Circuit breaker popped

[PPC1052]

Well, in general, I don't like it. So it's going to go to the shop for trouble shooting. Seems likely that whatever it is is an easy fix (loose/frayed connection, aging circuit breaker, etc.), assuming it can be identified, and has the potential for catastrophic loss if not corrected.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, in general, I don't like it. So it's going to go to the shop for trouble shooting. Seems likely that whatever it is is an easy fix (loose/frayed connection, aging circuit breaker, etc.), assuming it can be identified, and has the potential for catastrophic loss if not corrected.

 

[Jay Honeck]

You guys really don't know who Weirdjim is, do you?

Let's start with "engineer on Project Apollo"... Remember that little jaunt to the moon, back when we were kids?

After that, there's not much else that needs to be said.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You guys really don't know who Weirdjim is, do you?

He's ran his resume here many times.

Let's start with "engineer on Project Apollo"...

Him and many thousands of other people.

After that, there's not much else that needs to be said.

Yep, his posts tells you all you need to know.

 

[kontiki]

You guys really don't know who Weirdjim is, do you?

Let's start with "engineer on Project Apollo"... Remember that little jaunt to the moon, back when we were kids?

After that, there's not much else that needs to be said.

I've known people that made claims like that before. I wonder what the facts are. When your an engineer people toss all sorts of junk out there as a sort of status to let you know they are a player.

Unfortunately, Jim's behavior looks a lot like what I see in an old timer that should have left here about 5 years ago. With our guy, some folks remember his better days, but for as long as he's been here, folks have had to carry him. He's done nothing. Finally after a particularly gruesome incident earlier this month, the management is finally doing something about it. So, he's gone at the end of the month.

One problem I've seen in the months getting to this point is that our guy has had increasing difficulty being civil to people, I guess to mask his own lapses. The smoke screen and lying has steadily gotten worse. I don't know anything about Jim. This is a social networking site than can be fun when it's not flooded with messed up people. I was wondering what's going on with this guy Jim. I do recognize the similarities in behavior. You don't get so many telltale clues when you can't see the source.

 

[weirdjim]

I've known people that made claims like that before. I wonder what the facts are. When your an engineer people toss all sorts of junk out there as a sort of status to let you know they are a player.

I'm sorry Jay posted that. I have never traded on what I did unless it was germane. I doubt many of you would have needed advice on a 13 Gig doppler landing radar.

Unfortunately, Jim's behavior looks a lot like what I see in an old timer that should have left here about 5 years ago.

I have that deal with my department chair. If any **ANY** student walks into his office WITH REASON and says, "That old fart doesn't know what he is talking about" I'll hand in my resignation. So far, periodic anonymous student evaluations rank me right there at the top of the pack.

With our guy, some folks remember his better days

My better days have always been ahead of me. I've not rested on my laurels and don't intend on doing so.

, but for as long as he's been here, folks have had to carry him. He's done nothing.

Nothing except point out that one particular "engineer" is blowing smoke out of both ends with absolutely no theoretical or practical background to base it on.

Finally after a particularly gruesome incident earlier this month, the management is finally doing something about it. So, he's gone at the end of the month.

News to me. But do whatever you will.

One problem I've seen in the months getting to this point is that our guy has had increasing difficulty being civil to people

I do not suffer fools graciously. I had to do that WAY too much when I was a young engineer who had to kowtow to my elders that had difficulty finding their butts in a phone booth with both hands and a GPS.

, I guess to mask his own lapses. The smoke screen and lying has steadily gotten worse.

I'd like an example or two about the lying.

I don't know anything about Jim. This is a social networking site than can be fun when it's not flooded with messed up people. I was wondering what's going on with this guy Jim. I do recognize the similarities in behavior. You don't get so many telltale clues when you can't see the source.

It must be difficult for you to deal with a subject that you know relatively little about and try to bluff your way through it. ANd then get called on it by a couple of us who know what the hell we are talking about. That must be very hard on your ego.

Then again, this **IS** a social networking site and if you say the sky is green, you have the right to say so. We have the right to say you are wrong.

Thanks,

Jim

.....

 

[PPC1052]

Why is everything in here such a MAJOR catastrophe that we should IMMEDIATELY ground the airplane and if we don't the thing will FALL OUT OF THE sky and maim THOUSANDS of innocent children on the playground.

For crying out loud. You popped a circuit breaker.

I just asked the question.

FOr all we know some errant electron decided that this was the day to swim upstream and take elevendy billion of his friends with him.

True. I don't know. But I don't know if there is a frayed connection, or failing circuit breaker, or some other potentially dangerous situation. Do you?

