City trying to close FBO. Claims tainted fuel

A reliable source tells me that Noobie and Momtie of NB Herald comments blog are the same person. So I'll go back to the troll theory. Noobie really works at KBAZ.

Like the Mikeinbama said Noobie.

I posted the fuel analysis as promised. Now its your turn.


:hairraise:PUT UP OR SHUT UP.:yikes:

Quit hiding behind the "Criminal Investigation" EXCUSE.

Take a look at the photos on page 6 #135. That is the city fuel farm Before they made repairs required by building inspector. Would you fuel your plane from that fuel DUMP NOOBIE? :yikes:

It was quite a show.:rofl::rofl:
 
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There is absolutely no evidence to suggest there is a single issue with the fuel, or ever has been. In fact - everything I've seen indicates there isn't a problem. The burden of proof lies on the accuser - not the FBO.

Based on the fact that there is no evidence present, and the only evidence available suggests there is absolutely no problem, I would happily fuel up with my family aboard...I suspect Spike would too.

I disagree with you that there isn't any evidence...the documents that Chris has posted clearly do not relate to each other. The partial analysis is so abbreviated it is useless and the C of A doesn't have any documentation tying it to a delivery to the FBO.

I tend to err on the side of caution...a judge looked at evidence we haven't seen (assuming you haven't seen more than Chris posted) and decided there was merit and issued a TRO...to me, that shifted the burden..

I've also been in the fuel business and understand the liability...and don't understand how an FBO could ever get into this position. But, hey, I appreciate that you've stepped out there with your opinion...
 
Noobie, I dont particularly have a dog in this fight. But you just seem like a troll here. If you want to be given any credibility then you need to identify yourself and explain your interest in this debacle. You just seem to be just a bit on the slimey side. I really would consider your opinion if your werent so reluctant to put yourself out there...So ill go ahead and say it.....put up or shut up

Mike,

I don't particularly care what you think and don't much care if you lend any credibility to my questions or not. You didn't offer a salient response to any of the important points in this discussion - but hey, clap louder if you want too...it doesn't change the facts.

And they aren't my facts...they are Chris' facts...I'm just commenting on what he's posted and asked all of us to look at on the blogs and in the news paper.
 
A reliable source tells me that Noobie and Momtie of NB Herald comments blog are the same person. So I'll go back to the troll theory. Noobie really works at KBAZ.

Like the Mikeinbama said Noobie.

I posted the fuel analysis as promised. Now its your turn.


:hairraise:PUT UP OR SHUT UP.:yikes:

Quit hiding behind the "Criminal Investigation" EXCUSE.

Take a look at the photos on page 6 #135. That is the city fuel farm Before they made repairs required by building inspector. Would you fuel your plane from that fuel DUMP NOOBIE? :yikes:

It was quite a show.:rofl::rofl:

Chris - where is the rest of your D910 analysis? I assume you've done research by now and know that what you posted doesn't prove that you guys got good gas....

I told you where I work...I'm not going to tell you who I am...and you're asking it over and over doesn't change the fact that you don't have any answers.

It doesn't seem to me that you are interested in improving GA as much as doggin New Braunfels...would love to see you put up some REAL evidence...
 
Chris - where is the rest of your D910 analysis? I assume you've done research by now and know that what you posted doesn't prove that you guys got good gas....

I told you where I work...I'm not going to tell you who I am...and you're asking it over and over doesn't change the fact that you don't have any answers.

It doesn't seem to me that you are interested in improving GA as much as doggin New Braunfels...would love to see you put up some REAL evidence...

I think the key still comes to this: The accuser needs evidence. The accuser has none (or at least, refuses to show theirs). Why is the FBO still unable to sell fuel if no evidence has been shown?

Let's say Chris has absolutely 0 evidence. Is it the FBO's responsibility to prove their innocence in this case, or is it the City's responsibility to prove their guilt?
 
