CitiBank to customers - we gave you a card, USE IT OR ELSE

[Trapper John]

I look at credit like I look at firearms: powerful tools that, when used responsibly and in an educated manner, make for an enjoyable, safe, and rewarding life experience.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Good analogy. But you have to look at the anti-credit evangelists like you do militant ex-smokers...


Trapper John

 

[Everskyward]

But you have to look at the anti-credit evangelists like you do militant ex-smokers...

No kidding.

 

[EppyGA]

Well, for hte 10k people, I hope they had the income to justify it in the first place.

What we do is figure out our planned costs for a month for some things, and the year for others. We put allocations aside every payday into each category and keep that in savings. When we travel, we have cash in the vacation fund for the trip - so we move it into checking and we go traveling.

It isn't HARD stuff to figure out. It's just hard to develop the kind of discipline to DO it - at first.

After a while, however, it becomes second nature.

Pretty much the same way my wife and I handle it. Works out well for us.

 

[Greebo]

Nobody is saying you can't use the cards - you can play with all the snakes you want. The facts are out there if you care to check them - the credit card companies are in trouble, and previous "good" customers are now paying the price - through minimum usage requirements, annual fees, and the like. Here's hoping none of these problems hit you guys.

I do find it amusing that the response to those of us who prefer not to use credit's arguments, once all the reasonable questions have been addressed, is to compare us to recovering addicts. If you're out of arguments - name calling just makes you look like a sore loser.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Or maybe I'm just an idiot that doesn't know what I'm doing though I appear to have been doing it very successfully for a long time now.

Yep, that's the way to do it.

Now, how would you handle this situation, as a business? We're dealing with this as I type this:

1. A guest uses "Priceline.com" to make reservations for three suites for a home-football game weekend (this weekend), to the tune of over $900.00. He holds them with his Mastercard.

2. Our hotel has a 7 day cancellation policy, and a 2-night minimum for all special event weekends. (This is pretty universal throughout the area -- Big Ten home games are the hot ticket item.) That policy is on our website, and we explicitly tell guests about this policy when they book with us.

However, I have NO idea if "Priceline" told him that. We have ZERO control over what Priceline does.

3. The guest didn't show up yesterday (Friday). Saturday morning we charged his card $900.00.

4. Priceline supplies us with just two items of information on their reservations -- the guest's name, and his credit card number. They tell us this via email. Beyond that, we have no contact information whatsoever, so we can't call the guest to see what happened, or if they are still coming.

5. Priceline's phone mail system requires that you type in their confirmation number in order to reach a real person. We don't know the guest's confirmation number. There is therefore no way to reach a human being at Priceline.

6. We have sent Priceline an email, explaining to them that they are going to have one HUGELY p**sed-off customer if they don't either (a) contact their customer (and have him contact us), or (b) contact us with the guest's contact information. Their website says "We try to answer all emails within 3 hours". It's been nearly six hours -- no response.

So, how would you guys like to be THAT customer? How would you like to be me? ALL of this is due to an over-reliance on credit cards, and the unscrupulous practices of too many on-line booking agencies. And, in the end, I guarantee you I'm going to be in a fight, and I WILL lose, whether I win the money dispute or not.

Meanwhile, the suites sit empty, and I don't know what to do. I've got people calling who want the suites, but I have no idea if this group is still coming.

 

[Skip Miller]

Meanwhile, the suites sit empty, and I don't know what to do. I've got people calling who want the suites, but I have no idea if this group is still coming.

Amend your written policies to give you the right to cancel the reservation at a certain time (midnight?) of the first day of the reservation unless you receive a phone call or fax. Also make it your policy that if you are able to re-rent the suite for the rest of the original reservation, the orginal guest gets his money back, on the per-diem daily rate.

In other words, if the guest is a no show and you can re-rent, he gets hit with a one day cancellation. If you can't re-rent, he gets hit with the whole bill.

-Skip

 

[John Baker]

Myself, after talking to many many people about charge cards, I have concluded that I am an idiot with them. When I had them, I always vowed to pay the entire balance, every month, sooner or later though, some item that I was convinced I could not live without, would magically appear before me. I would mentally justilie to myself, that a few easy monthly payments would be no big deal.

One day, I received in the mail, a valid credit card with a limit of one hundred thousand dollars. The first thing that came to mind was Holy Sh*t, how can this be?

At the time I had five charge cards with a total balance due on all of them of around six thousand dollars. I envisioned just how much hot water I could get myself into with such a card, my being such an idiot with credit cards and all.

I decided to pay them all off, close all the accounts, and shred them, which I did. I got a couple of debit cards and always seem to have more cash than I ever did with plastic.

