Cirrus SR20 transitiona

Flymeariver

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Sorry if has been posted before.
I will be doing a transition from a 180hp C172 to a Cirrus SR20 (avidyne). What all should I expect....besides the extra 20 hp and side stick?
 
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Have you done the Cirrus transition training online?
 
It's just another plane.

But like any other clean low-wing design, it will punish zooming into ground effect with extra speed - much more than a high wing.

I had flown many types prior to my transition, so I did not notice this, but many students reflected that the position of the panel made it seem like they were more "nose low" on approach than they were used to - especially if coming from Cessnas.

If you are at the right speed on final and round out properly to arrive on ground effect no faster than 70k or so, it's easy to hold it off as long as possible and touch down at very close or at the 60k Vso.

Try to force the plane on flat with extra speed and a bounce and porpoise is very possible. But in my opinion no more so than a Grumman, Mooney or Diamond.

Finally, the POH cautions that ALL landings are to be made with full flaps. The only exception should be training for a flap failure. In that case one does NOT continue to hold the plane off - just fly it on in a slight nose-up attitude. Otherwise it IS possible to drag the tail.
 
Re: Cirrus SR20 transition

Have you done the Cirrus transition training online?

My google skills must be lacking, where did you find it? I do know that the Instructor has advised its about a 10 hr timeline to complete the flight/ground portion of the Cirrus Standardized course.
 
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based on too little speed or is it because of the way the side stick is?
Neither. It's no more likely to enter a spin than the 172 unless you try to fly it at 172 speeds. In any event, if your instructor is a CSI using the CSIP syllabus, you should be able to go online at http://cirrusaircraft.com/training/ and do the preparatory work -- ask your instructor to get you a login to do that.
 
I saw that video "anatomy of a cirrus stall" but the guy was doing crazy steep banks.
I to would like to learn more abut the stall spin characteristics versus other planes.
I am sure I will in the transition training but curious if it can be discussed here.

 
Having had one primary student and a handful of transition students, I never saw any sort of untoward stall/spin issues, with perhaps hundreds of approach, departure and accelerated stalls performed.

But there were enough reports of scary incidents that I set a personal minimum of 4,000' AGL for stall practice, with the CAPS "armed" and in mind.

I think I also avoided intentional "cross-control" stalls, since spins were not authorized, and cross-controlling can result in spin inputs, as shown in the video.
 
I saw that video "anatomy of a cirrus stall" but the guy was doing crazy steep banks.
I to would like to learn more abut the stall spin characteristics versus other planes.
I am sure I will in the transition training but curious if it can be discussed here.

It has springs inside the yoke for feel/trim and a laminar cuffed wing. So the feel is substantially different/less positive than a 172 and it will continue to fly right through a stall... until it doesn't. Once the wing is fully stalled, you are DONE flying.

Flatter approach also, especially with the earlier models.
 
So the feel is substantially different/less positive than a 172
That's rather subjective, and not everyone would agree. I think the 172's feel is a lot sloppier/mushier than the much crisper and more positive response of the Cirrus models. Overall, I think the best word to describe it is "different", and whether any pilot prefers one over the other will be purely personal taste.

and it will continue to fly right through a stall... until it doesn't. Once the wing is fully stalled, you are DONE flying.
Not really. Unless you whipstall it, you will still have the outboard sections flying long after the inboard portions have stalled. That's a function of the segmented wing -- and the 172's twisted wing produces the same effect. In either case, you can hold it in a full-yoke-aft stall and still have aileron effectiveness as long as you use your feet properly to prevent any yaw divergence.

Flatter approach also, especially with the earlier models.
If by "flatter" you mean it won't be quite as nose-down at proper approach speed, I'd disagree -- pitch attitude at 1.3 Vs0 is pretty close to zero in both. And the approach path is about the same, too -- you can bring it in at a 6-degree glide path for a landing over obstructions just as easily as a 172, albeit at a higher approach speed. The biggest difference in the approach is the much better visibility over the nose in the Cirrus.
 
Agree with Ron.

Viewed from outside, the pitch of the Cirrus in all phases of flight is quite ordinary.

I concur that the lower panel of the Cirrus simply creates an illusion of more nose down. My Citabrias and Grummans and now my Sky Arrow, all with low panels, create the same illusion and pilots new to them will often climb when seeking a "level" attitude. They need to look at the wing tips to confirm that the obviously nose down attitude is, in fact, level flight.

Sky Arrow example, with camera close to eye level and plane in level flight or close to it.

12926639325_89792065d8.jpg
 
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What all should I expect....besides the extra 20 hp and side stick?


Different avionics, probably. To reduce $ spent on the instructor, I downloaded trainer software for Garmin 430.

The side stick is actually a yoke. You probably already fly in the pattern with just your left hand on a yoke. Just imagine moving that left hand over a few inches. That's all. You will get used to it in seconds.
 
Don't get me wrong, it's a great airplane to fly but don't fall into a false sense of security that it can do more than it was built to do.
 
