Cirrus v. Bonanza

peppy said:
Here are my thoughts on used Cirrus aircraft vs.BE35 (And mine when I disagree or have something to add):

1) I would take an older SR22 over a newer SR20. The extra power is transformational. Speed is the smallest difference. Climb and high altitude performance differences are huge. I love cruising at 12K-17K on long trips.



2) On the SR22, there are major differences between serial number ranges and not just by version number. The G2 is very different from the G1 but even then there are difference in the G2 such as when the ventilation got redone or ALT1 went from 60A to 100A or instrumentation going from SIU to DAU. Early G1 aircraft are prone to instrument wiring issues. May G1 aircraft have had the wiring issues fixed.

3) Depreciation needs to be considered in context. A brand new fully loaded 2002 SR22 cost about $330K. At that time an A36 cost a LOT more.

An A36 is a BE36 and not a BE35, so this is not a valid comparison.

4) SR22 ingress and egress is easier than a Bonanza.

That is a matter of opinion. In the case of the BE36 you compared, you can't compare the SR22 with the large passenger dual rear door. With the SR22, you almost need to step on the seat and I found it particularly difficult to get in, being old and having a back issue. I have no difficulty in getting into my BE35

5) CAPS is a nice safety feature but budget about $15K for replacement every 10 years. That means a $1500/year reserve.

6) An SR22 (except G2 turbo) is great for loading because it is almost impossible to get out of CG. A BE35 needs to be calculated over the fuel burn for proper CG. A friend often has to move weight from the baggage compartment to the back seat.

I have about 100 hours in the G3 TN. It is a one person airplane with full fuel and a two person airplane with about 40 gallons. In the BE35 from 1966 to 1982, if you takeoff and are loaded inside the envelope, you will remain inside it for a substantial period of time because the rear CG slopes aft at the same rate the CG moves aft due to fuel burn. In the case of any post 1965 BE35, if I depart with fuel fuel at max gross weight and at the aft CG limit, I will remain inside the CG until I have burned 400 of the 444 pounds of fuel. Earlier models have similar rear CG envelope limits, but can burn less fuel before exiting the aft CG (1962 - 1965 about 300 pounds). The F33A has a more restricted aft CG and can often have the issue you indicate, but adding the TN option or tip tanks eliminates this as a major drawback. The BE36 is no comparison as there it is almost impossible to load outside the aft CG envelope. Early models of the BE36 have great useful loads, sometimes exceeding 1400 pounds. STC's are available to change engines, add fuel tip tanks, TN, up max gross weight, and many other modification not available to the SR22. Adding antennas is not a big deal on a BE33/35/36.

7) Speed management is harder on an SR22. If you get a recent enough BE35 so that you have 150 knot gear extension then you can come in screaming all the way to short final. Gear down and full flaps will have things flying forward and the plane will quickly slow down. This is a nice option when getting slam dunked. On an SR22 you need to manage speed and descent or you can get into trouble. The plane is slick. Getting flaps in is key. If it is a slam dunk then you need flaps before the descent or you will never get slow enough to get flaps in.

The 153 Knot gear speed starts in 1969 and 143 Knots in 1962. Both airplanes are slick in the clean configuration.

8) If buying a Bonanza take a hard look at the autopilot including the servos. This can be a big limitation going forward. Just about any Cirrus can be upgraded to an Avidyne DFC90 without replacing the servos. The DFC90 is an excellent AP. The DFC90 blows away the STEC 55X which is itself a nice AP. A Bonanza with King servos will usually require servo replacement to get to an equivalent AP or even a 55X.

A king KFC200/150/225 is a superior autopilot to the Stec 55X. Servo reliability with the KFC225 is less than desireable, but the KFC225 is one of the smoothest autopilots available, but it does not have the full digital capability of the DFC90.

9) The SR22 is noticeably smoother in turbulence than the BE35. The SR22 also lacks the dutch roll of the BE35 so back seat passengers are happier in the SR22.

The dutch roll of all of the Bonanzas, not just the BE35, can be managed by appropriate technique or with a yaw damper. I use the latter. Turbulence on final is easier to manage on a Bonanza than on the SR22 and crosswind handling is also superior with the Bonanza. Flying in smooth air is easier with a Bonanza than with the SR22.

10) The SR22 has dual electrical systems.

12) Seat belts are better in the SR22.

13) The SR22 has better visibility. The side yoke arrangement allows a low glare shield. When I moved from a 172/182 I tended to comb because of the different sight picture. I remember it being weird to see the runway straight ahead while in a landing flair.

