
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Can't repeat a landing clearance you haven't received.
 
frfly172 said:
You have to follow the instructions given by the controller,if you think it's not safe,ask the controller for lower.
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ATC doesn't issue instructions, they give clearances. Doesn't matter most of the time. Until it does. Then the distinction becomes important.
 
Captain said:
Don't get wrapped around the axle over the TPA as the controllers assigned altitude trumps a TPA. There's no requirement to level off at TPA either. If you're in the downwind 800' above the TPA and tower clears you to land it'd be fine to just let down through the TPA and land.

BTW, what did tower say when you checked in?
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We've had our tower controllers tell us a clearance to land is not a clearance to descend. :hairraise:

We had a very heated debate over that one at a safety meeting and basically left it that if they don't want us to descend, don't give us a landing clearance.
 
Wow, that is strange!
 
BillTIZ said:
We've had our tower controllers tell us a clearance to land is not a clearance to descend. :hairraise:

We had a very heated debate over that one at a safety meeting and basically left it that if they don't want us to descend, don't give us a landing clearance.
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How can you land without descending? Can ATC change the laws of physics? :confused:

I have taught students that they can descend whenever they want once they get a landing clearance. Should I stop?
 
MAKG1 said:
No, just flew in and out a dozen or so times.
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Darn. Was looking for some locals!

Yeah. Generally departing VFR they restrict me at or below 2000. As soon as they hand me off to departure they generally cancel it. Inbound it is usually at or above 2,500.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
yah00 said:
Darn. Was looking for some locals!

Yeah. Generally departing VFR they restrict me at or below 2000. As soon as they hand me off to departure they generally cancel it. Inbound it is usually at or above 2,500.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Well, airplanes can move! The Bay Area is just over 100 air miles from Fresno.
 
MtnMarcus said:
Today while flying vfr into SLC Class B, approach assigned a route and advised me to remain at or above 6,000 ft. TPA is 5,200 ft. The route took me pretty much right into the left downwind entry to the rwy I was landing on at which point I was handed off to the tower. Still being at 6,000 ft and pretty much in the pattern by the time i was handed off, I had to descend pretty quick to get to TPA and set up for landing. When is it ok to start my descent to TPA, or should I have requested to descend from approach prior to getting handed off? Thx
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Did my training at SLC. Never descend in Bravo unless instructed, or as far as my experience with SLC controllers, [until]* given the clearance to land.

I'm a little confused here. Did you fly downwind over Redwood Road from the south? That is the standard they expect. If they don't say otherwise, maintain your altitude of 6000. At what point did they clear you to land? Usually they will just clear you to land, and if that is the case you can begin your descent and fly downwind further if needed to give you the landing setup. If they ask you to keep it tight then that means another aircraft is on final further out. If you don't feel comfortable with that then tell them and you will end up on a 5 mile downwind probably (been there done that).

Sometimes they will call your base, and in that case just maintain the altitude assigned on downwind until they clear you for landing.

*edited
 
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Palmpilot said:
Then why does 91.123 have sections for both ATC clearances and instructions?
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A bit of hair-splitting semantics on my part; ATC will give you a clearance, often with details (instructions) on how they expect you to execute it.

They aren't instructing you on the operation of the aircraft, and likely (though not always) aren't qualified to do so, anyway.

Hence "Unable" or "Cancelling IFR", in more extreme cases. Mostly, if you want something, (lower or higher, maybe) and they can't accommodate you right away, you work with 'em and are patient.

Sometimes, VFR, east bound over the Chesapeake Bay, they'll ask me to stay below 3K MSL, and in the spirit of cooperation, no problem, happy to do so. . .We help leach other out.

I remember a ground controller offering to give an instructor "taxi instructions" - the response was "What I want from you is a clearance to taxi; I already know how to taxi"

A little rough, but the point he was making for his student was, "you are solely responsible for, and the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft." You don't get to blame the controller because you accepted a clearance that put you in jeopardy.

It doesn't come up much, 'cause the system works pretty well, and most controllers and pilots want to help each other out.

Just something to keep in your tool bag; a mind-set that the final call is yours.
 
There are ATC instructions that are given in situations where no clearance is required or issued, especially when given to VFR aircraft. Examples:

Remain outside bravo airspace.
Fly direct Reid-Hillview Airport.
Cross San Jose Airport midfield at 1,500.
Remain south and west of the Bayshore Freeway.

The Chief Counsel's office has opined that such instructions must be followed in the absence of an emergency. (Of course, one can always negotiate for something else.)
 
BillTIZ said:
We've had our tower controllers tell us a clearance to land is not a clearance to descend. :hairraise:

We had a very heated debate over that one at a safety meeting and basically left it that if they don't want us to descend, don't give us a landing clearance.
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Concur. This sounds like CYA after a controller error. I've never been given a landing clearance without either having any conflicting traffic in sight, or there being no conflicting traffic to worry about. If they want you to stay at altitude because of traffic or some other reason, they should delay giving you the clearance.

Then again, I've never landed at a Class B, so things might be different there.
 
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I would like to hear back from the OP, but I have a feeling there may have been some confusion as to how to proceed once the landing clearance was issued. They bring you in at a given altitude (or sometimes clear you to descend at your discretion) but once that landing clearance comes it's your sky. You do what you need to do to get the plane on the ground. If tower asks you to expedite, then you do so. If you aren't comfortable with that, ask for an extended downwind.
 
