Cherokee 180 or Sundowner

Ronnie Godfrey

Ronnie Godfrey

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Ronnie Godfrey
I know there are about a million threads on this topic, but this one is about specific aircraft. My partner and I are completely torn about which one to pursue. We are both first time buyers and want to make sure we get it right the first time.

My mission: time building, IFR training, occasional trips of <650 nm. No kids, just a wife.
His mission: PPL training, occasional trips of <650 nm. Wife and two kids, aged 6 and 2.

The Cherokee:
1964, ~3,000 total time, 137 SMOH, new prop about 20 hours ago as a result of prop strike. Engine work completed and logged. One Nav radio with loc and GS, Garmin 396, poor audio panel, guaranteed money spent on avionics. Paint and interior are okay. Price is $36,500

The Sundowner:
1981, 1350 TT, same on original engine. Engine torn down and rebuilt a few years ago, but not overhauled. Complete IFR avionics with Garmin 420W, KS80, dual Loc and GS, TKM CDI for GPS with GS. Really nice paint and interior. Price is $42,000.

We are very risk averse when it comes to dropping money on an engine overhaul and that's why we are hesitant on the Sundowner. If it was an 800 hour engine, it'd be a no-brainer. Which one would you go with and why or why not?
 
I'd probably go Sundowner, but that's just because I'm a Beech fan. Parts will be a lot easier to find for the Cherokee, and any A&P knows a Cherokee. IMO....wait for a plane to pop up that has everything you want, and don't limit yourself to those two.
 
Ronnie Godfrey said:
I think they just cleaned and rebuilt it. The plane supposedly sat for a few years and then a mechanic bought it for himself.
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Sounds like camshaft and/or cylinder corrosion was found after the plane sat?

I'm a Piper fan, but in this case the Beech looks the more attractive buy at first, superficial glance.

There's a bunch of other info needed to make a sound decision. Are both planes being flown regularly? After a prop strike or a so-called "re-built" I like to see 100 hours in the previous 12-18 months after the repairs. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.
 
GRG55 said:
Sounds like camshaft and/or cylinder corrosion was found after the plane sat?

I'm a Piper fan, but in this case the Beech looks the more attractive but at first, superficial glance.

There's a bunch of other info needed to make a sound decision. Are both planes being flown regularly? After a prop strike or a so-called "re-built" I like to see 100 hours in the previous 12-18 months after the repairs. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.
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The 180 hasn't flown in about two months and the Sundowner has been used as an IFR and PPL trainer for both current owners so it has flown very regularly over the last few years.
 
$6k for an extra door might move me to the Beech.
 
Ronnie Godfrey said:
The 180 hasn't flown in about two months and the Sundowner has been used as an IFR and PPL trainer for both current owners so it has flown very regularly over the last few years.
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That's pretty good for both of them. It's airplanes that sit for a year or six that are problems.

The 180 is a great airplane, and measurably faster (at least 10 knots if rigged properly) than the Sundowner. But the Sundowner is the tougher, stronger airframe of the two and roomier, more comfortable inside (hence the slower speed on the same hp). Also, you won't be able to upgrade the 180 panel to compare with the Beech for the price difference. Fly them both before deciding.
 
If you're on the fence join the Beech Aero Club and get a copy of the pre-buy document for items you need to look for PRIOR to purchase.

http://www.beechaeroclub.org/content.php

A member may be able to provide info on the aircraft you are looking at. Good luck with the search.

I own a 1980 Sundowner.
 
Thanks for all the input so far! I think our ultimate dilemma is this: guaranteed money spent on avionics, or possible money spent on an overhaul. It's worth mentioning that we have already scheduled a pre-buy for the 180 and the Sundowner just came to our attention yesterday. So basically we'd be backing out.
 
I personally would lean towards the Beech. Either is fine for your missions. Beech avionics a plus and then it's a very roomy cabin and two doors. But either would work.
 
I say Piper but you can find a better one then that. You can find one in much better condition.
 
Along with others, I'm questioning how an engine can be "torn down and rebuilt" without it being an overhaul. As far as I ever knew that's literally an overhaul is. Was it a "top overhaul", just part of the engine torn down and rebuilt maybe? I would ask more questions about this if that's what you were told.

In general, without looking up specs on the models, I believe the Cherokee with be a couple kts faster than the Sundowner but not a lot. Maybe makes a small difference in cross country flight. The Cherokee is also a lot more common of an aircraft than the Sundowner. I would be confident that parts availability won't be an issue with a Cherokee and that any A&P would be familiar with it.

That said Beechcraft isn't exactly a no-name company and I doubt there's anything so weird in a sundowner that any competent A&P would have trouble with. I expect you'd still be able to find most parts for it as well but IDK if there might be a premium. The other nice thing is since the Sundowner isn't really in high demand you're probably getting a better deal on it.

Avionics are expensive, I can easily see you dropping $10,000... possible significantly more into the Cherokee panel depending on the installer and how much needs done to it. Also bear in mind for both of them, your first annual is probably going to be spendy.


So I'd get more info on the Sundowner's supposed non-overhaul overhaul. Maybe see if you can get a copy of that part of the logbook and people here can figure out what it actually means. If that passes the smell test I kind of lean towards the Sundowner just because the panel sounds ready to go.
 