I have to disagree with this. A Bonanza level flight attitude is several degrees nose down and particularly in a climb has superior visibility forward. A BE36 is even better because the pilot seats are 10 inches and forward of the wing.

14) The BE35 is better on grass. The tires are bigger and there are no tight wheel fairings to deal with.

15) It is easier to smoothly land a BE35. Bigger tires and shocks on the struts really make a difference. Speed management is key on an SR22 or you can get into PIO.

A full gross BE35 will be off the ground in at most 1100 feet and get stopped in much less. Operating out of a 1500 foot strip is very feasible. It really takes a fool to botch a landing in a BE35. The brakes are much more powerful on the Bonanza and the nose wheel is direct steering. Approaches are much simpler. Set approach power at 15 to 16 inches, flaps up and you will get about 105 to 110 Kts. Intercept the GS and lower the gear. Nothing more to it. Power off at 200 feet and lower the flaps. You will pull off the runway at the first or second exit. EZPZ.
Click to expand...
 
txnightster said:
Just to circle back I wanted to let everyone know that we are nearing the end of the purchase process on a 67 model V35. We are very excited about how everything is coming together and look forward to sharing pictures after the deal is complete.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Bill D.
Click to expand...
Kewl avitar and a Bonanza to boot!

You sir are good enough to call an arkie!
 
John Collins said:
(with my comments)
Here are my thoughts on used Cirrus aircraft vs.BE35 (And mine when I disagree or have something to add):

1) I would take an older SR22 over a newer SR20. The extra power is transformational. Speed is the smallest difference. Climb and high altitude performance differences are huge. I love cruising at 12K-17K on long trips.



2) On the SR22, there are major differences between serial number ranges and not just by version number. The G2 is very different from the G1 but even then there are difference in the G2 such as when the ventilation got redone or ALT1 went from 60A to 100A or instrumentation going from SIU to DAU. Early G1 aircraft are prone to instrument wiring issues. May G1 aircraft have had the wiring issues fixed.

3) Depreciation needs to be considered in context. A brand new fully loaded 2002 SR22 cost about $330K. At that time an A36 cost a LOT more.

An A36 is a BE36 and not a BE35, so this is not a valid comparison.

4) SR22 ingress and egress is easier than a Bonanza.

That is a matter of opinion. In the case of the BE36 you compared, you can't compare the SR22 with the large passenger dual rear door. With the SR22, you almost need to step on the seat and I found it particularly difficult to get in, being old and having a back issue. I have no difficulty in getting into my BE35

5) CAPS is a nice safety feature but budget about $15K for replacement every 10 years. That means a $1500/year reserve.

6) An SR22 (except G2 turbo) is great for loading because it is almost impossible to get out of CG. A BE35 needs to be calculated over the fuel burn for proper CG. A friend often has to move weight from the baggage compartment to the back seat.

I have about 100 hours in the G3 TN. It is a one person airplane with full fuel and a two person airplane with about 40 gallons. In the BE35 from 1966 to 1982, if you takeoff and are loaded inside the envelope, you will remain inside it for a substantial period of time because the rear CG slopes aft at the same rate the CG moves aft due to fuel burn. In the case of any post 1965 BE35, if I depart with fuel fuel at max gross weight and at the aft CG limit, I will remain inside the CG until I have burned 400 of the 444 pounds of fuel. Earlier models have similar rear CG envelope limits, but can burn less fuel before exiting the aft CG (1962 - 1965 about 300 pounds). The F33A has a more restricted aft CG and can often have the issue you indicate, but adding the TN option or tip tanks eliminates this as a major drawback. The BE36 is no comparison as there it is almost impossible to load outside the aft CG envelope. Early models of the BE36 have great useful loads, sometimes exceeding 1400 pounds. STC's are available to change engines, add fuel tip tanks, TN, up max gross weight, and many other modification not available to the SR22. Adding antennas is not a big deal on a BE33/35/36.

7) Speed management is harder on an SR22. If you get a recent enough BE35 so that you have 150 knot gear extension then you can come in screaming all the way to short final. Gear down and full flaps will have things flying forward and the plane will quickly slow down. This is a nice option when getting slam dunked. On an SR22 you need to manage speed and descent or you can get into trouble. The plane is slick. Getting flaps in is key. If it is a slam dunk then you need flaps before the descent or you will never get slow enough to get flaps in.

The 153 Knot gear speed starts in 1969 and 143 Knots in 1962. Both airplanes are slick in the clean configuration.

8) If buying a Bonanza take a hard look at the autopilot including the servos. This can be a big limitation going forward. Just about any Cirrus can be upgraded to an Avidyne DFC90 without replacing the servos. The DFC90 is an excellent AP. The DFC90 blows away the STEC 55X which is itself a nice AP. A Bonanza with King servos will usually require servo replacement to get to an equivalent AP or even a 55X.