Also, I'm rather curious, the city used public money to test the FBO's fuel. Does the city also spend the same money testing their own fuel?

Surely they must have a policy which creates an equal playing field.

If the city want's to test. That's fine. But the policy should be consistent and fair and they should have historic records indicating just that.
 
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Well Noobie I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't provide the paper you ask for and you can't provide the paper I ask for. We are both 3rd partys in this fuel fued. However, NB Aero did immidiately provide analysis showing no contamination to their customers when the city made its allegations.

If you really work at ABIA that is.:confused:


Put up or shut up" Noobie." :D
 
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I thought trolling was a violation of POA rules.

edit: I'm referencing noobie
 
It is interesting to see the way a certain troll, I mean poster, attempts to hijack the thread to avoid the obvious. I'm not claiming the poster in question is a stooge for the city attorney, or anything like that but the question remains, why these constant attempts to turn the direction away from the city's inability to show a SINGLE fact that supports their dereliction of duty and fraudulent waste of taxpayer dollars, to prosecute a dubious (at best) case against a fine organization.
Who is getting paid off in the end, here? Someone is getting money from some part of this debacle and I suspect the poster in question is part of the conspiracy.
 
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General question about Texas courts.

If as Noobie alleges the evidence of fuel contamination has been seen by the judge that issued the TRO. Then is not that evidence part of the public record and can be viewed by anyone requesting that info?

If that is the case, then can the info simply be requested? Or is the information somehow sealed?
 
As a young lawyer, I had a mentor / boss who taught me an interesting lesson.

He told me, "Spike, when you're in court, if you've got the law on your side, argue the law; if you've got good facts, argue the facts; if you've got neither, pound like hell on the table!" His advice has proven, over the years, to be very good.

Applying that same reasoning to our current discussion, it is fairly obvious that there are some who are "pounding the table" here- or appear to be.

Noobie, I appreciate what you say about the records to trace the fuel back to the dinosaur whose timely demise made its existence possible, and ask: "Who cares?" The contention was that the fuel was unsafe, and the chemical analysis shows that it was not.

Now I, in my practice, have had many occasions when I hoped for an expert's report to come back and cast harsh light on the quality of a piece of work - and when the expert's analysis showed the work was sound, we had to retrench and find some other avenue to pursue (or, of course, we resolved the dispute, having found that the essential premise of our dispute, that the work was defectively-done, was false. In most such instances, however, the primary goal was a businesslike resolution of differences between two business entities.

In this instance, however, it strongly appears that the city's representatives have broadly different goals; they have already had their strong-armed effort to get rid of NBA rebuffed once, after a long and contentious court battle, the result of which was a binding judgment compelling them to renew the lease. That, my friends, is egg on your face, if you are among the cadre of public officials whose decisions led to the battle and the litigation in the first place.

So they thought about it, and decided to pursue a strategy of going after NBA on completely different grounds - "We'll say they're a public hazard!" And we find ourselves where we are.

Public offices and the power attendant thereto are heady stuff - many and many are the instances of stunning corruption, pursued in order to maintain or enhance that same corrupt official's power and privileges of office. If the battle to do so is costly, well, it's not their money anyway.

Dangerous fuel?

If the City truly believed that the fuel NBA had dispensed was dangerous (and this one is easy - they have presumably performed testing to determine the compliance of the fuel with the ASTM specs which define the fuel's required characteristics), the records confirming it would not be cloaked in darkness, they would be published for all to see, shining light on the evil deeds!

One last question we might ask ourselves: If the test results obtained by the City showed that unsafe or contaminated fuel had been dispensed, and if, as a result of that bad gas, an aircraft crashed or an engine was destroyed, would the city have liability for failure to warn. The answer, dear friends, is most assuredly, "Yes."

The gas is fine. The City hoped it would be otherwise, but their hopes were in vain. They are now scrambling to justify their ham-fisted efforts to avoid complying with the judgment of the District Court and renewing NBA's lease, and hoping against hope that they can get away from this tiger whose tail they have grasped, alive.

