Circling approaches

[dtuuri]

No, but if I’m on base descending through the same altitude over the same spot, why does it matter whether I’m VFR or IFR?

It doesn't. It matters if you can see what's in that spot if you aren't familiar with the airport. At MDA, you can be 300 AGL on downwind and base, yet be 1000 feet above the runway. Starting down on base leg over an unlit hillside in the dark could put you in the cemetery with Walter Reuther: https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=2646&key=0

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Whit...eous Folders/Miscellaneous II/Misc II-198.pdf

 

[MauleSkinner]

It doesn't. It matters if you can see what's in that spot if you aren't familiar with the airport. At MDA, you can be 300 AGL on downwind and base, yet be 1000 feet above the runway. Starting down on base leg over an unlit hillside in the dark could put you in the cemetery with Walter Reuther: https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=2646&key=0

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White Materials/White Assassination Clippings Folders/Miscellaneous Folders/Miscellaneous II/Misc II-198.pdf

Agreed. And starting that same descent over the same unlit hillside in the same dark is no less hazardous when VFR, so why add additional requirements to visual maneuvers simply because you’re IFR?

 

[PaulS]

You make some interesting points. For an ol' guy like me, the old circling radii still stands. I had it memorized whereas the new ones I'd need to refer to a chart. Never had a problem staying inside the old ones anyway. As for the vis limit and staying closer than that, well, it helps to pick a homing landmark 1/2 mile off the approach end of the runway, so if you DO lose sight of the threshold, temporarily, you still know where you are. If the legality of that is concerning, I suppose you could ask for a contact. I'd rather keep my mouth shut.

It's pretty simple unless you fly multiple aircraft. For me it's Cat B, so 1.5 for regular, 1.7 for enhanced. I don't worry about over 1,000 feet until I need to.

 

[dtuuri]

Agreed. And starting that same descent over the same unlit hillside in the same dark is no less hazardous when VFR, so why add additional requirements to visual maneuvers simply because you’re IFR?

You just seem to be toying around today. For the P-nut gallery, you wouldn't descend into the trees on the hill unless it was too dark to know what's below, so you stay at MDA until turning final where you'll be within the obstacle plane that requires any obstructions to be lit.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You just seem to be toying around today. For the P-nut gallery, you wouldn't descend into the trees on the hill unless it was too dark to know what's below, so you stay at MDA until turning final where you'll be within the obstacle plane that requires any obstructions to be lit.

No, I’m not toying... I’m trying to find out why you seem to think that if I properly plan a descent from a VFR pattern to the runway to avoid hitting something, why that same planning isn’t adequate for a CTL.

 

[dtuuri]

No, I’m not toying... I’m trying to find out why you seem to think that if I properly plan a descent from a VFR pattern to the runway to avoid hitting something, why that same planning isn’t adequate for a CTL.

Because it's NIGHT time at an unfamiliar airport? By definition, your planning can't be "adequate". Do you wear night vision goggles?

 

[MauleSkinner]

So we simply disagree on whether VFR at night is safe. Fine, I can accept that.

But if you want to limit the discussion to unfamiliar mountainous airports at night, I’m not going to circle OR fly a VFR pattern. Whether VFR or IFR, I’m going to follow a straight-in approach procedure. So “by definition “, there’s again no difference in safety whether I’m IFR or VFR.

 

[dtuuri]

So we simply disagree on whether VFR at night is safe.

No, that's not where we disagree.

But if you want to limit the discussion to unfamiliar mountainous airports at night...

No, not limiting to mountainous airports either. It doesn't matter if you hit a small hill or big mountain, the result will be the same. I don't quite see the point of your line of questioning. You seem to be trying to justify some training advice you've made up that goes something like this, "It doesn't matter if it's IFR or VFR, just descend at the same place, the same way, day or night, familiar airport or not." I don't agree with that for the stated reasons and don't see any point in going on with this.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You seem to be trying to justify some training advice you've made up that goes something like this, "It doesn't matter if it's IFR or VFR, just descend at the same place, the same way, day or night, familiar airport or not." I don't agree with that for the stated reasons and don't see any point in going on with this.

That’s not what I’m saying, but since neither of us seems to be able to make ourselves understood, it’s probably best to discontinue the discussion.