WHen it happens again in a week or so come talk to us about it. Until then it is sort of like the old maxim that it isn't the first time you can't do it the second time that is the problem, it is the second time you can't do it the first time.

When it happens again, let us know. Until then, have a good flight.

Jim

I will.

 

[kontiki]

We are all judged despite ourselves. I don't really care about any of this. I cut paper to approve minor alterations to procedures and airplanes and temporary repairs daily. If the FAA doesn't like it, i get a letter of inquiry, or turned in by my own people for voluntary disclosure reasons.

I used to work on airplanes for a living, i now only work on mine if i can get enough time off.

I have a 4 year engineering degree, and dont do design work. Most of your students will not. I make money for this place, they like my work, I like this job.

I type some of these responses using 1 finger in an iPad.

You speak to me so loudly i can't hear a word you say. You have provided info i found useful so i like to be kind. The vast majority of what you say seems to be something you need to say for emotional reasons. Too bad, there are things i would have liked to ask, but its not worth the effort. I post those questions for engineering tips.com.

Oh yeah -> http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/SelectTeacher.jsp?sid=1305&orderby=TLName&letter=W&pageNo=2

 

[Jay Honeck]

I've known people that made claims like that before. I wonder what the facts are. When your an engineer people toss all sorts of junk out there as a sort of status to let you know they are a player.

Unfortunately, Jim's behavior looks a lot like what I see in an old timer that should have left here about 5 years ago. With our guy, some folks remember his better days, but for as long as he's been here, folks have had to carry him. He's done nothing. Finally after a particularly gruesome incident earlier this month, the management is finally doing something about it. So, he's gone at the end of the month.

One problem I've seen in the months getting to this point is that our guy has had increasing difficulty being civil to people, I guess to mask his own lapses. The smoke screen and lying has steadily gotten worse. I don't know anything about Jim. This is a social networking site than can be fun when it's not flooded with messed up people. I was wondering what's going on with this guy Jim. I do recognize the similarities in behavior. You don't get so many telltale clues when you can't see the source.

Well, stop by the hotel some time, and I will show you our Apollo Room, which sports some pretty interesting stuff (like an instrument from a lunar module), all courtesy of our friend Weirdjim.

I have no evidence that he's anything but what he says he is. I've attended his forums at OSH, drank more than a few beers with him, and can vouch for the fact that he is a true gentleman.

His on-line persona has always been a bit different, but I think his choice of screen name reflects his attitude toward posting here. lol

My only gripe with him is that he keeps using women as an excuse for not attending Oshkosh... Lame.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since the subject of Project Apollo has been raised, I would point out that it was an electrical fault in an Apollo spacecraft which killed Grissom, White, and Chaffee, and an electrical fault in an Apollo spacecraft which almost killed Lovell, Haise, and Swigert. Imagine in each case if a c/b had popped before the fire started or the tank blew. Imagine further if they had reset it.

So I recommend you read the SAIB linked above and do what it says unless you have a really, really good reason to reset a c/b in flight.

 

[weirdjim]

Just to set the record straight ...

Since the subject of Project Apollo has been raised, I would point out that it was an electrical fault in an Apollo spacecraft which killed Grissom, White, and Chaffee,

The "fault", if there was one, has never been determined. Indeed, the last sentence indicates that tests showed that nylon space suits rubbing on nylon chairs was a possible ignition source. Certainly we have not yet figured out how to put circuit breakers on nylon.

"The review board determined that the electrical power momentarily failed at 23:30:55 GMT, and found evidence of several electric arcs in the interior equipment. However, they were unable to conclusively identify a single ignition source. They determined that the fire most likely started near the floor in the lower left section of the cabin, close to the Environmental Control Unit.[11] It spread from the left wall of the cabin to the right, with the floor being affected only briefly. The engulfed area on the left contained the manual depressurization valve which would have been used to vent the cabin atmosphere to the outside. Consequently, the astronauts were unable to reach it, however this was in any case insufficient to prevent heat and pressure buildup.[19] They noted a silver-plated copper wire running through an environmental control unit near the center couch had become stripped of its Teflon insulation and abraded by repeated opening and closing of a small access door. This weak point in the wiring also ran near a junction in an ethylene glycol/water cooling line which had been prone to leaks. The electrolysis of ethylene glycol solution with the silver anode was a notable hazard which could cause a violent exothermic reaction, igniting the ethylene glycol mixture in the CM's corrosive test atmosphere of pure, high-pressure oxygen.[20][21]
In 1968, a team of MIT physicists went to Cape Kennedy and performed a static discharge test in the CM-103 Command Module while it was being prepared for the launch of Apollo 8. With an electroscope, they measured the approximate energy of static discharges caused by a test crew dressed in nylon flight pressure suits and reclining on the nylon flight seats. The MIT investigators found sufficient energy for ignition discharged repeatedly when crew-members shifted in their seats and then touched the spacecraft's aluminum panels.