They are pounding the table.

And, from what I can tell, from what they are hiding, they will fail.
 
If the City truly believed that the fuel NBA had dispensed was dangerous (and this one is easy - they have presumably performed testing to determine the compliance of the fuel with the ASTM specs which define the fuel's required characteristics), the records confirming it would not be cloaked in darkness, they would be published for all to see, shining light on the evil deeds!
I have been wondering for a long time if the city had ever actually done testing. Just a hunch that they had not and hence the secrecy. Seeing your choice of the word 'presumably' I wonder if you are thinking the same thing too?
 
Okay, so let me see if I understand things so far. Either NB Aero was selling bad gas, the city caught them and is now preparing the appropriate legal sanctions against them, or the city faked the test results (or never had them done) and is playing hardball with its competition to run them out of business.

As evidence for the former, we have the city's word.

As evidence for the latter, we have clear motive, exonerating (though possibly incomplete?) fuel test results, and a rather suspicious reluctance on the part of the city to abide by Texas' Public Information Act. Oh, and, I guess, the presumption of innocence.

What did I miss?
 
ScottM,

The city did indeed do the testing. The city also attempted to block my TPIA request for the invoice for the tests. The TX AG ordered the release. The cost was $5,400.

I agree, If the city really had evidence they, city manager, fire marshal, city attorney, would be shouting from the rooftops. Instead they have been engaged in a media campaign announcing "Felony Criminal charges MAY be pending".

They have since changed their story several times from cross contaminated by a heavier product to "the City Belives NB Aero was selling a blended racing fuel to putting unbranded fuel in a Texaco truck, but in their legal documents (TPIA letters to AG) they still mention cross contamination.

They are grabbing at straws in an attempt to save face.

In other words THEY LIED AND GOT CAUGHT

Now they are attempting to starve NB Aero to force them out of business.
 
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If malfeasance can be proven would any government officials be subject to prosecution? How about under RICO?
 
I've claimed RICO since this began. It fits perfectly. Hindered interstste commerce by threat and intimidation.... I believe thats why the city has doubled down. Rico damages $$$$ penalty = damages X3. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That got their attention.

Remember the NB Aero contract allows it to sell its own fuel. Not purchase from city. City wants and has put in airport rules they have chosen to become Proprietary Exclusive provider of fuel..(August 2010 council minutes)... You can sell fuel but you gotta get it from them.......... Motive for city actions?....Yes.
 
I have doubts that the AG would be impartial in this matter so a civil lawsuit would probably have a better chance of success. Unfortunately, this would punish the taxpayers and not any corrupt government official.
 
Okay, so let me see if I understand things so far. Either NB Aero was selling bad gas, the city caught them and is now preparing the appropriate legal sanctions against them, or the city faked the test results (or never had them done) and is playing hardball with its competition to run them out of business.

As evidence for the former, we have the city's word.

As evidence for the latter, we have clear motive, exonerating (though possibly incomplete?) fuel test results, and a rather suspicious reluctance on the part of the city to abide by Texas' Public Information Act. Oh, and, I guess, the presumption of innocence.

What did I miss?
You didn't include the city listing itself as sole distributor of avfuel. This is documented by the city and the TDOT and the FAA. And this after the city publicly stated they did not wish to occupy that position. Review the NB-Hazard newspaper and city minutes.
 
ScottM,

The city did indeed do the testing. The city also attempted to block my TPIA request for the invoice for the tests. The TX AG ordered the release. The cost was $5,400.

I agree, If the city really had evidence they, city manager, fire marshal, city attorney, would be shouting from the rooftops. Instead they have been engaged in a media campaign announcing "Felony Criminal charges MAY be pending".

They have since changed their story several times from cross contaminated by a heavier product to "the City Belives NB Aero was selling a blended racing fuel to putting unbranded fuel in a Texaco truck, but in their legal documents (TPIA letters to AG) they still mention cross contamination.

