Cherokee 140 and a helluva story

Frogs97

Frogs97

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Frogs97
Some months ago, I posted this:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84975

Well, in that logbook was another Cherokee that was the first my father-in-law logged a flight, and also the one in which he passed his PPL check ride. That one is still flying and owned by a gentleman in WV. I sat on that information for awhile, and then last weekend, I just decided to write him a letter. Just a note ingroducing myself, explaining that I had a special interest in that plane and why, and that if he were to ever look to sell the plane, I would be interested in hearing about it. Friday I got a note from him saying that he and his wife had just decided to put it up for sale the week before last, and gave me the details and some pictures.

I'm a little floored about the way that has all played out, and the plane looks gorgeous with a recently redone paint job and upholstery. I wanted to see if I could get some imput from y'all about some other concerns.

I'm concerned about the O-320. I'm 6'1" and 250, my 2 sons combine for about 200lbs and growing, and my wife is smaller than average (she'd kill me if I were to go throwing her weight around). As a family we'd just fine in the Cherokee 180 we rent, but I'm concerned about the 140, especially on hot summer days. Thoughts there?

I was hoping it was going to have a runout engine, and I could do the 180hp STC, but it only has 190hrs. Is there any kind of market for low-time O-320s to offset the cost of a 180 upgrade?

Other than the new wood overlay, the panel is all original 1965 VFR. I want to use this for my instrument rating, too. Any idea what redoing the panel to get IFR certified and maybe a 430 in there might look like?

I know it would be cheaper to buy the plane with all this, but there is some serious sentimental elements at work. When I told my wife about the radios, and they were very possibly the radios her dad used in training ... it was very moving. So I want to make this happen.
 
Buy it and fly it and enjoy it, rent when you need the higher UL... you can trade up later if need be.

You'll regret it otherwise.
 
I have a lot of time in a 1967 Cherokee 140 with the 160hp engine. First let me say that The 140 is a fantastic plane! It is fun to fly, nothing fancy but fun. It is a simple as it gets in aviation. Although I now fly a Bonanza I still really love flying the Cherokee. That said it is not really a family aircraft for a growing family of 4. It would be great for you and your wife and one of your sons. As you sons grow however its going to get very tight in the back seat. In the hot Texas heat you can run out of useful load very quickly.

If however; the majority of your missions are going to be you an one other person then you are going to have a blast flying that plane.
 
You can do the W&B math. What PAFlyer said.

I put a lot of time in a 140 on 200 to 300 mile range business trips with myself and a co-worker (total weight about 485 lbs) and o'nite baggage (clean shirt and underwear and a few business papers). Any more weight would have been too much.
 
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I've flown a 140 quite a bit with a friend... I'm 5'10" 185 and he's 240 easy and if I had to guess about 5'7" so weight wise we got U beat. But u being 6'1 PLUS the kids.....it's gonna be tight, I'm not gonna sugar coat it. But it can be done. Maybe bring the kids when u go look at it, do a dry trial run. And good luck!!
 
You will hear the story's like buy you last plane first, you need a larger bird, that plane is too small etc.. I have a 140, it had 152hrs on the O-320.. We love this machine and it gets us everywhere we want.. And like others said rent when you need a larger bird.., we've never had the need in the last 2 yrs to rent anything..
 
Buy it and lose some weight. Enjoy life and flying.
 
The 180 conversion will get you a performance increase, but will actually reduce your payload, since you don't get a gross weight increase. Here is a discussion about it. http://www.piperforum.com/showthread.php?t=3060
I had a Cherokee 140 and it was a great plane, but is not great for a growing family of four. I wouldn't get too sentimental about a piece of metal. No good can come from it. Take some pictures and throw it in the family scrapbook, then buy the right plane for the mission.
 
You can buy wings, you can buy engines, but you can't buy memories. When it is a trip for four, rent. The kids will learn to fly in their grand-daddy's airplane. There is NOTHING in this world sweeter than that.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
You can buy wings, you can buy engines, but you can't buy memories. When it is a trip for four, rent. The kids will learn to fly in their grand-daddy's airplane. There is NOTHING in this world sweeter than that.

Jim
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Agree 100%. My first airplane ride and my first time on the "big" roller coaster were with my grandpa. Not to mention teaching me to fish and hunt, too. I'm thankful that I can remember these memories, because the Alzheimers didn't let him remember them.
 
Let me throw a monkey in the wrench...

Never allow 'sentiment' to make a multi-thousand dollar decision for you.

I suppose if youre one of those guys that has a pile of loose cash laying around, go for it. Otherwise, I dont know. Im 'sentimental. about a Piper Tomahawk because its the plane I first flew and solo'd 34 years ago, before I came back around and finished the PPL, but I'm not going out and buying s Tomahawk. Doesnt fit the mission. If the plane, minus the emotional attachment, fits the mission of your family, great, buy it. If not, dont.
 
In the summer, I'll only fly with one passenger in my 172 with a similarly sized engine. In the cooler temps, I'd take another person as the performance drastically improves. Two questions I would ask you are:

-How often are you really going to fly with your entire family? A couple times a year, then just rent something bigger when you need it. If it will 90% of the time be just you or you + 1, then it won't be an issue. Be true to yourself about your mission.