The more serious "fault" if we are finding fault was the engineering decision to run on 100% oxygen in order to reduce the amount of pressure inside the cabin and thus reduce the amount of structure needed to construct the pressure vessel.


and an electrical fault in an Apollo spacecraft which almost killed Lovell, Haise, and Swigert.

You may, if you wish, call running a 28 volt device from a 65 volt system a "fault", but it was more like a stupid design error. Dropping and damaging the oxygen tank that blew up was compounding that error.


[FONT=&quot]In October 1968, the Number 2 tank eventually used on Apollo 13 was at the North American Aviation plant in Downey, California. There, technicians who were handling the tank accidentally dropped it about two inches. After testing the tank, they concluded the incident hadn't caused any detectable damage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The dropped tank was eventually cleared for flight and installed in Apollo 13. The tank passed all of its routine prelaunch tests. But at the end of March 1970, after a practice session called the Countdown Demonstration Test, ground crews tried to empty the tank -- and couldn’t. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The small tube used to fill and empty the tank of its super-cold contents had been damaged by the mishandling almost two years earlier. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To get around the problem, workers turned on heaters inside the tank to warm up the remaining liquid oxygen, turning it into gas that could then be vented to the outside. The thermostat inside the tank was supposed to prevent the temperature from exceeding 80 degrees Fahrenheit (25 degrees Centigrade).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But as the temperature inside the tank rose, the thermostat was activated, and the oversight from 1965 came into play. The resulting surge of electricity at 65 volts caused the 28-volt thermostat to weld shut. Technicians failed to notice the situation, and during the procedure to empty the tank, temperatures inside rose to 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit (500 degrees Centigrade). The intense heat damaged some insulation on wiring inside the tank.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No one knew it, but when Apollo 13 lifted off, it carried the makings of a small bomb inside its service module. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The "bomb" was triggered on the evening of April 13 when ground controllers asked Jack Swigert to turn on the fans inside the service module's two liquid-oxygen tanks, as a way of stirring the contents, to allow more accurate quantity readings.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the fan inside the Number 2 tank was turned on, the damaged wiring caused a spark, starting a fire inside the oxygen tank.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With pure oxygen feeding the fire, the pressure inside quickly grew to the point where the tank burst open, at the same time damaging much of the other plumbing inside the densely packed service module and crippling the spacecraft.[/FONT]

Imagine in each case if a c/b had popped before the fire started or the tank blew. Imagine further if they had reset it.

But there WAS no circuit breaker that popped on either of these accidents, so you are once again setting up a straw man that you might blow it down with a zephyr. Keep to the subject.

So I recommend you read the SAIB ??? linked above and do what it says unless you have a really, really good reason to reset a c/b in flight.

.....

 

[poadeleted20]

Jim doesn't get my point. Too bad. As I said, imagine if a c/b had popped. IOW, imagine that there been one, and it had popped and then been left alone -- those accidents might not have occurred. Please try to learn from history, and if a c/b pops in flight, leave it popped unless you really need it to end the flight safely.

 

[jesse]

Jim doesn't get my point. Too bad. As I said, imagine if a c/b had popped. IOW, imagine that there been one, and it had popped and then been left alone -- those accidents might not have occurred. Please try to learn from history, and if a c/b pops in flight, leave it popped unless you really need it to end the flight safely.

Imagine if Titanic had a circuit breaker that had popped, and imagine that they left it alone, imagine that they might not have sunk? Learn from history, remember the Titanic, don't reset circuit breakers in flight? Uh ok.

 

[weirdjim]

Imagine if Titanic had a circuit breaker that had popped, and imagine that they left it alone, imagine that they might not have sunk? Learn from history, remember the Titanic, don't reset circuit breakers in flight? Uh ok.

And if hoptoad IMAGINED long legs does that mean he wouldn't bump his fanny when he hopped?

Jim

 

[Jim Logajan]

I've said it the same way I'd tell an errant student that kept making the same mistake over and over.

What mistake is or was being repeated?

As to the technical content you've so far posted to this thread in support of your recommendations, I am curious about the theory of electrons swimming upstream. If you could expound more on that it would be appreciated.