They are grabbing at straws in an attempt to save face.

In other words THEY LIED AND GOT CAUGHT

Now they are attempting to starve NB Aero to force them out of business.
It sure does appear that way.

I still do not understand how the city is not releasing the test results. If the AG said to do it and according to Noobie the TRO judge has seen them, why the secrecy?

Sure does seem like they are hiding something.
 
I still do not understand how the city is not releasing the test results.
My understanding is the city has referred to an open criminal investigation as reason to withhold that information...to claim exemption to the TX FOIA thingy
 
My understanding is the city has referred to an open criminal investigation as reason to withhold that information...to claim exemption to the TX FOIA thingy
This can't last forever. They probably think the entire controversy will eventually die out. How long can this excuse work?
 
This can't last forever. They probably think the entire controversy will eventually die out. How long can this excuse work?
How long can NB Aero hang on? There is one answer.

Then, what are the odds a depleted private enterprise will mount yet another protracted legal battle to be made whole?

The one thing I respect about lawyers is they play hardball right out of the gate. Little to none pussyfooting around.
 
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You didn't include the city listing itself as sole distributor of avfuel. This is documented by the city and the TDOT and the FAA. And this after the city publicly stated they did not wish to occupy that position. Review the NB-Hazard newspaper and city minutes.

Oh, right, thanks. Well, add that to the bit about clear motive.

By the way, what standard of proof would the city have been held to to get the temporary restraining order?
 
Oh, right, thanks. Well, add that to the bit about clear motive.

By the way, what standard of proof would the city have been held to to get the temporary restraining order?
Young man, I don't like your tone.:D

I figured I would be a bit more specific than the nebulous-sounding "clear motive". The mud slinging here gets kinda confusing.

Hey, I figured I would join the dogpile. Count me in the "put up or shut up" crowd.
 
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Oh, right, thanks. Well, add that to the bit about clear motive.

By the way, what standard of proof would the city have been held to to get the temporary restraining order?

Proof? Proof?? We don't need no stinking proof. We're the city and wasting YOUR dollars getting our way at any cost.

This is as much about ego as it is about power and corruption. It's time to fire and indict the Mayor, City Manager, Airport Manager, Fire Marshall and everyone else that has contributed to the cover up.
 
Proof? Proof?? We don't need no stinking proof. We're the city and wasting YOUR dollars getting our way at any cost.

This is as much about ego as it is about power and corruption. It's time to fire and indict the Mayor, City Manager, Airport Manager, Fire Marshall and everyone else that has contributed to the cover up.
Random 'shootings' present the distinct probability of unintended hits to innocent bystander and failure to get all the dirty perps.

IOW, how you gonna' ensure you get even the lowest contributor?

BTW: I am quite familiar with the Good Ol Boy networks of small towns. The county Grand Jury may not be free of association.
 
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Proof? Proof?? We don't need no stinking proof. We're the city and wasting YOUR dollars getting our way at any cost.

This is as much about ego as it is about power and corruption. It's time to fire and indict the Mayor, City Manager, Airport Manager, Fire Marshall and everyone else that has contributed to the cover up.

I just want to know what the city would have had to show the judge to get the restraining order.

Young man, I don't like your tone.:D

:D
 
I just want to know what the city would have had to show the judge to get the restraining order.
That is what I asked a while ago. Noobie alleges that it is the evidence of the fuel contamination. If that information was shown in court then why would it not be public information?
 
Proof? Proof?? We don't need no stinking proof. We're the city and wasting YOUR dollars getting our way at any cost.

This is as much about ego as it is about power and corruption. It's time to fire and indict the Mayor, City Manager, Airport Manager, Fire Marshall and everyone else that has contributed to the cover up.

Wow. Sounds like you need to move there.
 
This is getting weird.

