Chicago Area FAA User Symposium 2/27/2008

[gprellwitz]

I plan to go to this. Note that the space there is somewhat limited, so we don't want to overwhelm them. Let me know if you're interested and I'll get you registration info.


Chicago Air Route Traffic Control Center

Chicago Area Customer Symposium

Chicago Center, Chicago TRACON and O'Hare Tower are joining together to host our second annual Customer Symposium on Wednesday, February 27, 2008. This event will be conducted at Chicago Center, in Aurora, Illinois. The primary intent of the Customer Symposium is to listen to you, our customers. We want to hear your feedback on our performance, as well as your ideas for improving service delivery.

Several of our customers have graciously agreed to conduct presentations during the symposium. Personnel from the three facilities will be providing an update on O'Hare Modernization and the operational changes planned for April 2008 and November 2008. There will also be an opportunity for open discussion among FAA personnel and the meeting participants.

The objective of the Customer Symposium is to establish a better link between you, our valued customers, and the people of O'Hare Tower, Chicago TRACON and Chicago Center. The meeting is scheduled from 9:00-4:30. Facility tours are available before and after the event.

Lunch and morning/afternoon refreshments will be provided. We are requesting a donation of $5.00 per person to help cover expenses.

 

[mikea]

LOL! The next thing will be for the TSA to have a blog where users can send comments.

I wonder how loud the screaming will get before they cut off questions.

 

[gprellwitz]

You note that the users they have speaking are two airlines. That's why I want to go; go get some representation from the GA community, even if we are only the little gnats buzzing around their headsets.

 

[bstratt]

I'd definitely think about it but I'm on vacation unfortunately.

 

[mikea]

You note that the users they have speaking are two airlines. That's why I want to go; go get some representation from the GA community, even if we are only the little gnats buzzing around their headsets.

Just like the online complaint form has a box for the airline.

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm on vacation unfortunately.

I rarely hear "unfortunately" associated with being on vacation!

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, got back from the 2008 Chicago Area Customer Symposium a little while ago.

There wasn't a whole lot of interest to GA pilots in the presentations, though the last one of the day was about ADS-B. (Note that the comment period for the NPRM ends in a few days on 3/3 in case you wanted to make comments! AOPA and ATA are the two organizations that lobbied successfully to get the extension on the comment period.)


I did have a chance to talk with Joan Linnane, the district manager at Chicago TRACON (C90). She was very nice. I expressed GA's frustration at feeling like their radios wouldn't receive transmissions from anyone who used propellers, and indicated that we would like to work with their controllers in the interest of safety. She indicated that for now at least thety have additional coverage on the VFR Advisory frequency of 126.8 as they have new people coming through training. Apparently, this is often one of the few positions new people are qualified to staff without a trainer or supervisor. (Note that I may be mis-stating the details a little).

I then asked what we could do to make the interaction better, jokingly suggesting staying on the ground or flying more. She brought over Dave Stock(?), one of the operations managers at C90. He first asked if we wanted an honest answer, to which we, of course, responded in the affirmative. He said "fly somewhere else". He doesn't want the liability or workload of keeping track of the small planes around the area. Flying IFR would be a help.

If you need practice IFR approaches in the area, do them around Aurora or DuPage or, even better, out at Rockford. The sector that handles Lewis also handles Midway, so they won't have time for you. And Palwaukee (Chicago Executive) keeps the northern sector busy, so that's not a good place.

 

[mikea]

...
I then asked what we could do to make the interaction better, jokingly suggesting staying on the ground or flying more. She brought over Dave Stock(?), one of the operations managers at C90. He first asked if we wanted an honest answer, to which we, of course, responded in the affirmative. He said "fly somewhere else". .

12 million people in metropolitan area and they should go somewhere else. HE needs to go work doing something else.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

She brought over Dave Stock(?), one of the operations managers at C90. He first asked if we wanted an honest answer, to which we, of course, responded in the affirmative. He said "fly somewhere else". He doesn't want the liability or workload of keeping track of the small planes around the area. Flying IFR would be a help.

You mean the guys who push tin in and out of the three major NY airports and 5 busy satellite fields can handle VFR aircraft just fine, but the C90 guys can't take the heat? BS.

N90'll let me fly just about anywhere I want at the altitude of their choosing (down the Hudson river at 2,000 feet, over JFK at 5,000 feet, etc) and is a normal operating practice for them. Why C90 folks can't integrate this into their every day operations, I haven't the slightest clue.