Stay at your assigned altitude and query ATC about getting lower. Sometimes they have a reason to keep you there and other times that reason has become no factor but they just haven't yet let you down. If you want lower, just ask and see if it can be accommodated.
 
dmspilot said:
How can you land without descending? Can ATC change the laws of physics? :confused:

I have taught students that they can descend whenever they want once they get a landing clearance. Should I stop?
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Take off KGBD climb 3000 AGL and you'll be in great shape for KPUB

If you can't go to the airport, bring the airport to you! :D
 
luvflyin said:
-Yup-
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Nope. I guess you can, but you won't get it.

GA aircraft fly into KSLC from three directions (N/S/W). Tower coordinates the entries. Approach won't give you jack.
 
woodchucker said:
Nope. I guess you can, but you won't get it.

GA aircraft fly into KSLC from three directions (N/S/W). Tower coordinates the entries. Approach won't give you jack.
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Local knowledge is always the best source. Are they usually that late with the frequency change?
 
woodchucker said:
Did my training at SLC. Never descend in Bravo unless instructed, or as far as my experience with SLC controllers, [until]* given the clearance to land.

I'm a little confused here. Did you fly downwind over Redwood Road from the south? That is the standard they expect. If they don't say otherwise, maintain your altitude of 6000. At what point did they clear you to land? Usually they will just clear you to land, and if that is the case you can begin your descent and fly downwind further if needed to give you the landing setup. If they ask you to keep it tight then that means another aircraft is on final further out. If you don't feel comfortable with that then tell them and you will end up on a 5 mile downwind probably (been there done that).

Sometimes they will call your base, and in that case just maintain the altitude assigned on downwind until they clear you for landing.

*edited
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Trying to remember the specifics. Was following I-15 from the South at 6,000. was handed off to tower abeam the 35 threshold while still over I-15. Contacted tower and was told to report midfield downwind for 17 at which point I made the slight left turn for the midfield...still at 6,000. Shortly after the handoff and left turn I reported midfield entry at which point I was cleared to land and started a pretty rapid decent. My callout at midfield was a little early as I wanted the extra room for the decent. I started my descent when I was cleared to land.

On a separate note, we flew commercially out of here on Sunday returning yesterday (Tuesday) and had to stay an extra night waiting out some of the hardest rain I have seen in this area. Hoping for a window to get out in a few hrs.
 
That hand-off is a bit late. In my experience it's usually around 3-5 miles out (ballpark guessing). KSLC is an ATC training facility, so you may have been the victim of some newbie controllers.

But you did the right thing. Unless they tell you to expedite, there is no need to rush yourself though. Set up your numbers and take your downwind as far as you need to get to your altitude.

Flying in from the west can be even more exciting. They will have you at 5500/6000 flying over the numbers of 16L and sometimes offer an immediate right base to land 17. You can refuse and end up on an extended downwind, or go full flaps and slip immediately.
 
woodchucker said:
That hand-off is a bit late. In my experience it's usually around 3-5 miles out (ballpark guessing). KSLC is an ATC training facility, so you may have been the victim of some newbie controllers.

But you did the right thing. Unless they tell you to expedite, there is no need to rush yourself though. Set up your numbers and take your downwind as far as you need to get to your altitude.

Flying in from the west can be even more exciting. They will have you at 5500/6000 flying over the numbers of 16L and sometimes offer an immediate right base to land 17. You can refuse and end up on an extended downwind, or go full flaps and slip immediately.
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Agreed...

Coming in from the West VFR at KSLC can get REALLY interesting...:eek:
 
I've gotten clearance to land without a clearance to descend, but it's always been explicit.

"Maintain 2,500 until 5 mile final, cleared to land runway 31."
 
Palmpilot said:
There are ATC instructions that are given in situations where no clearance is required or issued, especially when given to VFR aircraft. Examples:

Remain outside bravo airspace.
Fly direct Reid-Hillview Airport.
Cross San Jose Airport midfield at 1,500.
Remain south and west of the Bayshore Freeway.

The Chief Counsel's office has opined that such instructions must be followed in the absence of an emergency. (Of course, one can always negotiate for something else.)
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I'd say remain "clear of bravo" is a reminder, since absent a clearance, you wouldn't (shouldn't) enter it anyway. If you bust it, you won't be sanctioned for not following the controller's "instruction", it'll be for entering bravo without a clearance. Whether he said not to (or not), it's still your mistake.

The last three are just noise, if you are VFR and not in Class B or other ATC controlled airspace. And if you are in his airspace, then you have been granted (and accepted) a clearance. Then sure, you need to heed the instructions.
 
Sundancer said:
I'd say remain "clear of bravo" is a reminder, since absent a clearance, you wouldn't (shouldn't) enter it anyway. If you bust it, you won't be sanctioned for not following the controller's "instruction", it'll be for entering bravo without a clearance. Whether he said not to (or not), it's still your mistake.

The last three are just noise, if you are VFR and not in Class B or other ATC controlled airspace. And if you are in his airspace, then you have been granted (and accepted) a clearance. Then sure, you need to heed the instructions.
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What about "remain clear of Class C?" I've heard that a couple of times when trying to transition Oakland.
 
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