A king KFC200/150/225 is a superior autopilot to the Stec 55X. Servo reliability with the KFC225 is less than desireable, but the KFC225 is one of the smoothest autopilots available, but it does not have the full digital capability of the DFC90.

9) The SR22 is noticeably smoother in turbulence than the BE35. The SR22 also lacks the dutch roll of the BE35 so back seat passengers are happier in the SR22.

The dutch roll of all of the Bonanzas, not just the BE35, can be managed by appropriate technique or with a yaw damper. I use the latter. Turbulence on final is easier to manage on a Bonanza than on the SR22 and crosswind handling is also superior with the Bonanza. Flying in smooth air is easier with a Bonanza than with the SR22.

10) The SR22 has dual electrical systems.

12) Seat belts are better in the SR22.

13) The SR22 has better visibility. The side yoke arrangement allows a low glare shield. When I moved from a 172/182 I tended to comb because of the different sight picture. I remember it being weird to see the runway straight ahead while in a landing flair.

I have to disagree with this. A Bonanza level flight attitude is several degrees nose down and particularly in a climb has superior visibility forward. A BE36 is even better because the pilot seats are 10 inches and forward of the wing.

14) The BE35 is better on grass. The tires are bigger and there are no tight wheel fairings to deal with.

15) It is easier to smoothly land a BE35. Bigger tires and shocks on the struts really make a difference. Speed management is key on an SR22 or you can get into PIO.

A full gross BE35 will be off the ground in at most 1100 feet and get stopped in much less. Operating out of a 1500 foot strip is very feasible. It really takes a fool to botch a landing in a BE35. The brakes are much more powerful on the Bonanza and the nose wheel is direct steering. Approaches are much simpler. Set approach power at 15 to 16 inches, flaps up and you will get about 105 to 110 Kts. Intercept the GS and lower the gear. Nothing more to it. Power off at 200 feet and lower the flaps. You will pull off the runway at the first or second exit. EZPZ.
Click to expand...
 
John Collins said:
(with my comments)
Here are my thoughts on used Cirrus aircraft vs.BE35 (And mine when I disagree or have something to add):

1) I would take an older SR22 over a newer SR20. The extra power is transformational. Speed is the smallest difference. Climb and high altitude performance differences are huge. I love cruising at 12K-17K on long trips.



2) On the SR22, there are major differences between serial number ranges and not just by version number. The G2 is very different from the G1 but even then there are difference in the G2 such as when the ventilation got redone or ALT1 went from 60A to 100A or instrumentation going from SIU to DAU. Early G1 aircraft are prone to instrument wiring issues. May G1 aircraft have had the wiring issues fixed.

3) Depreciation needs to be considered in context. A brand new fully loaded 2002 SR22 cost about $330K. At that time an A36 cost a LOT more.

An A36 is a BE36 and not a BE35, so this is not a valid comparison.

4) SR22 ingress and egress is easier than a Bonanza.

That is a matter of opinion. In the case of the BE36 you compared, you can't compare the SR22 with the large passenger dual rear door. With the SR22, you almost need to step on the seat and I found it particularly difficult to get in, being old and having a back issue. I have no difficulty in getting into my BE35

5) CAPS is a nice safety feature but budget about $15K for replacement every 10 years. That means a $1500/year reserve.

6) An SR22 (except G2 turbo) is great for loading because it is almost impossible to get out of CG. A BE35 needs to be calculated over the fuel burn for proper CG. A friend often has to move weight from the baggage compartment to the back seat.

I have about 100 hours in the G3 TN. It is a one person airplane with full fuel and a two person airplane with about 40 gallons. In the BE35 from 1966 to 1982, if you takeoff and are loaded inside the envelope, you will remain inside it for a substantial period of time because the rear CG slopes aft at the same rate the CG moves aft due to fuel burn. In the case of any post 1965 BE35, if I depart with fuel fuel at max gross weight and at the aft CG limit, I will remain inside the CG until I have burned 400 of the 444 pounds of fuel. Earlier models have similar rear CG envelope limits, but can burn less fuel before exiting the aft CG (1962 - 1965 about 300 pounds). The F33A has a more restricted aft CG and can often have the issue you indicate, but adding the TN option or tip tanks eliminates this as a major drawback. The BE36 is no comparison as there it is almost impossible to load outside the aft CG envelope. Early models of the BE36 have great useful loads, sometimes exceeding 1400 pounds. STC's are available to change engines, add fuel tip tanks, TN, up max gross weight, and many other modification not available to the SR22. Adding antennas is not a big deal on a BE33/35/36.