That's rather subjective, and not everyone would agree. I think the 172's feel is a lot sloppier/mushier than the much crisper and more positive response of the Cirrus models. Overall, I think the best word to describe it is "different", and whether any pilot prefers one over the other will be purely personal taste.

Not really. Unless you whipstall it, you will still have the outboard sections flying long after the inboard portions have stalled. That's a function of the segmented wing -- and the 172's twisted wing produces the same effect. In either case, you can hold it in a full-yoke-aft stall and still have aileron effectiveness as long as you use your feet properly to prevent any yaw divergence.

Learn to read. The springs, trim hat, and the auto-correct when you exceed 45 deg bank means that you cannot fly it entirely by feel like a 172, aka "less positive" on the control feedback. This is mostly a problem with unusual attitudes or manuevering where some pilots use the trim simultaneously with the yoke.

As for the wing- it is a laminar flow airfoil. When it stalls, it STALLS. The cuffed wing helps greatly, as it essentially makes stalling a 2-phase process, but still- fully stalling that wing on both the inboard and outboard portions will be quick and very exciting.
 
The springs, trim hat, and the auto-correct when you exceed 45 deg bank means that you cannot fly it entirely by feel like a 172, aka "less positive" on the control feedback.

Always felt completely normal to me.

A bit heavier on the controls than the Tiger I moved from, but not fundamentally different than a 210 or Cherokee 6 that I can recall.

Or maybe I lack the "touch" to take note of the difference.
 
I was getting training in the sr22 today. That thing is very hard to stall. This was a G5 model. Much better than my G1 sr20. I can stall the 20 pretty easily.
 
Or maybe I lack the "touch" to take note of the difference.

Apparently...

To the OP and 6PC: as the stall-spin video shows, Cirri will fly during stalls and you can put them into some fairly extreme maneuvers even when slow or with the cuff stalled. BUT with the spring system, finger-usable 4-way trim hat, and laminar flow wing, a Cirri will not be as 2x4-to-the-head obvious that it is ready to quit flying as a primary trainer would be.

An inattentive or unknowledgable pilot flying by feel alone can readily miss the signs that the plane is in a low-energy state. The only unmissable wakeup call is when the laminar flow separates and the plane starts falling- but by then you're pulling the chute if luck is on your side.
 
Learn to read. The springs, trim hat, and the auto-correct when you exceed 45 deg bank means that you cannot fly it entirely by feel like a 172, aka "less positive" on the control feedback. This is mostly a problem with unusual attitudes or manuevering where some pilots use the trim simultaneously with the yoke.
I've got enough time in Cirrus aircraft to say that is utter nonsense.

As for the wing- it is a laminar flow airfoil. When it stalls, it STALLS. The cuffed wing helps greatly, as it essentially makes stalling a 2-phase process, but still- fully stalling that wing on both the inboard and outboard portions will be quick and very exciting.
Again, I've done enough stalls in Cirrus aircraft to say that it is neither quick nor exciting, and further that unless you whipstall it (a prohibited maneuver in both the 172 and the Cirrus, and one I've never attempted in either), you can't stall the outboard portion of the wing. Further, that's a Part 23 certification issue, and the plane wouldn't be certified if it were any other way. In any event, the fact that a wing has a laminar flow airfoil doesn't automatically create a quick/exciting stall -- ask any Cessna Cardinal pilot.
 
I was getting training in the sr22 today. That thing is very hard to stall. This was a G5 model. Much better than my G1 sr20. I can stall the 20 pretty easily.
The reason the 22's are hard to stall (especially the ones with both turbo and a/c) is how far forward the cg is with only two people aboard. Same for making a nice landing on the mains without the nose dropping on -- just a little harder thanks to the cg location with nothing in the back seat.
 
I've got enough time in Cirrus aircraft to say that is utter nonsense.

And the accident record and forensic reconstructions support my statement. But I know how your long history in aviation is enough to refute multiple crash investigations, accident statistics, human-factors design, and physics.:lol::lol::lol:
 
Apparently...

To the OP and 6PC: as the stall-spin video shows, Cirri will fly during stalls and you can put them into some fairly extreme maneuvers even when slow or with the cuff stalled. BUT with the spring system, finger-usable 4-way trim hat, and laminar flow wing, a Cirri will not be as 2x4-to-the-head obvious that it is ready to quit flying as a primary trainer would be.

An inattentive or unknowledgable pilot flying by feel alone can readily miss the signs that the plane is in a low-energy state. The only unmissable wakeup call is when the laminar flow separates and the plane starts falling- but by then you're pulling the chute if luck is on your side.

Ahh, thanks! So pretty much as the same with any A/C airspeed management is your friend.
 
Different avionics, probably. To reduce $ spent on the instructor, I downloaded trainer software for Garmin 430.

The side stick is actually a yoke. You probably already fly in the pattern with just your left hand on a yoke. Just imagine moving that left hand over a few inches. That's all. You will get used to it in seconds.