My engine had a top overhaul. While in there they found some pitting so replaced the crank and cam shafts. Still listed as 900 hrs even though that was all done 33 hours ago.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My engine had a top overhaul. While in there they found some pitting so replaced the crank and cam shafts. Still listed as 900 hrs even though that was all done 33 hours ago.
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cowman said:
Along with others, I'm questioning how an engine can be "torn down and rebuilt" without it being an overhaul. As far as I ever knew that's literally an overhaul is. Was it a "top overhaul", just part of the engine torn down and rebuilt maybe? I would ask more questions about this if that's what you were told.
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its called an IRAN, inspect and repair as necessary. there are certain parts that must be replace to be called an overhaul. if one of those parts are not replaced, it cannot be called an overhaul. a prop strike is one thing that gets an IRAN from the insurance company, not an overhaul.

bob
 
two doors is a huge point for the Beech...I also find them a lot more comfortable than the Cherokee but that's personal opinion.
 
Having flown both, it all boils down to how much you want to spend to feed the li'l critter. The Cherokee eats less, and has a somewhat larger payload. The 'downer eats more, but has more room, and 2 doors.
Given the choice, I would take the 180 over the 23. Only reason being a tad faster on less fuel burn. Other than that, they both fly/handle about the same. The Cherokee may feel a bit lighter on the controls, But the 'Downer isn't a "truck" either, just a tad more "firm" on the controls.
Our '63 180 would routinely get 115 TAS at 2451 and 8.1gph. The 'Downer would get about 98 TAS at 2500, and 9.0 gph.
Insurance, and MX costs are about the same.
 
unsafervguy said:
its called an IRAN, inspect and repair as necessary. there are certain parts that must be replace to be called an overhaul. if one of those parts are not replaced, it cannot be called an overhaul. a prop strike is one thing that gets an IRAN from the insurance company, not an overhaul.

bob
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That makes sense I guess but it makes me wonder, is it really that much more to replace those parts while it's all open? I just always assumed with the labor involved that would be a no-brainer.
 
cowman said:
That makes sense I guess but it makes me wonder, is it really that much more to replace those parts while it's all open? I just always assumed with the labor involved that would be a no-brainer.
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it really depends on the situation. in the case of a low time engine with a prop strike, if the parts check out and are withing spec, replacing what is needed and putting it back together may be the way to go, but say, a bad cam on a 1500hr engine, i would just overhaul it.here is the SB that applies to lycomings.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defa...Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf
bob
 
All things being equal, I'd rather the Cherokee. Cheaper parts, a good 15 knots faster, and is just a good fixed gear airplane.

But apparently all things aren't equal here judging from the posts (Beech has a better panel?).
 
Between these two airplanes,I would go for the beech.
 
bluerooster said:
Having flown both, it all boils down to how much you want to spend to feed the li'l critter. The Cherokee eats less, and has a somewhat larger payload. The 'downer eats more, but has more room, and 2 doors.
Given the choice, I would take the 180 over the 23. Only reason being a tad faster on less fuel burn. Other than that, they both fly/handle about the same. The Cherokee may feel a bit lighter on the controls, But the 'Downer isn't a "truck" either, just a tad more "firm" on the controls.
Our '63 180 would routinely get 115 TAS at 2451 and 8.1gph. The 'Downer would get about 98 TAS at 2500, and 9.0 gph.
Insurance, and MX costs are about the same.
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I flew a cherokee 180 for a year or so. That's about as slow as I'd want to fly in anything I'd use for travelling, but that's 100% personal preference. The two doors would be awesome, though. Having spent years in a piper and now a mooney, the single door gets old.
 
cowman said:
That makes sense I guess but it makes me wonder, is it really that much more to replace those parts while it's all open? I just always assumed with the labor involved that would be a no-brainer.
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My guy was planning to sell the plane, and that is what the insurance company was going to pay.
He didn't think an overhaul would add much to the price for this entry level grumman. if it were me i would have done the same. If I were keeping it though I would go for the overhaul
 
I'm a PA-28-180 fan. I did my research before purchasing for training and thought the 180 was the best overall balance of performance and value in that class of planes. My other choice would have been a Grumman if one had been more readily available (I would have gone with the Grumman...), but a very suitable 180 pretty much fell in my lap when a fellow lost him medical.
 
The Sundowner. Two doors, more room, and slower. You did say that both of you are building time, right? When trying to build time, a C150 is a better option than a Citation, and the Sundowner, doing the same mission, will reward you with [slightly] more time in the saddle than the PA28.
 
Get the fastest plane you can afford. Your women will probably love you for it on those trips. And you'll love yourself for it when the kids are energetic.
 
Doors? I don't need them!

I'm partial to Grumman Tigers. If I want to go as fast as a Sundowner I can do it at about 7 gallons per hour, at Cherokee 180 speeds maybe a 1/2 gallon per hour more. But I can also burn 10-1/2 gallons per hour and fly faster than an Arrow and within a few knots of a C model Mooney. That is a lot of capability! Plus 900 lbs useful load, sliding canopy which can be left open for long hot summer climbs, and incredible visibility for training.

If you consider the cost of fuel you may find that a more efficient airframe operates cheaper, partially offsetting a bit higher purchase price. The Grumman Cheetah is a bit less expensive than the Tiger and is a 150 hp aircraft that will fly as fast or faster than the Cherokee 180 and on less fuel.

Between the choices offered by the OP, I would choose the Cherokee hands down. Dead simple, cheap maintenance that anyone can do, and easy to find parts. But best of all there are tons of speed mods out there for the airframe that can improve the efficiency of the aircraft to the point that it approaches that of a Grumman Tiger.
 
I've flown both, and based on your mission of time building and IFR, get the bird with the better IFR panel. Based on the first post, that would be the Beech. It's slow, stable and demands airspeed control on short final. You've got another 700hrs before TBO. Both of you should have your IFR before that runs out.
 
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