 

[gprellwitz]

Dave said that he used to be in Phoenix, and that they were set up to deal with it there, with VFR corridors and everything, but that Chicago just isn't set up to be able to handle it. He said that he doesn't have enough personnel to be able to handle all the sectors that would be required. I have no idea what their relative staffing levels are.

 

[rottydaddy]

You mean the guys who push tin in and out of the three major NY airports and 5 busy satellite fields can handle VFR aircraft just fine, but the C90 guys can't take the heat? BS.

N90'll let me fly just about anywhere I want at the altitude of their choosing (down the Hudson river at 2,000 feet, over JFK at 5,000 feet, etc) and is a normal operating practice for them. Why C90 folks can't integrate this into their every day operations, I haven't the slightest clue.

Amen. I cut my VFR teeth flying in, under and around the NYC Class B, and although those controllers don't "take no mess" as James Brown used to say, they have never given me the feeling that I was unworthy.It's all just more traffic to them, it seems. Somebody must have a "No Whining" sign up on the wall at the center.

Only request I've ever been denied was to transition low across the JFK approaches once (by JFK tower after the handoff), and all they asked was for me to stay below the shelf and report passing the monument at Jones Beach.

Mind you, I rarely bother them with requests... which leads to another point: most of us "Little Indians" know to avoid cluttering up controlled airspaces unless we need to go where the big boys are flying.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Amen. I cut my VFR teeth flying in, under and around the NYC Class B, and although those controllers don't "take no mess" as James Brown used to say, they have never given me the feeling that I was unworthy.It's all just more traffic to them, it seems. Somebody must have a "No Whining" sign up on the wall at the center.

Only request I've ever been denied was to transition low across the JFK approaches once (by JFK tower after the handoff), and all they asked was for me to stay below the shelf and report passing the monument at Jones Beach.

Mind you, I rarely bother them with requests... which leads to another point: most of us "Little Indians" know to avoid cluttering up controlled airspaces unless we need to go where the big boys are flying.

Haven't seen a "No Whining" sign, but there is a "Good List" with 20 tail numbers written in Sharpie behind the flight strip holder bay in the JFK area. Rarely does Kennedy tower permit anything besides VFR below the Bravo (below 500 feet) south along the southern LI shore, so that's pretty normal.

The N90 guys and gals treat us pilots that sound like we know what we're doing on the frequency with the utmost respect and service, and it pays dividends. Despite the NY attitude, they have always provided excellent service throughout my flying here. They have a 'macho' attitude in that a VFR is just another blip they've been trained to handle, so they do, and they do a swell job doing it.

 

[bbchien]

So you see, everything I have written about C90 is true.
Where the heck is ogogog when you need him?

 

[sba55]

12 million people in metropolitan area and they should go somewhere else. HE needs to go work doing something else.

Seriously, I don't think I would have had a particularly nice response to that statement. What part of first come first serve doesn't he understand? Why is there more liability involved for _him personally_ in regards to small planes? It's not his job to do liability management for the FAA.

With that sort of attitude, I'm not surprised that C90 has a bad reputation. When I asked similar questions at the local Tracon here, I get answers along the lines of "yes, call us anytime, even if we're busy - we'd rather talk to you" and "we're committed to providing class C airspace service within all of our service area". Wow.

-Felix

 

[gprellwitz]

Seriously, I don't think I would have had a particularly nice response to that statement. What part of first come first serve doesn't he understand? Why is there more liability involved for _him personally_ in regards to small planes? It's not his job to do liability management for the FAA.

-Felix

He made a comment about being metaphorically taken out to the parking lot and shot in the back of the head if he had a strip on one of the VFR planes, failed to make the proper calls, and had something happen. So it sounded like he was more concerned about personal liability. I believe he was manager level, not an actual controller, though, so I'm not sure how well that argument holds up. Not 100% sure about this, though. I've asked another GA pilot who was there with me to review this and correct any inaccuracies.

 

[sba55]

He made a comment about being metaphorically taken out to the parking lot and shot in the back of the head if he had a strip on one of the VFR planes, failed to make the proper calls, and had something happen. So it sounded like he was more concerned about personal liability. I believe he was manager level, not an actual controller, though, so I'm not sure how well that argument holds up. Not 100% sure about this, though. I've asked another GA pilot who was there with me to review this and correct any inaccuracies.

Grant,

It's an interesting argument. I wonder why he thinks that he can't provide services to certain aviation users, yet all the other Tracons can.

Anyways, great report, thanks!

