Cherokee down near Cable airport, California

If he was going from CCB to RAL or RIR, and went down in San Antonio Heights, he may have been trying to thread the very tight needle between the mountains and the north side of the ONT Class C surface area in the pre-dawn darkness.

CCB-RAL_zps9kpwsemn.jpg
 
CFIT just to avoid Charley airspace? I hope not
 
Yeah, I thought CFIT too, as it looks like a pre-dawn flight. The pilot crashed uphill into the mountain; had he seen the terrain, I'm sure he would've turned to avoid it.

That area between the mountains and Ontario's Class C is more generous than it looks on the chart, but it does get a lot tighter at night. A simple GPS rig could've been a life-saver here.
 
Or just taking to tower and transitioning the C.

Used to fly down that way a bit, don't recall anything crazy about dealing with that airspace
 
If he went missing between 4 and 5 am ...

KONT 221253Z 36004KT 9SM SCT014 09/09 A3008
KONT 221249Z 36004KT 10SM BKN014 11/09 A3008
KONT 221242Z 35003KT 10SM BKN015 10/09 A3008​
 
Pilawt said:
If he went missing between 4 and 5 am ...

KONT 221253Z 36004KT 9SM SCT014 09/09 A3008
KONT 221249Z 36004KT 10SM BKN014 11/09 A3008
KONT 221242Z 35003KT 10SM BKN015 10/09 A3008​
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That's a ceiling at ~2500 MSL. What altitude did this guy crash at? Those are BIG mountains.
 
James331 said:
Or just taking to tower and transitioning the C.

Used to fly down that way a bit, don't recall anything crazy about dealing with that airspace
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The folks in the tower at ONT are great and super helpful. We used the airport there for some landings a couple times while I was doing my PPL training and even went there during my checkride. Once they let us do a touch n go on 26R followed by a simulated engine failure and turning around to land 8R, then after the touch n go on 8R we immediately turned and came back to land 26L. Can't imagine why he wouldn't just talk to them... I have yet to run into a controller that wasn't helpful.
 
Skates97 said:
The folks in the tower at ONT are great and super helpful. We used the airport there for some landings a couple times while I was doing my PPL training and even went there during my checkride. Once they let us do a touch n go on 26R followed by a simulated engine failure and turning around to land 8R, then after the touch n go on 8R we immediately turned and came back to land 26L. Can't imagine why he wouldn't just talk to them... I have yet to run into a controller that wasn't helpful.
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A few C's will not allow transitions from neighboring airports. No idea if this is one of them. I've been told to remain clear departing adjacent to Fresno, Portland OR, and Burbank. Not at Oakland or San Jose, though.

More recently, I've been getting a hell of a lot of vectors crossing San Jose; formerly the most I'd get is a midfield-crossing altitude. Something changed recently.
 
WTF??? The video had a fire chief telling reporters that the last known contact was with Ontario tower. He was already talking to Ontario, so why not transit their Charlie? Why fly away from the Charlie?? Please don't tell me they vectored him into a mountain!!
 
Cable airport in Upland is at approx. 1440' msl, and the terrain rises as you head north. It isn't really that tight to avoid the Ontario C airspace, and actually, they are easy to work with anytime of the day.

He must not have been familiar with the area if he was VFR. That route of flight is not part of the DP, if he was IFR.

You don't have a ton of time to make a turn on course if you depart to the north. You're not gonna out climb the rocks. Wonder if he got distracted or maybe worse, S------ by plane.
frown.gif
 
Dav8or said:
WTF??? The video had a fire chief telling reporters that the last known contact was with Ontario tower. He was already talking to Ontario, so why not transit their Charlie? Why fly away from the Charlie?? Please don't tell me they vectored him into a mountain!!
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Unless the contact was "Cessna 123XY remain clear of Class C."

Going around to the south would seem a whole lot safer.
 