Thanks! I was aware it is a yoke...just Siri wanted to keep changing it to yolk so I made it a word she could handle :)
 
If you try to control a Cirrus with a yolk, you may end up with egg on your face ;)
 
And the accident record and forensic reconstructions support my statement. But I know how your long history in aviation is enough to refute multiple crash investigations, accident statistics, human-factors design, and physics.:lol::lol::lol:
:sigh: OK, let's see those "multiple crash investigations, accident statistics, human-factors design, and physics" which tell us that you can fully stall the entire wing on a Cirrus without doing a prohibited whipstall, and that any such stalls have actually occurred. Because I can point you to the FAA certification standards which say this airplane would not be certified if that were true. As for the rest, just ask anyone with more than 50 hours or so in type and who's actually given training in them.
 
As for the rest, just ask anyone with more than 50 hours or so in type and who's actually given training in them.

As far as my insensitivity goes, I'll stipulate that others may have more refined "feel"...

I do have at least 600 hours in type, including Primary, Instrument and Transition training given. Was CSIP certified, but no longer current.

And I'll stand by my previous statement: just another plane.
 
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As far as my insensitivity goes, and I'll stipulate that others may have more refined "feel"...

I do have at least 600 hours in type, including Primary, Instrument and Transition training given. Was CSIP certified, but no longer current.

And I'll stand by my previous statement: just another plane.
Ayup. Just ask the person who flies one.:yes:
 
Finally, the POH cautions that ALL landings are to be made with full flaps.
Hmm.. and what about if you carry/suspect ice? Extending flaps could be deadly.
Actually my Cirrus FOM clearly states that pilot should develop proficiency in partial flap landings.
 
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Hmm.. and what about if you carry/suspect ice? Extending flaps could be deadly.
Actually my Cirrus FOM clearly states that pilot should develop proficiency in partial flap landings.

And partial flap landings should be taught and be in the pilot's skill set.

This was the POH wording in 2003:

7801706398_9dcc53205b.jpg


As a published "Caution", if a pilot came to grief in a partial flap landing for other than training or a clearly articulable reason (ice), it could show up as a contributing factor in an NTSB report.

Anyway, in my Cirrus I virtually always used full flaps. As an instructor back then, I got plenty of practice with partial flap landings with students. Were I not instructing, I might do partial or no flaps periodically for proficiency's sake, as I do now in my Sky Arrow.
 
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How are you doing OP?
I am flying the 22 now and it is eating my lunch.
 
Sorry if has been posted before.
I will be doing a transition from a 180hp C172 to a Cirrus SR20 (avidyne). What all should I expect....besides the extra 20 hp and side stick?

Avionics. If you know the 430, you know the most of it, the Avidyne stuff itself was pretty straight forward, but there's a lot of electrical system to learn. Planes are planes are planes when it comes to physically maneuvering them. If it has passed certification it isn't going to have any dangerous habits, and the Cirrus is simple to handle. The spring on the side yoke (it's a yoke action, not a stick, subtle difference in ergonomics) is a bit interesting. I haven't flown one since the 22 G2 came out, but back then the trim system was super sensitive and electric only. I understand that newer ones are much better, and since I never hear about it anymore, that the fix was retrofitted. I would just flick it and boom, over trimmed. What I finally did was went way too far and then brought it back to a good stop.
 
I did own and fly a SR20 (2004) and I loved flying it. Great airplane and I also got my commercial ticket in it. Hade to jump in a Cessna RG for a quick trip to get the gear and prop stuff taken care off.

Easy to fly and great avionics.

I am contemplating buying my next airplane and its bethween a Cirrus or a Seneca III
 
How are you doing OP?
I am flying the 22 now and it is eating my lunch.

Well if the snow would cease I'd be alright :mad2: The last three flights have been dropped due to snow. Hopefully I'll be signed off early March :). Sounds like your having a blast too
 
Well if the snow would cease I'd be alright :mad2: The last three flights have been dropped due to snow. Hopefully I'll be signed off early March :). Sounds like your having a blast too

I am but it is a bit overwhelming.

I am greasing my landings but I suck at slowing it down. I flew a nice 120 downwind leg 500 feet above TPA today because I couldn't get it to slow down.

That has been the biggest struggle aside from learning the bells and whistles.

That part of the flight in between take off and landing has been just awesome :)
 
I just started a Cirtus transition last weekend. Basic maneuvers were no big deal including stalls. Don't know if its me, but stalls were benign. Easy to land. My advice? Do a proper transition with CSIP or CTC. Use the portal learning first. Biggest issue I encountered? Getting used to differential taxiing.
 
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I am but it is a bit overwhelming.

I am greasing my landings but I suck at slowing it down. I flew a nice 120 downwind leg 500 feet above TPA today because I couldn't get it to slow down.

That has been the biggest struggle aside from learning the bells and whistles.

That part of the flight in between take off and landing has been just awesome :)

I found that my old cirrus would slow down very fast if I pulled power and pitched up a little....

Or learn how to do an overhead break :D To compete with the RV flyers.
 
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