-Looks like you are in TX. If you plan on flying a lot fully loaded on very hot days, this might not be the plane for you. Again, hot days with a 1+1, I wouldn't be concerned. I went from 500-600 ft per minute climb on hot summer days to now 1100 ft/minute now in the cool fall temps.

It will cost you a ton more to upgrade to IFR than buying one already there. If the sentimental value is worth it to you (you won't get it back when you sell), then go for it, but keep that cost in mind.

Good luck!
 
PilotRPI said:
In the summer, I'll only fly with one passenger in my 172 with a similarly sized engine. In the cooler temps, I'd take another person as the performance drastically improves. Two questions I would ask you are:

-How often are you really going to fly with your entire family? A couple times a year, then just rent something bigger when you need it. If it will 90% of the time be just you or you + 1, then it won't be an issue. Be true to yourself about your mission.

-Looks like you are in TX. If you plan on flying a lot fully loaded on very hot days, this might not be the plane for you. Again, hot days with a 1+1, I wouldn't be concerned. I went from 500-600 ft per minute climb on hot summer days to now 1100 ft/minute now in the cool fall temps.

It will cost you a ton more to upgrade to IFR than buying one already there. If the sentimental value is worth it to you (you won't get it back when you sell), then go for it, but keep that cost in mind.

Good luck!
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Yeah, the cost of the IFR cert is the major unknown. I know the airframe ... one of the rentals I use is a 1964 Cherokee 180, and they are perfectly comfortable back there for the time being. We also fly a 172M pretty regularly, and we get by on that 150hp. It ain't impressive on those 95 degree days, but when it's going to be hot and heavy, I can plan fuel and departure times accordingly, or rent.

I spoke with the owner last night, and the radio stack is in better shape than I thought. It has a KMA24 audio panel, but no antenna. He does have two radios in there, and at least one is Nav/Com. Hoping to maybe add a 430 or something for the other radio and ILS. Just not sure if that gets me there, or what all that would cost.

The other part that hasn't been discussed is my wife's comfort level. It's her dad we speaking of, so the memories/story really hit home. She's actually excited about the prospect of buying this (which hasn't been the case for any other plane), and knows that we would likely outgrow this plane in a few years. But, couple of hundred hours with us, I'll make sure I get logbooks for both boys and get lessons with my CFI so their first logbook entries are in this plane, too, and just enjoy dipping our toes into the ownership game.
 
I would recommend that you buy this airplane through a 3rd party. Why? Sellers can smell desperation and this sounds ripe for you overpaying for this S/N (you did check the data plate, right?). Set a price and allow your broker to go over by x% with the caveat that he's cutting into his commission for overages. Incentivize by adding commission for savings below your set price. Let him manage the deal including the pre-buy.

After it's all done, enjoy your airplane.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I would recommend that you buy this airplane through a 3rd party. Why? Sellers can smell desperation and this sounds ripe for you overpaying for this S/N (you did check the data plate, right?). Set a price and allow your broker to go over by x% with the caveat that he's cutting into his commission for overages. Incentivize by adding commission for savings below your set price. Let him manage the deal including the pre-buy.

After it's all done, enjoy your airplane.
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Thanks for the tip. If everything is as he's saying, it's priced very fairly. I need to track down a mechanic around Ravenswood, WV to try and get a pre-buy done.
 
I think the 140 would be fine for you and your wife. My buddy used to fly with his wife and daughter, but he was probably 50-60 lbs lighter than you.

It would be cool to buy the plane your father flew, but sentiment aside, I don't think it's a practical choice if you want to fly with the family.
 
rbridges said:
I think the 140 would be fine for you and your wife. My buddy used to fly with his wife and daughter, but he was probably 50-60 lbs lighter than you.

It would be cool to buy the plane your father flew, but sentiment aside, I don't think it's a practical choice if you want to fly with the family.
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My 140 (150 HP) had a useful load of about 780 lbs. Full fuel was 50 gal (@~6lbs), so 300 lbs. That left 480 lbs. for people and luggage. Of course you don't need full fuel most of the time and you can do the math and get back another 100 lbs. or so. Still, with the pilot weighing in at 250 (I'm 170ish), that doesn't leave a lot of room for growth. If, let's say the spouse is 120 or so (speculation) and the kids are 200 as mentioned, you are leaving fuel behind on every trip and not taking any luggage. Plus, kids grow up quickly.
 
As long as you are being honest with yourself about the plane and why you want it you won't regret buying it. However if you think you can make this into a family cross country hauler you are going to get real disappointed real fast. Why are you getting a pre buy? Is there something they could say or find that would over ride the sentimental feelings and you would walk away?

I'm only saying this because I recently went on a 70nm cross country with the wife and kids in a 140 and that was about all we could handle being crammed in there. My girls are 1/2 the size of your kids 45 and 55 pounds

9e27ecfb8281848f785a8f9bd46bdc6e.jpg
 
JCranford said:
Never allow 'sentiment' to make a multi-thousand dollar decision for you.
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Potty trained at gunpoint, were you?