MAKG1 said:
Going around to the south would seem a whole lot safer.
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Maybe not:

KCNO 221353Z AUTO 00000KT 2SM BR CLR 09/08 A3011
KCNO 221345Z AUTO 00000KT 2SM BR FEW009 08/08 A3011
KCNO 221328Z AUTO 30003KT 1 1/4SM BR FEW011 08/08 A3011
KCNO 221325Z AUTO 00000KT 1/2SM FG VV010 08/07 A3011
KCNO 221317Z AUTO 28003KT 1/2SM FG VV009 08/08 A3011
KCNO 221302Z AUTO 00000KT 1 3/4SM BR FEW015 08/08 A3010
KCNO 221253Z AUTO 00000KT 3SM BR FEW012 08/08 A3010
KCNO 221250Z AUTO 00000KT 3SM BR FEW012 09/08 A3010
KCNO 221247Z AUTO 04003KT 1 1/4SM BR SCT012 09/09 A3010
KCNO 221235Z AUTO 00000KT 3/4SM BR VV010 08/07 A3010
KCNO 221229Z AUTO 00000KT 1/2SM FG VV010 08/07 A3010​

POC and RAL were clear; CNO was socked in; and ONT was marginal. Not a good time to be poking around in the dark VFR.
 
It's hard to say. You can usually overfly fog without any trouble. Mist, well that depends on how high it goes.
 
Saw this on TV early this morning. Made me ill.

Not sure what happend. Cable's departure instructions call for a left turn toward Class C airspace before Claremont College, another left over the field and turns either east or west once clear of the runway to your destination. I wonder if there was spatial disorientation that occurred in the pre-dawn darkness given those instructions.

http://cableairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/rules-regulations-.web_.pdf

RIP pilot.
 
I wonder if Ontario was actually talking to the pilot, or if the "contact" was simply seeing him on radar. It'd sure be a helpless feeling for the controller to see him heading for the mountain with no way to reach him.
 
I was based there for a few years. Flew many IFR departures.

You contact ONT CD for clearance and release. Usual clearance is to fly the CCB DP, climb, contact SoCal 125.5 if westbound (departing 24), or 127.25 if eastbound (departing 6).

Sometimes, it can be difficult to pick up ONT CD clearly on the plane's radio while on the ground (when you would pick up the clearance and release), but then they have a phone number to call if you can't read their radio transmissions.

He may not have dialed in PDZ VOR (part of the DP, takes you to the SE and away from the mtns) correctly and continued turn towards mtns, but should have had plenty of time to adjust and get SA.

Sometimes, at CCB, the clouds can give VFR departure holes, but you can never forget the mtns. This one is a head scratcher since he was based there.

Not sure why whoever he was talking to, didn't warn him, unless he decided to depart VFR and skipped the comms thinking he could avoid the "C".
 
Typically, once you cross the field going North, you pick up the 210 and keep it on your right wing.

I wonder how familiar he was with Cable....it's a pretty easy field despite the locations and the mountains aren't a factor if you hug the 210.

They are intimidating as f though.


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It was stated that he had over 4000 hr, and that he was going to Riverside to start training as a traffic reporter in the air for an AM radio station.. Bad deal all around. I have flown out of Cable a lot, finished up my flight training there and the departure to the north to over the dam is normal, then turning east or west.. It was not the clearest that morning, some mist... I live 15 miles to the west, and drive past Cable every day going and coming to work... It can be clear in patches and look inviting only to close up and be a problem... Not sure what happened here, still not good.
 
The other possibility is, the news said he was 60. Maybe he was incapacitated and the plane just flew straight ahead. NTSB will let us know on that score.
 
All kinds of possible reasons. One to add to the list and a reminder of something to think about. Inadvertently flying into IMC. Clouds can be hard to see at night
 
He had an open IFR flight plan - no reason to avoid the C.

mostly likely for me - where I've pontificated enough on this at the Red Board [where the crash was less a mile from house] was:

Opened a IFR flight plan
he announced departing 24 -
then announced departing pattern to the north

he simply flew the VFR noise abatement departure instead of the ODP - we don't know what he was cleared for yet - and flew into mountains.

I have not heard the CD from ONT yet - but gouge is he never checked in with ONT Tower - maybe ONT was busy with a push at 4am from UPs/FedEx - and he could not get a word in edgewise - but the IFR departure is not toward the mountains.
 