What's the current status? Is the FBO selling fuel or not? It was mentioned earlier that the TRO was lifted/vacated (in April, maybe?). If so, why isn't fuel being sold? Is some kind of permit being withheld? If so, why? Is it the city that's withholding it? If so, is there a valid reason for withholding it? If not, while I can't speak to Texas law, I'm have absolutely no doubt that there is some way to appeal the decision to withhold it.

I apologize if this has been discussed before.
 
Does it stand to reason that the proof resides outside the state of TX, ie, the feds?

Does the FAA or any federal agency have jurisdiction over FBO products and services?
 
What makes you so angry and acidic?
Do you steal cheat on your wife?

Honestly, how is he to answer your question?

Allow me to rephrase your question and answer for him: Why does it seem you are resentful whenever you perceive an attack on the federal govt?

Because a slight against my employer is a slight against me.:idea:
 
Because a slight against my employer is a slight against me.:idea:

Do me a favor and stop helping me ;) Oops, I'll stop winking :)

Actually I was asking if your question was rhetorical because if you think about it a typical FBO has to deal with the feds in a number of ways. Repair station? Mechanic certifications and FAA paperwork for repairs? Maybe the EPA for fuel storage and so forth? The IRS of course, too.
 
What makes you so angry and acidic?

I might ask you the same after reading that post. Have you ever been there? Have a relative who lives there, perhaps? Or are you captain crusader, enemy of small town political machines everywhere? At least you have the correct political subdivision now, I'll give you that :)
 
I might ask you the same after reading that post. Have you ever been there? Have a relative who lives there, perhaps? Or are you captain crusader, enemy of small town political machines everywhere? At least you have the correct political subdivision now, I'll give you that :)

Let em rephrase my earlier post. Why does my opinion about the New Braunfels thing cause you to react with such silly, anger? Do you have some personal gain from this unfortunate and ugly city political machine? Do you think my opinion risks the future of that under the table income? Do you support dishonest, local political machines and fear for your livelihood should people take action to cause them to be endangered? Do you hate anyone who disagrees with your personal agenda? Are you crusading on behalf of corrupt machine politics? Do you think I care what you think about my opinion? Do you think I should care what you think? Are your narrow minded, angry opinions so important that everyone should care?
 
That is what I asked a while ago. Noobie alleges that it is the evidence of the fuel contamination. If that information was shown in court then why would it not be public information?

Scott, that had me wondering as well as if this were in PA the defense ( NB Aero in this case) would get to see the evidence against them at the TRO or injunction hearing.

Someone, I think it was David said the TRO had been lifted if this is the case then my "guess" is and its just a guess is that the TRO was issued on someone saying they saw something ie an employee of the city saying NB put Orange Juice in the fuel tank ( exaggeration but you get my drift) In order to sustain the TRO or get a permanent injunction the City would then have to show fuel results or I suppose they could just abandon the TRO and proceed on another angle. Many places require a bond be filed before a TRO is issued, Not sure about TX or whether that includes municipalities.

I have to believe that as loud as Chris is screaming NBs attorneys have to be screaming 10X as loud.

I'm curious as to who is leading the alleged criminal investigation. I'd suspect is the New Braunfels PD. The PD should operate independently from the city gov't in conducting these investigations and if someone can show they are dragging their feet to help the city's position then all I can say is wow at some point the poop will really hit the fan.

Until some Court says to the city tookis afen tish ( yiddish for put your arse on the table ) meaning show us what you got. There is going to be a lot of speculation and suspicion. This is truly like a soap opera. Folks are just waiting for the next episode. We shall see.
 
This is as much about ego as it is about power and corruption. It's time to fire and indict the Mayor, City Manager, Airport Manager, Fire Marshall and everyone else that has contributed to the cover up.

Oh, once the cookie starts to crumble further, they'll have a little closed door meeting, decide who's demons are the biggest, and one of them will be "elected" scapegoat. You'll never get to all of them at the same time.
 
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