We do it all the time. We marry for sentiment, while it is FAR cheaper to rent. We throw many dollars into prom dresses for our kids, and multiple many when they marry.

If sentiment makes you happy then what the hell is money for?

Jim
 
Frogs97 said:
I spoke with the owner last night, and the radio stack is in better shape than I thought. It has a KMA24 audio panel, but no antenna. He does have two radios in there, and at least one is Nav/Com.

Audio panels do not need an antenna. What are you really saying here?


Hoping to maybe add a 430 or something for the other radio and ILS. Just not sure if that gets me there, or what all that would cost.

Do not, under ANY circumstances, let everybody tell you what would be required for an instrument rating or training. Last I looked at the PTS for the instrument ride, you had to show a VOR and an ILS approach and that is IT. An IFR GPS is NOT necessary (unless you can convince the wife otherwise {;-) ). Go slow with what you really need until you just absolutely have to have it.
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.....
 
Frogs97 said:
I know the airframe ... one of the rentals I use is a 1964 Cherokee 180, and they are perfectly comfortable back there for the time being.
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I think you'll find that a four-seat Cherokee 140 has less room in the back than does a short-body Cherokee 150/160/180/235/Arrow, even though the external dimensions are the same. The 140 was originally just a two-seat model with rear bulkhead one station forward of where it was in the other models. A year later they came out with the snap-in "2+2" rear seats in what was the baggage area. That '64 Cherokee 180, on the other hand, has a permanent rear seat, a couple of inches further back, and not constrained by the rear bulkhead.

I instructed in Cherokee 140s, and owned one of the later ones ('77 model). It was a snug fit back there, used by adults only in a pinch. Like the time a pilot friend got married and asked me to fly him and his new bride from VNY to SMO to evade rowdy well-wishers. I didn't know she'd still be wearing her wedding gown for the flight! :eek: Fortunately it was only 12 nm. :redface:

Flying-1980s-3031.jpg


All that said, I understand completely about the sentimental value of the airplane you're looking at. I inherited the 172N my dad had owned (and loved and doted on) for 20 years before his death. I couldn't bear to sell it, so I sold my other airplane instead. It's not perfect for my mission, but it's good enough ... and I think of my dad every time I fly it.
 
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MotoFlier said:
As long as you are being honest with yourself about the plane and why you want it you won't regret buying it. However if you think you can make this into a family cross country hauler you are going to get real disappointed real fast. Why are you getting a pre buy? Is there something they could say or find that would over ride the sentimental feelings and you would walk away?

I'm only saying this because I recently went on a 70nm cross country with the wife and kids in a 140 and that was about all we could handle being crammed in there. My girls are 1/2 the size of your kids 45 and 55 pounds

9e27ecfb8281848f785a8f9bd46bdc6e.jpg
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Like I said, if the plane is as he's represented, then it is fairly priced. If all he's done is put lipstick on a pig, and there are real safety issues, then I will have to pass, or get him down on price.
 
MotoFlier said:
As long as you are being honest with yourself about the plane and why you want it you won't regret buying it. However if you think you can make this into a family cross country hauler you are going to get real disappointed real fast. Why are you getting a pre buy? Is there something they could say or find that would over ride the sentimental feelings and you would walk away?

I'm only saying this because I recently went on a 70nm cross country with the wife and kids in a 140 and that was about all we could handle being crammed in there. My girls are 1/2 the size of your kids 45 and 55 pounds

9e27ecfb8281848f785a8f9bd46bdc6e.jpg
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great pic. I guess flying doesn't make them nervous. :lol:
 
Frogs97 said:
The antenna I'm talking about is for the marker annunciator (may need more than just that).

The GPS is more for me.
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OK, so you are saying he's got the KMA-24 option with the marker receiver. Why on earth somebody would spend that kind of money and not make it operational makes no sense, but so be it.

My Chief catalog is buried somewhere but I vaguely recall a boat marker antenna at somewhere around $250, more or less. You can get one from an aircraft junkyard for less than half of that, so no big deal. But you really need to get a picture of the instrument panel so we can see exactly what is installed in it, if you are really serious about getting your IR in it.

Used non-IFR GPS are going for not much money on ebay these days if that suits your purpose.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
OK, so you are saying he's got the KMA-24 option with the marker receiver. Why on earth somebody would spend that kind of money and not make it operational makes no sense, but so be it.

My Chief catalog is buried somewhere but I vaguely recall a boat marker antenna at somewhere around $250, more or less. You can get one from an aircraft junkyard for less than half of that, so no big deal. But you really need to get a picture of the instrument panel so we can see exactly what is installed in it, if you are really serious about getting your IR in it.

Used non-IFR GPS are going for not much money on ebay these days if that suits your purpose.

Jim
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That's my current understanding, yes. Still waiting on a more complete set of information (list of avionics, logs, etc). He had only just started trying to sell it, and was looking to do it locally, so he didn't quite have stuff prepared to send electronically.
 
From what you describe about your family, a Cherokee 140 is going to be too small for you long-term. You won't get your money back out of it when doing avionics upgrades, and they won't be cheap.
 
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