I keep coming back to this...a cheap GPS unit would've kept him off that mountain, regardless of any radio communication he did or didn't have, or which direction he departed, or what procedure he followed.
Very easy to avoid Class C if you want to. Hug the north edge of Ontario's space and that puts you well clear of terrain.
 
That gap is fairly comfortable between the edge of the Charlie and any real terrain. If you're flying directly north you're going to run out of AGL pretty quickly at 100 knots but if you're just trying to avoid the charlie, it's a few seconds till you cross the 210 and just keep that off your right wing and you're fine. Very very weird.
 
Pilawt said:
POC and RAL were clear; CNO was socked in; and ONT was marginal. Not a good time to be poking around in the dark VFR.
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I'll tell ya what I told everyone on the Red Board - I live less than a mile from the crash site - and about 3 miles from Cable in the foothills at 2100'. . .

That morning dawned clear above 2000 - the top of the marine layer was low - right at 2000. Cable is at 1444 - once he climbed to pattern altitude he was above anything scattered below. I recall that morning because the news and Sheriff's helos over my house waking everyone up at 545a as soon as it got light.

Not much chance of needed instruments - I could see the Pomona Valley from my house - and a few low clouds down Chino way - but up here it was definitely decent VFR weather with at most a few clouds to 2000 . . . I saw them below me when it got full light
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
I keep coming back to this...a cheap GPS unit would've kept him off that mountain, regardless of any radio communication he did or didn't have, or which direction he departed, or what procedure he followed.
Very easy to avoid Class C if you want to. Hug the north edge of Ontario's space and that puts you well clear of terrain.
Click to expand...
Maybe... but under the conditions given, probably not.

How would a GPS solve his problem if, say, he had a heart attack or CO poisoning with the autopilot on and pointed north? How would it solve disorientation? Having a GPS on your lap can cause that....and it can also cause fixation.

Still too early to tell. And a GPS can help some things, but it is not a pure good. There are costs as well. They have little place in an airport traffic pattern, and only a little more outside.

Now, a GPWS might have helped. Or not.
 
MAKG1 said:
Maybe... but under the conditions given, probably not.

How would a GPS solve his problem if, say, he had a heart attack or CO poisoning with the autopilot on and pointed north? How would it solve disorientation? Having a GPS on your lap can cause that....and it can also cause fixation.

Still too early to tell. And a GPS can help some things, but it is not a pure good. There are costs as well. They have little place in an airport traffic pattern, and only a little more outside.

Now, a GPWS might have helped. Or not.
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It's another tool...and a great one...to have in the toolbox. Easy situational (and locational) awareness on a screen in front of you. Very intuitive. Have you tried one?

I'd rather see my location, at a glance with my own eyes, than wait for someone to vector me away from a mountainside.

It goes without saying that if he was incapacitated, nothing would've helped.
 
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SoCal RV Flyer said:
It's another tool...and a great one...to have in the toolbox. Easy situational (and locational) awareness on a screen in front of you. Very intuitive. Have you tried one?

I'd rather see my location, at a glance with my own eyes, than wait for someone to vector me away from a mountainside.

It goes without saying that if he was incapacitated, nothing would've helped.
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Yes indeed, I've tried using a portable GPS, from the right and left seat, and also participated in crewed activities involving them. When used judiciously, they can help. They can also distract and disorient, and putting the face down in one's lap during unexpected IMC (especially at night) is one of those questionable times. That's not limited to portable GPSs, but those increase the system management tasks.

When the *$#@% is hitting the fan, you don't want to be using every tool in your toolbox at the same time. That's unmanageable. You have to prioritize tasks, and the absolute fastest way out of a lost situation close to the ground at night in IMC in a radar environment while in contact with Approach is to ask for a vector, as an emergency if necessary.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes indeed, I've tried using a portable GPS, from the right and left seat, and also participated in crewed activities involving them. When used judiciously, they can help. They can also distract and disorient, and putting the face down in one's lap during unexpected IMC (especially at night) is one of those questionable times.
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Yeah, lap-mounted GPS isn't optimal. I've got two panel-mounted units, one built into the EFIS with an 8.4-in display, and a second above the radio stack. The second one has two hours' battery life. With them front and center, you can see them in an instant.