7) Speed management is harder on an SR22. If you get a recent enough BE35 so that you have 150 knot gear extension then you can come in screaming all the way to short final. Gear down and full flaps will have things flying forward and the plane will quickly slow down. This is a nice option when getting slam dunked. On an SR22 you need to manage speed and descent or you can get into trouble. The plane is slick. Getting flaps in is key. If it is a slam dunk then you need flaps before the descent or you will never get slow enough to get flaps in.

The 153 Knot gear speed starts in 1969 and 143 Knots in 1962. Both airplanes are slick in the clean configuration.

8) If buying a Bonanza take a hard look at the autopilot including the servos. This can be a big limitation going forward. Just about any Cirrus can be upgraded to an Avidyne DFC90 without replacing the servos. The DFC90 is an excellent AP. The DFC90 blows away the STEC 55X which is itself a nice AP. A Bonanza with King servos will usually require servo replacement to get to an equivalent AP or even a 55X.

A king KFC200/150/225 is a superior autopilot to the Stec 55X. Servo reliability with the KFC225 is less than desireable, but the KFC225 is one of the smoothest autopilots available, but it does not have the full digital capability of the DFC90.

9) The SR22 is noticeably smoother in turbulence than the BE35. The SR22 also lacks the dutch roll of the BE35 so back seat passengers are happier in the SR22.

The dutch roll of all of the Bonanzas, not just the BE35, can be managed by appropriate technique or with a yaw damper. I use the latter. Turbulence on final is easier to manage on a Bonanza than on the SR22 and crosswind handling is also superior with the Bonanza. Flying in smooth air is easier with a Bonanza than with the SR22.

10) The SR22 has dual electrical systems.

12) Seat belts are better in the SR22.

13) The SR22 has better visibility. The side yoke arrangement allows a low glare shield. When I moved from a 172/182 I tended to comb because of the different sight picture. I remember it being weird to see the runway straight ahead while in a landing flair.

I have to disagree with this. A Bonanza level flight attitude is several degrees nose down and particularly in a climb has superior visibility forward. A BE36 is even better because the pilot seats are 10 inches and forward of the wing.

14) The BE35 is better on grass. The tires are bigger and there are no tight wheel fairings to deal with.

15) It is easier to smoothly land a BE35. Bigger tires and shocks on the struts really make a difference. Speed management is key on an SR22 or you can get into PIO.

A full gross BE35 will be off the ground in at most 1100 feet and get stopped in much less. Operating out of a 1500 foot strip is very feasible. It really takes a fool to botch a landing in a BE35. The brakes are much more powerful on the Bonanza and the nose wheel is direct steering. Approaches are much simpler. Set approach power at 15 to 16 inches, flaps up and you will get about 105 to 110 Kts. Intercept the GS and lower the gear. Nothing more to it. Power off at 200 feet and lower the flaps. You will pull off the runway at the first or second exit. EZPZ.
Click to expand...
 
mohamedpac said:
Everything is exactly the same inside and outside the aircraft, the 22 is just quicker and has better useful load, which isn't that big of a deal in the 20 anyways, the other day I flew from Dallas to San Antonio with nearly full tanks and four guys, no problems.
Click to expand...

4 guys and nearly full tanks? Must be small guys to keep it legal!

I thought I wanted a 22 until I did some math and realized I couldn't take 4 adults and gear anywhere more than a 2 hour flight. Bo36 and never looked back!

Bill: congrats on the decision. If you aren't already on BeechTalk, stop on by!
 
EvilEagle said:
4 guys and nearly full tanks? Must be small guys to keep it legal!

I thought I wanted a 22 until I did some math and realized I couldn't take 4 adults and gear anywhere more than a 2 hour flight. Bo36 and never looked back!
Click to expand...

We are all pretty slim, it was right at the edge of the envelope, no bags. Useful load with full full is about 650lb in my plane, and we each weigh about 150.
 
mohamedpac said:
We are all pretty slim, it was right at the edge of the envelope, no bags. Useful load with full full is about 650lb in my plane, and we each weigh about 150.
Click to expand...

That's a lot left after full fuel - how much gas does it carry?

My buddy's 22 has a UL of just under 1100#, seems like the 20 must be close to that if you can top up the tanks and put 650# in it.
 
3) Depreciation needs to be considered in context. A brand new fully loaded 2002 SR22 cost about $330K. At that time an A36 cost a LOT more.

An A36 is a BE36 and not a BE35, so this is not a valid comparison.
Click to expand...