I do know this for a fact, that I am the only person in the entire country that was stupid enough to carry a charge card balance. I have never, ever, run into anyone, who did not claim to pay their full balance off every month. Nobody has ever paid interest on a credit card but me.

John

 

[Greebo]

John, since the average US citizen carries $9,000 in credit card debt, you must have a hell of a LOT of credit card balance...

 

[fgcason]

Amend your written policies to give you the right to cancel the reservation at a certain time (midnight?) of the first day of the reservation unless you receive a phone call or fax. Also make it your policy that if you are able to re-rent the suite for the rest of the original reservation, the orginal guest gets his money back, on the per-diem daily rate.

In other words, if the guest is a no show and you can re-rent, he gets hit with a one day cancellation. If you can't re-rent, he gets hit with the whole bill.

-Skip

That would pretty much be my solution.

In the meantime, the guy contracted you for a room and didn't show. That's not much different than buying a hamburger, tossing it in the dumpster then expecting the hamburger stand to refund the money since they didn't eat the thing.

For the customer, it's self inflicted. If he can't afford the $900 to start with, that's not anyone's fault except his.

If the individual called me past the cancellation period and we had a talk, I might work with him depending on a lot of unknown variables however that would be a one off situation and completely at my discretion. Maybe take the money since that was the contracted rules from the start. Maybe the room wasn't going to be rented anyway and give a credit for another time. Maybe half rate. Maybe just let him off the hook entirely. There's no penalty for him asking or telling his side of the side of the story (car crash 100 miles out maybe) however he shouldn't initiate the call and be expecting anything more than sympathy and a full bill.

As for the third party reservation system, I don't know how those do business. The kind of stuff I do, it's all me doing business directly with the customer. I'd want the 3rd party to make certain the end customer would get the rules up front and that would be in the contract with them. If the customer screws up, he's out the money. If the 3rd party group didn't supply the information or screws up, ideally I would get my money, the customer would be let completely off the hook and the 3rd party operation would be left holding the bag.

 

[jesse]

I am in the same boat as you. Company card is Amex, businesses that don't take Amex get on my lists of places to not go back to.

Me too -- if they don't take Amex -- it's the last time I go there.

 

[ScottM]

Meanwhile, the suites sit empty, and I don't know what to do. I've got people calling who want the suites, but I have no idea if this group is still coming.

Am I missing something here? You got the $900 for the suite. If it sits empty that is just less maid service you have to pay for. You would have made $900 if he had shown up, right? Was that $900 just the single night for the suites? If so after that night is up and you can rebook the suites I say go for it. He negated his reservation. That is pretty standard throughout the hotel industry. I have been caught by that a couple of times when international flights got messed up and I had no way to cancel. I ended up paying for two nights, one where I booked and one where I stayed.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Amend your written policies to give you the right to cancel the reservation at a certain time (midnight?) of the first day of the reservation unless you receive a phone call or fax. Also make it your policy that if you are able to re-rent the suite for the rest of the original reservation, the orginal guest gets his money back, on the per-diem daily rate.

In other words, if the guest is a no show and you can re-rent, he gets hit with a one day cancellation. If you can't re-rent, he gets hit with the whole bill.

-Skip

Okay, fine -- but what to do about Priceline? THEY don't have to tell the guest ANYTHING about my "policies".

On-line reservation places like Priceline represent a quasi-shady, crappy system. Most of the time this system works fine, but when it fails, it does so spectacularly. I know *I* sure as hell would not want to pay $900 for three suites that I didn't use -- but I have absolutely no other choice right now than to charge the guy the full amount, turn dozens of potential guests away -- and hope like hell the guy shows up to use his suites.

He won't, of course, and the events that will follow are absolutely predictable:

1. The guest will get his credit card bill in the mail between 1 and 30 days from now, and will dispute the charge with his credit card company, claiming that he "cancelled" the reservations.

2. We will then ask him to produce the "cancellation code" that we issue to every person who cancels a guaranteed reservation. (That's their "Get out of jail free" card that -- once told to us -- will get them off the hook by proving that they cancelled outside of our cancellation period.)

3. He won't *have* that number, of course, and will throw a holy sh*t-fit about what "jerks" we are, and how he's going to sue us, etc.

4. He will then go on-line to any of a dozen "review" websites and make up all sorts of fake "reviews", describing "blood on the sheets" and "cockroaches in the coffee maker".

5. I will lose hundreds of dollars in future bookings, because all it takes is the slightest hint of impropriety to make a now very-fickle consumer move on to the next lodging choice.