-Felix

 

[gprellwitz]

Grant,

It's an interesting argument. I wonder why he thinks that he can't provide services to certain aviation users, yet all the other Tracons can.

Anyways, great report, thanks!

-Felix

You're welcome. I've got my reporter's hat on and am trying to keep editorializing to a minimum. :yinyang:

 

[RMCN172RG]

Dave said that he used to be in Phoenix, and that they were set up to deal with it there, with VFR corridors and everything, but that Chicago just isn't set up to be able to handle it. He said that he doesn't have enough personnel to be able to handle all the sectors that would be required. I have no idea what their relative staffing levels are.

There is a VFR Flyway chart on the back of the Chicago TAC just like in Phoenix.

Sounds like the I need newer equipment and more people argument to me.

 

[mikea]

There is a VFR Flyway chart on the back of the Chicago TAC just like in Phoenix.

Sounds like the I need newer equipment and more people argument to me.

Sure. The difference is that the radios work for planes using the flyway in Phoenix.

The issue is not that those crazy planes are zigzagging willy-nilly all around O'Hare, it's that C90 doesn't want them anywhere within 50 miles of Chicago. See the above.

 

[ScottM]

So you see, everything I have written about C90 is true.
Where the heck is ogogog when you need him?

Egypt I think, sailing 'Denial'

 

[gprellwitz]

There is a VFR Flyway chart on the back of the Chicago TAC just like in Phoenix.

Sounds like the I need newer equipment and more people argument to me.

Note that Phoenix has a Class B controlled transition route right through the middle of the airspace. Chicago doesn't have anything comparable. Neither has what I've seen elsewhere, a class B VFR corridor (different than a Flyway), which is a defined tunnel through Class B airspace that's VFR.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Neither has what I've seen elsewhere, a class B VFR corridor (different than a Flyway), which is a defined tunnel through Class B airspace that's VFR.

Hey, we have one of those here in Houston!

 

[scit106]

I was also there with Grant and was listening in on the conversation. It sounded like a major factor was the staffing. My understanding was that the vfr advisory frequencies are staffed by the new guys until they move up, and its not important enough to get some of their limited staff on the position.

However, I was surprised how honest they were about it.

Also, being the youngest one there, they tried to recruit me... I can see what they mean about staffing.

 

[sba55]

I was also there with Grant and was listening in on the conversation. It sounded like a major factor was the staffing. My understanding was that the vfr advisory frequencies are staffed by the new guys until they move up, and its not important enough to get some of their limited staff on the position.

However, I was surprised how honest they were about it.

Also, being the youngest one there, they tried to recruit me... I can see what they mean about staffing.

I think it's telling that they have "VFR frequencies" to begin with. Why have different kinds of frequencies?

It sounds like it's a system set up specifically to allow the sort of discrimination against VFR GA that they're engaged in.

-Felix

 

[gprellwitz]

I was also there with Grant and was listening in on the conversation. It sounded like a major factor was the staffing. My understanding was that the vfr advisory frequencies are staffed by the new guys until they move up, and its not important enough to get some of their limited staff on the position.

However, I was surprised how honest they were about it.

Also, being the youngest one there, they tried to recruit me... I can see what they mean about staffing.

Scott, welcome to the board!

When I sent a letter to the district manager of C90, I thanked her for Dave's forthrightness.

 

[mdreger]

Well the good news is last weekend the VFR position, 126.8, at C90 was indeed open and working aircraft. Maybe they will continue to staff this position if they get enough traffic. Tell everyone to call and demonstrate a demand for the VFR service. That won't guarantee it being opened more often, but I'd bet that if it got few or no VFR's calling they would be less likely to continue staffing it.

We've had discussions about C90 before. I can only guess why C90 doesn't work VFR traffic. Few journeymen controllers have been willing to bid on C90 since September 2006 when the FAA imposed new work rules and a new (approx 30% lower) pay scale on us. Many controllers would not get a pay raise to work at C90 (or any of the larger TRACON's or Centers for that matter). Meanwhile, there are many controllers retiring from C90 (as well as the rest of the FAA) as a result, I understand the staffing levels at C90 (and many other FAA facilities) have decreased significantly.

I'll also remind you that MDW will generally provide advisories within 20 miles or so of MDW, including the lake shore. The same applies here. The more aircraft that call us, the more likely it is that we will staff that position. If no one calls, we generally combine it with the tower position.

As for a VFR corridor over ORD. I wouldn't think that is very likely. There just doesn't seem to me to be a path over ORD that would always be available for overflights and not conflict with their arrivals and/or departures.