You miss my point. Depreciation comparisons have to take into account the initial cos too the plane. They also need to take into account the age of the plane. Newer planes depreciate more than older ones. It has little to do with make. Similarly. a plane that cost $600K in 2002 will usually sell for more than one that cost $300K. People often say "A Cirrus depreciates faster than a Bonanza." Well certainly a 2014 Cirrus all depreciate faster than a 1960 Bonanza. Also a 2002 A36 will sell for more than a 2002 SR22 because the purchase price of the A36 was a lot higher.

4) SR22 ingress and egress is easier than a Bonanza.

That is a matter of opinion. In the case of the BE36 you compared, you can't compare the SR22 with the large passenger dual rear door. With the SR22, you almost need to step on the seat and I found it particularly difficult to get in, being old and having a back issue. I have no difficulty in getting into my BE35
Click to expand...

I never said the BE35 was hard to get into. However, it has one door. Put the passenger in the plane and then get in. Easy on an SR22. I also find access to the back seat easier on the SR22. Fortunately this is easy for people to try and see for themselves. You have a point about the A36 when discussing the rear seat access. I still find pilot seat access easier on the SR22.

9) The SR22 is noticeably smoother in turbulence than the BE35. The SR22 also lacks the dutch roll of the BE35 so back seat passengers are happier in the SR22.

The dutch roll of all of the Bonanzas, not just the BE35, can be managed by appropriate technique or with a yaw damper. I use the latter. Turbulence on final is easier to manage on a Bonanza than on the SR22 and crosswind handling is also superior with the Bonanza. Flying in smooth air is easier with a Bonanza than with the SR22.
Click to expand...

I really don't follow this. Why do you say turbulence is easier to handle? That hasn't been my experience. I find the SR22 a lot better in turbulence. The SR22 is a dream in crosswinds. I don't see your point there either. I'm not saying the BE35 is bad. I just don't see it being demonstrably better. Please explain the smooth air comment. The SR22 rides well, as does the BE35 (and most planes) in smooth air. The SR22 is touchier in trim and quicker in pitch.

13) The SR22 has better visibility. The side yoke arrangement allows a low glare shield. When I moved from a 172/182 I tended to comb because of the different sight picture. I remember it being weird to see the runway straight ahead while in a landing flair.

I have to disagree with this. A Bonanza level flight attitude is several degrees nose down and particularly in a climb has superior visibility forward. A BE36 is even better because the pilot seats are 10 inches and forward of the wing.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe it is due to different our body shapes. The SR22 glare shield is lower and I can see better over the nose. The wing sits far enough back on the SR22 that I can look pretty much straight down. This is easy for anyone to check for themselves. I agree that the BE35 wing is also not an issue here. However, I don't find the view over the nose to be as good.

Finally you mention nose wheel steering. Nose wheel steering vs. free castering has plusses and minuses. The steerable nose wheel makes regular taxiing easier. That is particularly true on a windy day. On the other hand the free castering nose wheel allows for easy pivots so that the plane is more maneuverable in tight spaces. This brings up a negative of the SR22. It has a very long wing (38' 6") so you need a wide hangar and you have to be careful in tight spaces.
 
That's all very nice but.....I would never feel anywhere near as comfortable flying the Bonanza at night, over rough terrain or over ocean as I would the Cirrus. BTW how many alternators does the Bonanza have ?
 
Sorry for the quote post with no extra content. Any way to delete a post made by mistake?
 
Art VanDelay said:
That's all very nice but.....I would never feel anywhere near as comfortable flying the Bonanza at night, over rough terrain or over ocean as I would the Cirrus. BTW how many alternators does the Bonanza have ?
Click to expand...

That's becuase you're a 121'er and we all know how emasculated guys get once they go 121. :D
 
EdFred said:
That's becuase you're a 121'er and we all know how emasculated guys get once they go 121. :D
Click to expand...

Sigh....it's so true.

That said, I'd still take a V-tail over a Cirrus. If I ever feel the need to fly something completely devoid of character, I'd just go to work. ;)
 
EdFred said:
That's becuase you're a 121'er and we all know how emasculated guys get once they go 121. :D
Click to expand...
Actually if all I'd ever done was Part 121 flying I'd feel pretty bulletproof. It's the banner towing and bank check hauling I had to do to build FW time that proved to me how frail GA really can be. It's not just engine failure either, it's all the little things that can fail and start a chain.

For the longest time I was not a fan of the Cirrus but after I saw all of the innovative things they put on them to protect the aircraft from the weakest link - the human being - I became a fan.

If you're so brave EdFred maybe you'd like to go for a flight in my gyrocopter sometime ? :D
 
We have those being made on our field, I keep meaning to get a ride in one
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top