6. Priceline will sit back and wash their hands of the entire affair.

I know all of this is going to happen, beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I've been here before -- and I am absolutely powerless to prevent or influence it.

Unless, of course, I'm willing to lose nearly 1 AMU because of someone else's stupidity...

 

[ScottM]

I am absolutely powerless to prevent or influence it.

Would it be worth just dropping priceline? Sounds like the hassle factor may be higher than that amount of business it brings in.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Would it be worth just dropping priceline? Sounds like the hassle factor may be higher than that amount of business it brings in.

Sadly, it wouldn't matter -- they're all the same. Travelocity, Expedia, Hotels.com -- NONE of them give us customer info, due to the fear that we will call the guest, offer them a cheaper rate (but still higher than what we would get if they booked on-line), and cancel the booking.

BTW: Hotels don't deal with each on-line booking company individually -- we all use a "clearing house". In our case, we use "TravelClick", owned by a company named "iHotelier". They interface with the myriad of on-line booking companies, and send us the reservations (for a fee, of course) in a nice, neat, email.

Like I say, the system works well when you're dealing with honest, intelligent, scrupulous people. It can fail spectacularly when the people involved are not as described, and there is very little we can do to change it.

 

[John Baker]

John, since the average US citizen carries $9,000 in credit card debt, you must have a hell of a LOT of credit card balance...

$9,000 average card balance??? That has to be folklore. I have never even heard of somebody's cousin's friend that carried a balance on their charge cards. Have you ever met or heard of anyone, or one of your friends might know of anyone, who actually carries a balance?

Everyone I know or they know, ALWAYS pays their entire balance every month. Nobody EVER pays interest. Just ask them.

I swear, they all claim to pay their balances in full, every month. I doubt if there is one person on this board who has ever carried a charge card balance besides myself.

John

 

[John Baker]

Okay, fine -- but what to do about Priceline? THEY don't have to tell the guest ANYTHING about my "policies".

On-line reservation places like Priceline represent a quasi-shady, crappy system. Most of the time this system works fine, but when it fails, it does so spectacularly. I know *I* sure as hell would not want to pay $900 for three suites that I didn't use -- but I have absolutely no other choice right now than to charge the guy the full amount, turn dozens of potential guests away -- and hope like hell the guy shows up to use his suites.

He won't, of course, and the events that will follow are absolutely predictable:

1. The guest will get his credit card bill in the mail between 1 and 30 days from now, and will dispute the charge with his credit card company, claiming that he "cancelled" the reservations.

2. We will then ask him to produce the "cancellation code" that we issue to every person who cancels a guaranteed reservation. (That's their "Get out of jail free" card that -- once told to us -- will get them off the hook by proving that they cancelled outside of our cancellation period.)

3. He won't *have* that number, of course, and will throw a holy sh*t-fit about what "jerks" we are, and how he's going to sue us, etc.

4. He will then go on-line to any of a dozen "review" websites and make up all sorts of fake "reviews", describing "blood on the sheets" and "cockroaches in the coffee maker".

5. I will lose hundreds of dollars in future bookings, because all it takes is the slightest hint of impropriety to make a now very-fickle consumer move on to the next lodging choice.

6. Priceline will sit back and wash their hands of the entire affair.

I know all of this is going to happen, beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I've been here before -- and I am absolutely powerless to prevent or influence it.

Unless, of course, I'm willing to lose nearly 1 AMU because of someone else's stupidity...

Jay, as a small busiess owner, you are shafted, coming or going. I have found it is just better to eat it than go through with trying to collecte, and all the bad stuff that goes along with it. In these times, we can not afford to anger anyone, even if we go without eating for a day or so.

Then there are simply the genuine PIA customers that you wish never were. It sucks.

John

 

[Trapper John]

Okay, fine -- but what to do about Priceline? THEY don't have to tell the guest ANYTHING about my "policies".

On-line reservation places like Priceline represent a quasi-shady, crappy system. Most of the time this system works fine, but when it fails, it does so spectacularly. I know *I* sure as hell would not want to pay $900 for three suites that I didn't use -- but I have absolutely no other choice right now than to charge the guy the full amount, turn dozens of potential guests away -- and hope like hell the guy shows up to use his suites.

He won't, of course, and the events that will follow are absolutely predictable:

1. The guest will get his credit card bill in the mail between 1 and 30 days from now, and will dispute the charge with his credit card company, claiming that he "cancelled" the reservations.

2. We will then ask him to produce the "cancellation code" that we issue to every person who cancels a guaranteed reservation. (That's their "Get out of jail free" card that -- once told to us -- will get them off the hook by proving that they cancelled outside of our cancellation period.)