As I've also said before. Coming on the internet and whining to each other isn't going to change anything. The FAA is spending a lot of time and OUR money spewing a bunch of rhetoric about being operated like a business, serving customers, and the like. Well, the customers (that's you, I, the airlines, and any fliers) need to let them know when they aren't providing the promised, or expected services. Having said that they are not likely to listen to the POA C90 bashing society. I would respectfully suggest that AOPA (I presume you all are AOPA members) be contacted and given the information and have them bring it to the attention of the Customer Service department (or whatever they call it) of the FAA. You can bet that if/when the airlines get less than whatever service THEY think they are entitled, they're on the horn to some muckety muck office dweller in the FAA getting their problem addressed.

 

[gprellwitz]

Well the good news is last weekend the VFR position, 126.8, at C90 was indeed open and working aircraft. Maybe they will continue to staff this position if they get enough traffic. Tell everyone to call and demonstrate a demand for the VFR service. That won't guarantee it being opened more often, but I'd bet that if it got few or no VFR's calling they would be less likely to continue staffing it.

We've had discussions about C90 before. I can only guess why C90 doesn't work VFR traffic. Few journeymen controllers have been willing to bid on C90 since September 2006 when the FAA imposed new work rules and a new (approx 30% lower) pay scale on us. Many controllers would not get a pay raise to work at C90 (or any of the larger TRACON's or Centers for that matter). Meanwhile, there are many controllers retiring from C90 (as well as the rest of the FAA) as a result, I understand the staffing levels at C90 (and many other FAA facilities) have decreased significantly.

I'll also remind you that MDW will generally provide advisories within 20 miles or so of MDW, including the lake shore. The same applies here. The more aircraft that call us, the more likely it is that we will staff that position. If no one calls, we generally combine it with the tower position.

As for a VFR corridor over ORD. I wouldn't think that is very likely. There just doesn't seem to me to be a path over ORD that would always be available for overflights and not conflict with their arrivals and/or departures.


As I've also said before. Coming on the internet and whining to each other isn't going to change anything. The FAA is spending a lot of time and OUR money spewing a bunch of rhetoric about being operated like a business, serving customers, and the like. Well, the customers (that's you, I, the airlines, and any fliers) need to let them know when they aren't providing the promised, or expected services. Having said that they are not likely to listen to the POA C90 bashing society. I would respectfully suggest that AOPA (I presume you all are AOPA members) be contacted and given the information and have them bring it to the attention of the Customer Service department (or whatever they call it) of the FAA. You can bet that if/when the airlines get less than whatever service THEY think they are entitled, they're on the horn to some muckety muck office dweller in the FAA getting their problem addressed.

Mike, thanks for the input! As I mentioned, I had the chance to talk face to face with Ms. Linnane, the district manager of C90 on Wednesday. I told her straight out that many GA pilots had stopped even calling because they're so used to being ignored. And it's partly in an effort to get more people calling in that I mentioned that they were, for now, at least, providing more staffing on the VFR frequency. I'll also be taking advantage of the customer survey provided to the attendees of the symposium to express my concerns.

As far as a VFR corridor, I agree that it's unlikely. However, if 14L at ORD is removed as per the proposal, I think it's at least more feasible. The main problems to that then become your own MDW to the south and PWK to the north. However, I don't see that there would be a problem avoiding them with a corridor.

And, as I expressed to her, I understand that their focus is on the airline traffic into ORD. They're the ones that drive all the decisions around here, and with some justification. That doesn't mean, however, that GA should be totally ignored or put in the bottom drawer in the closet, as appears to have happened.

Even when they discuss GA, it's in the context of business, as in the Chicago Area Business Aviation Association at www.cabaa.com. While thay have some interest in the low and slow crowd, for the most part they seem to me to be geared toward the corporate jets. They're not the ones interested in VFR services!

 

[955]

Forgive me for jumping in late here - I read the entire thread and maybe I missed something.

Is C90 Chicago Approach, center, or what?

When do they expect us to use the VFR frequency? What area?

I attended an AOPA seminar a year or two ago where Chicago Approach was represented and it was fascinating. Finally learned why I have to file SIMMN when I go to JVL...and BAE when I go to Watertown....

Great info in here - and another reminder why doing practice approaches up in Milwaukee's airspace is always easier....

 

[ScottM]

Forgive me for jumping in late here - I read the entire thread and maybe I missed something.

Is C90 Chicago Approach, center, or what?