MAKG1 said:
When the *$#@% is hitting the fan, you don't want to be using every tool in your toolbox at the same time. That's unmanageable. You have to prioritize tasks, and the absolute fastest way out of a lost situation close to the ground at night in IMC in a radar environment while in contact with Approach is to ask for a vector, as an emergency if necessary.
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I'm all for vectors too, when in radio contact. But was he in radio contact? With the GPS, assuming it's on and functioning, a 3-second glance will tell you if you're headed toward the mountain or away from it. If I was in the thick soup and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up because of perceived proximity to terrain...and I mean an imminent, right-now threat...my tools of choice are artificial horizon and GPS.

I just hope the poor guy didn't suffer.
 
Basically, if you are flying in IMC in this day and age with no GPS, you're just not all that bright. GPS is cheap, accessible, it's easy and it's 100x more accurate than the tech before it. No excuses for not having it other than total ignorance, or bullheaded machismo.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Yeah, lap-mounted GPS isn't optimal. I've got two panel-mounted units, one built into the EFIS with an 8.4-in display, and a second above the radio stack. The second one has two hours' battery life. With them front and center, you can see them in an instant.



I'm all for vectors too, when in radio contact. But was he in radio contact? With the GPS, assuming it's on and functioning, a 3-second glance will tell you if you're headed toward the mountain or away from it. If I was in the thick soup and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up because of perceived proximity to terrain...and I mean an imminent, right-now threat...my tools of choice are artificial horizon and GPS.

I just hope the poor guy didn't suffer.
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Yes, he was known to be in contact with Ontario.

CFIT accidents are quick. Very unlikely he suffered, or even knew what hit him.

Are you instrument qualified? If you're having trouble, it's not a good idea to add more than you have to to your scan. The AI is already in it unless it's broken (it happens). Vectors don't change the scan. Fiddling with a GPS does.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, he was known to be in contact with Ontario.

CFIT accidents are quick. Very unlikely he suffered, or even knew what hit him.

Are you instrument qualified? If you're having trouble, it's not a good idea to add more than you have to to your scan. The AI is already in it unless it's broken (it happens). Vectors don't change the scan. Fiddling with a GPS does.
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Hey - do you have a source for 'known to be in contact with ONT?" I had not seen that yet -

Also - He wasn't in IMC. He might have been in pitch black no horizon reference - same thing.
 
Dav8or said:
Basically, if you are flying in IMC in this day and age with no GPS, you're just not all that bright. GPS is cheap, accessible, it's easy and it's 100x more accurate than the tech before it. No excuses for not having it other than total ignorance, or bullheaded machismo.
Click to expand...

GPS IS NOT required to operate safely in the IFR world. There are many pilots using VORs for navigation safely and they are probably bright pilots too. Total ignorance/bullheaded? Really? What if you're flying for a company that doesn't have GPS, just VORs, on their planes? Here you go, I'll give you an example. I flew the EMB120 Brasilia for 10,000 hours and the ATR-72 for about 2,000 hours, both equipped with VORs, as a regional airline pilot. So you're saying I was stubborn and not that bright?

Now GPS is nice to have, not debating that at all. But not having a GPS does not mean you're flying unsafe under VFR or IFR either.
 
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mscard88 said:
GPS IS NOT required to operate safely in the IFR world. There are many pilots using VORs for navigation safely and they are probably bright pilots too. Total ignorance/bullheaded? Really? What if you're flying for a company that doesn't have GPS, just VORs, on the plane? Here you go, I'll give you an example. I flew the EMB120 Brasilia for 10,000 hours and the ATR-72 for about 2,000 hours, both equipped with VORs, as a regional airline pilot. So you're saying I was stubborn and not that bright?

Now GPS is nice to have, not debating that at all. But not having a GPS does not mean you're flying unsafe under VFR or IFR either.
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I'm going to fly a CAP plane tomorrow whose GPS has blown up. Does that make me "bullheaded?" It's also the tow plane, and it's going to the glider base. Maybe we should just cancel the glider activities because I might get lost on a 20 minute flight without the GPS.... Jeez, some people. If you can't navigate safely and efficiently without a GPS even in IMC, you have no business flying.