3. He won't *have* that number, of course, and will throw a holy sh*t-fit about what "jerks" we are, and how he's going to sue us, etc.

4. He will then go on-line to any of a dozen "review" websites and make up all sorts of fake "reviews", describing "blood on the sheets" and "cockroaches in the coffee maker".

5. I will lose hundreds of dollars in future bookings, because all it takes is the slightest hint of impropriety to make a now very-fickle consumer move on to the next lodging choice.

6. Priceline will sit back and wash their hands of the entire affair.

I know all of this is going to happen, beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I've been here before -- and I am absolutely powerless to prevent or influence it.

Unless, of course, I'm willing to lose nearly 1 AMU because of someone else's stupidity...

I'm having a hard time understanding what makes your situation unlike the hospitality business in general. If I go to pretty much any major hotel/motel chain's site, they explain clearly what the cancellation policy is, I agree to it and book the room. If I go to Priceline, I have to agree to a rate at an unknown location, which I personally won't do, because I know I'm not going to get something for nothing. But if I were to agree to Priceline's terms, as far as I know, I'm stuck if I buy a room night.

Possibly your situation is unique because you are an independent...and maybe as Scott said you should drop your affiliation with Priceline if it causes that many problems.


Trapper John

 

[alaskaflyer]

If it's done sensibly and rationally, credit card = cash.
Pay off the credit cards in full each month.
Put enough funds in your bank account to pay the full amount off each month before using the card. Inadequate or no funds in the bank account = unusable card.
Treat the card as unlosable cash ONLY.
Then expect credit card companies to cancel you every so often and call you a deadbeat because you won't pay their criminal sky high interest rates.

Or maybe I'm just an idiot that doesn't know what I'm doing though I appear to have been doing it very successfully for a long time now.

That's moi. Plus, while doing it, my wife and I have earned enough miles for two or three free tickets a year, not counting the two companion fare coupons too. I have a debit card, and I use it occasionally (usually when I need some cash back at the till), but we try to put everything we can on the charge cards for points. Yes, we pay an annual fee for the privilege, but I think we still come out WAY ahead. Amex jacked my rate to 13.5 the other day. Could care less, I never have to pay it

 

[fgcason]

Amex jacked my rate to 13.5 the other day. Could care less, I never have to pay it

13.5 is nothing.
Because I was such a pain to them by not giving them money over the years, they kept jacking my rates every year. Pay on time, never late, always in full, never get into a financial mess, loans always paid off early. The reward they decided I deserved went from 8 or 10% early on to 31% and 34% last I checked. It's hilarious. They think astronomical rates will encourage me to hand them cash. 34% of zero is still zero last I checked.
They're now resorting to making the due date on weekends and little known holidays and they don't accept payments on those days. One card caught me on that trick just once by cutting off the pay date the day previous to some unknown holiday I never heard of before. It took 4 months to pay off the interest charges on a charge of around $20 because of the fee charging nonsense process they use. I dumped their card the minute they sent me the $0 due verification I demanded from them. I'm now onto them like a terrier on a cat.

 

[Greebo]

$9,000 average card balance??? That has to be folklore. I have never even heard of somebody's cousin's friend that carried a balance on their charge cards. Have you ever met or heard of anyone, or one of your friends might know of anyone, who actually carries a balance?

Everyone I know or they know, ALWAYS pays their entire balance every month. Nobody EVER pays interest. Just ask them.

I swear, they all claim to pay their balances in full, every month. I doubt if there is one person on this board who has ever carried a charge card balance besides myself.

John

This is a year old...

# Average credit card debt per household -- regardless of whether they have a credit card or not -- was $8,329 at the end of 2008. (Source: Nilson Report, April 2009)

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-c...ustry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

The 9k number I heard may have been rounded up but its still ridiculous.

But if it's any consolation, John, until 2006, I carried around 15k myself.

 

[50cool50]

Never mind credit card accounts, imagine how you would feel if you had your savings in an account and it was disapearing over the months!!!!!
i had an offshore 'gold' account with citibank. It left me bankrupt. I had all my savings in the account and they hit me with extorniate fees and strange account activity. They told me they were managing my money for me to gain better interest and they made complete mess off my finances. They lost tens of thousands of U.S.Dollars worth
I.M.H.O. I definately would NOT recommend citi bank. I have heard many simillar stories from so many people who have lost money putting they're savings with citibank.
can anyone recommend another good bank to put my savings with? i have heard HSBC has a good saing account/ Has anyone had theyre savings with HSBC?
thanks everyone for the replies