C90 is Chi-App. Thems is the guys in Elgin that would be giving you FF around the Class B for Chicago.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I attended an AOPA seminar a year or two ago where Chicago Approach was represented and it was fascinating. Finally learned why I have to file SIMMN when I go to JVL...and BAE when I go to Watertown....

Can you expand on this? Where do you fly out of? I know the KELSI/SHOOF trick, but I'm guessing you're flying out of Chi-App airspace and going elsewhere?

 

[bbchien]

C90 is Chi-App. Thems is the guys in Elgin that would be giving you FF around the Class B for Chicago.

What? They actually do give FF other than around ARR??

 

[gprellwitz]

What? They actually do give FF other than around ARR??

Bruce, have you tried the 126.8 freq? They claim it's staffed a little more than it used to be, as described above. I haven't tried it to verify. In fact, it's not listed on the TAC at all; it's the frequency that Ms. Linnane, the district manager of C90 (Chicago Approach), gave me when we were talking.

 

[bbchien]

Which sector is it, Grant- N, or far west?

I got used to ignoring C90 because, (1) if IFR, they put you under the wedding cake and don't separate you form the VFRs.....because they don't have to. So they whiz by uncomfortably close; (safety, huh?!) and (2) If VFR they've never offered me 126.8, even last month...on the ONE day it WAS VFR. I just got dumped north of ARR. "Squawk 1200, good day".

So I've become a Mode S and eyeball kinda guy in that space. The ONLY place I would feel safe, given the VFR traffic below 1900 (5-10 nm) and below 2900 (to 15 nm) would be IN the wedding cake. C90's excluding VFRs has created a russian roulette scneario below tiers 2 and 3 of the Bravo.

 

[gprellwitz]

Which sector is it, Grant- N, or far west?

She said it like it was for the entire area. So I don't know. Since they probably have no more than one person staffing VFR anyway, that makes sense!

 

[mdreger]

126.8 is the VFR "sector". It is only open for VFR aircraft flying around the CBA, that is, it doesn't work IFR aircraft AFAIK. I've rarely seen it open. Mostly around OSH time.

However.


As noted above, it was open both days of the weekend of 23-24 Feb. when the weather was nice. Also noted above by Grant, they are starting rumors that it will be open more often. I have no idea how often it will be open in the future. I have successfully handed off VFR's to the South Satellite sectors quite a bit more often than not. As a matter if fact I don't remember the last time C90 declined to take a VFR hand off.

 

[gprellwitz]

126.8 is the VFR "sector". It is only open for VFR aircraft flying around the CBA, that is, it doesn't work IFR aircraft AFAIK. I've rarely seen it open. Mostly around OSH time.

However.


As noted above, it was open both days of the weekend of 23-24 Feb. when the weather was nice. Also noted above by Grant, they are starting rumors that it will be open more often. I have no idea how often it will be open in the future. I have successfully handed off VFR's to the South Satellite sectors quite a bit more often than not. As a matter if fact I don't remember the last time C90 declined to take a VFR hand off.

Mike, that's encouraging news. I'm sure you'll understand a wait and see attitude, though

 

[ScottM]

I'll be talking to Mike's are this weekend, but I might try the 126.8, I guess I am an optimist.

 

[SCCutler]

Man, I guess I need to thank my lucky stars for the professional controllers here at Regional Approach, who seem to handle air traffic in an also-extremely-busy terminal area with skill, grace and the occasional touch of good humor.

 

[gprellwitz]

Got this today

Whether or not you were able to attend the symposium, we would like to
inform you that all of the presentation materials are now available at:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/artcc/chicago/sympo
sium/recap/

If you did attend and have not yet completed our survey, please take a
moment to do so at:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/artcc/chicago/sympo
sium/survey/

It is our hope that the interaction the symposium provides, along with this
type of material, will foster a safer and more efficient air traffic system
in the Chicago area through better informed customers and ATC providers.
We appreciate your participation and look forward to our future
interaction.

At the bottom of the linked website is this statement:
If you attended the symposium, or if you are a user of air traffic control services from Chicago Center, Chicago TRACON or O'Hare Tower, please take a moment to complete our Chicago Area Customer Service Survey. [link above]

 

[mikea]

Got this today

At the bottom of the linked website is this statement:
If you attended the symposium, or if you are a user of air traffic control services from Chicago Center, Chicago TRACON or O'Hare Tower, please take a moment to complete our Chicago Area Customer Service Survey. [link above]

That's been there Grant. We never knew what to supply for the box where it asks what airline you fly for.