You use the equipment you have.

I predict the flights will go exactly the same as they would with a GPS, just with a lot less button pushing.
 
comanchepilot said:
Hey - do you have a source for 'known to be in contact with ONT?" I had not seen that yet -
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That was my thought too. "In contact with Ontario" could mean radar contact, not radio contact. I haven't read anywhere that he was talking to the controller. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, maybe someone can post something definitive. If he was talking with them, they'd issue a quick vector and hopefully he'd arrive at Riverside and start his training as a news-radio traffic reporter.

MAKG1, you can do plenty of things safely in an aircraft without GPS. But in this particular situation, if he wasn't talking to the tower/ATC and not incapacitated, the GPS could've been a life-saver. No fiddling or button-pushing required if it's on and right in front of you...just a quick glance. I know I'm a safer pilot because of it.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm going to fly a CAP plane tomorrow whose GPS has blown up. Does that make me "bullheaded?" It's also the tow plane, and it's going to the glider base. Maybe we should just cancel the glider activities because I might get lost on a 20 minute flight without the GPS.... Jeez, some people. If you can't navigate safely and efficiently without a GPS even in IMC, you have no business flying.

You use the equipment you have.

I predict the flights will go exactly the same as they would with a GPS, just with a lot less button pushing.
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Is that directed at me? Think you have the wrong person cause what I wrote agrees with what you wrote. I was responding to post #30.
 
This one just floors me. Maybe someday someone will invent a flight data recorder that tracks a pilot's thoughts; until then, accidents like this will just go unexplained.

There has been discussion on here about the ODP, about GPS, about autopilots and heading bugs. It ain't that complicated. IFR from CCB, turn LEFT if departing rwy 24; turn RIGHT if departing 6. That's to the south, folks. That's downhill. That's away from two-mile-high rocks and toward lights. Though it was about 25 years ago, I remember departing CCB IFR. I remember being spring-loaded to start that southbound turn, and viscerally wanting to do so ASAP, 'cuz I knew what it looked like in the clear.

Did he forget which runway he was departing from? If you've been there, and especially if you were as familiar with the airport and its environs as he was reported to be, you'd find that even harder to comprehend. Runway 24 is a 1.3% slope downhill. The distinctive terminal building is on the south side. The landscape to the east of the runway is nothing like it is in the other direction. You can readily orient yourself, even if you can't see the immense wall of mountains three miles north of the airport.

Of course I'm thinking about this sitting here warm and comfy at a desk with a cup of hot lemon ginger tea ...

Whatever the cause(s), RIP.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
That was my thought too. "In contact with Ontario" could mean radar contact, not radio contact. I haven't read anywhere that he was talking to the controller. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, maybe someone can post something definitive. If he was talking with them, they'd issue a quick vector and hopefully he'd arrive at Riverside and start his training as a news-radio traffic reporter.

MAKG1, you can do plenty of things safely in an aircraft without GPS. But in this particular situation, if he wasn't talking to the tower/ATC and not incapacitated, the GPS could've been a life-saver. No fiddling or button-pushing required if it's on and right in front of you...just a quick glance. I know I'm a safer pilot because of it.
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It was a claim from one of the videos. Maybe it was wrong, but it rather strongly suggests this wasn't just a simple case of "I'm lost."

Though I suppose it could be one of those toy tablet GPSs giving a wrong answer, as they occasionally do. No evidence for that either way in this case.
 
We were taught to fly using VOR's, pilotage, and ground reference. I use FF on an iPad, strapped to my leg, so that I can easily fly any of my FBO's rental equipment and not worry about what technology it does or doesn't have. I have FF on my iphone as a backup, and paper charts in my bag as a backup to that. I also keep a spare headset as backup, and battery packs to keep things charged, as my rescue flights are usually 4 to 5 hours in length round trip.

I occasionally tune in VOR's for reference, and still use pilotage / dead reckoning to this day. I love FF however have realized I've become uncomfortably reliant on it, and find myself jilted in the summer when it occasionally overheats. Nothing beats the old school methods that I learned on, just my opinion.
 
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