 

[poadeleted20]

Imagine if Titanic had a circuit breaker that had popped, and imagine that they left it alone, imagine that they might not have sunk? Learn from history, remember the Titanic, don't reset circuit breakers in flight? Uh ok.

Well, to take your analogy, if the iceberg had put only a scrape in the side, I sure wouldn't have turned back into it to see whether the next impact would penetrate the hull.

Y'all need to think of a c/b as a big red warning light. If a warning light comes on when you do something, and then goes out when corrective action is taken, you don't do the same thing again to see whether it comes on again.

 

[bnt83]

Well, to take your analogy, if the iceberg had put only a scrape in the side, I sure wouldn't have turned back into it to see whether the next impact would penetrate the hull.

Y'all need to think of a c/b as a big red warning light. If a warning light comes on when you do something, and then goes out when corrective action is taken, you don't do the same thing again to see whether it comes on again.

I see your schwartz is as big as mine.

Imagine if we grounded every aircraft for an intermittent fault until an EXHAUSTIVE effort (think interior removal for access @ hundreds of hours on a biz jet) was spent trying to find it. Nothing would fly again.

I've seen squawks like "popping sound under cockpit floor when flying through rain and climbing" only to spend 45 hours removing the interior bits up front, cockpit floors etc and finding nothing.

Don't even get me started on autopilot problems.

You have good advice but unfortunately we live in a very imperfect world.

 

[bnt83]

Imagine if Titanic had a circuit breaker that had popped, and imagine that they left it alone, imagine that they might not have sunk? Learn from history, remember the Titanic, don't reset circuit breakers in flight? Uh ok.

You should meet my uncle. "Hell we used superglue to keep the breakers from popping in F4's"

 

[poadeleted20]

I see your schwartz is as big as mine.

Imagine if we grounded every aircraft for an intermittent fault until an EXHAUSTIVE effort (think interior removal for access @ hundreds of hours on a biz jet) was spent trying to find it. Nothing would fly again.

I've seen squawks like "popping sound under cockpit floor when flying through rain and climbing" only to spend 45 hours removing the interior bits up front, cockpit floors etc and finding nothing.

Don't even get me started on autopilot problems.

You have good advice but unfortunately we live in a very imperfect world.

I've learned the hard (i.e., scary) way that if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but if it ain't fixed, don't fly it. And to me, if a c/b pops, it's broke enough to leave alone until you land unless you really need it. If maintenance can't find a cause, and the c/b resets on the ground, fine -- I'll take it. But if it happens again on the next flight, that plane gets grounded until the cause is determined, 'cause like the say, "third time's the charm".

 

[poadeleted20]

You should meet my uncle. "Hell we used superglue to keep the breakers from popping in F4's"

The accident rate in the fighter world then was 10 times what it is now, too. Cause and effect?

 

[bnt83]

The accident rate in the fighter world then was 10 times what it is now, too. Cause and effect?

How many of those Cessna breakers are stuck? You know, the ones you cannot physically pull. FAA approved and flying for decades. No MM task to short them out to see if they do work.

 

[poadeleted20]

How many of those Cessna breakers are stuck? You know, the ones you cannot physically pull. FAA approved and flying for decades. No MM task to short them out to see if they do work.

Aside from the fact that you can't hear a dog that doesn't bark at all, the issue isn't a c/b that's stuck in, it's one that has already popped, so let's stay on that concept -- a warning which has already sounded once.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Well, to take your analogy, if the iceberg had put only a scrape in the side, I sure wouldn't have turned back into it to see whether the next impact would penetrate the hull.

Y'all need to think of a c/b as a big red warning light. If a warning light comes on when you do something, and then goes out when corrective action is taken, you don't do the same thing again to see whether it comes on again.

But what if a circuit breaker pops and you do the "fastest CB reset ever" and accidentally reset the wrong breaker?

 

[weirdjim]

But what if a circuit breaker pops and you do the "fastest CB reset ever" and accidentally reset the wrong breaker?

What happens if you accidentally pull the mixture instead of the throttle on downwind?

Jim

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess R&W and weirdjim think they're smarter than the FAA on this. Fine -- they can do what they want, and I'm done being trolled. But my advice remains the same as the FAA's -- if it pops, leave it alone until maintenance can look at it unless you need it to land safely.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I guess R&W and weirdjim think they're smarter than the FAA on this. Fine -- they can do what they want, and I'm done being trolled. But my advice remains the same as the FAA's -- if it pops, leave it alone until maintenance can look at it unless you need it to land safely.

 

[bnt83]

That's a good one!!