Checkrides cost how much? Really?
- Thread starter IK04
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I am serious.And not the cost of a baseball bat I'm gonna whack @MauleSkinner upside the head with if he don't get serious about this
You need to understand that the demographic for examiners has changed significantly over the last 30 years.
Yes, the flight school owner/chief pilot with examining authority still exists, but that’s a relatively small portion of the pool.
Most of the rest used to be the local FBO owners who had a couple of airplanes for training, a few more for charter (a single and maybe a couple of light twins), sold gas, did maintenance, and whatever else he had to do to make a living in aviation, including being an examiner. That operator is almost extinct now, and the closest thing that really exists has turbine airplanes, so the cost of his time has gone up significantly.
Most of the rest are people who make their living flying, and in today’s market that can easily mean $1000 a day that they’re giving up for anything to do with examining, and that income needs to be recouped if examiners are going to exist. The cost of a week in Oklahoma City is a non-issue relative to the income lost. Not is it a real issue in determining rates.
benyflyguy
En-Route
400 for IR ride March of this year. In PA
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Gotcha. I get that. That would be like the cost of BEING a DPE. All valid considerations, I get it. What I was wondering was the cost Getting your DPE certificate or whatever it is called. Like application fees, written test fee if any. Cost of the airplane if flying is part of the DPE checkride. Things like that.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Not sure what the various cost have to do with it.
One must apply through the national registry and take a written and a course through the FAA. Once that is done then the applicants are ranked. If the area under the FSDO jurisdiction needs a DPE, then the registry selects the top candidate.
Applying, taking the exam and course doesn’t guarantee anyone they will become designated.
DPE’s serve at the pleasure of the administrator, and a designation can be revoked at anytime.
I know someone who has been trying for several years to become a DPE but the FSDO doesn't see a need for another one, despite the fact that I had almost a 2 month wait. Most applicants make the appt far in advance, but don't submit the IACRA application until a week or so before the ride, so the FSDO looks at that one week wait time and doesn't think more examiners are needed.
I suspect there may also be a bit of an old boys network involved, but I don't really know for sure.
I suspect there may also be a bit of an old boys network involved, but I don't really know for sure.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
That sounds like instructors need to be educated.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Depending on what the course costs, if they charge at all, it sounds like it wouldn't cost a lot to get it. I've done quick read of that order. Thought this was interesting. There are horror stories here every now and then about even being able to find a DPE much less what they charge. Maybe more folk ought to start complaining. The FAA solicits the complaints. I did the underlining and Bolding
b.Need for and Ability to Manage a Designee. Successfully meeting the eligibility requirements does not guarantee appointment as a designee. The managing FAA office, within its sole discretion, determines the need for and ability to manage a designee.
(1)Determining Need. The managing FAA office considers several factors in determining the need for a designee including, but not limited to:
(a)Activity level of current designees performing similar work in the managing FAA office’s geographical area.
(b)Demand/convenience to the public, as determined by the:
•Ability to provide examinations within a reasonable period of time, and
•Number of complaints from the public for lack of availability of certification.
(c)Geographic dispersion as determined by the distance an applicant must travel to get to the designee.
Note:The need for a new designee is driven by the needs of the public and not by the impact on other existing designees or the desires of air operators/agencies.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
That's not the deciding criteria on need for a DPE.
And just because someone wants to be a DPE doesn't mean they will get selected. There are far more DPE applicants than slots available.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Read post #49. It's time for folk to start complaining
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
Well yeah, considering the cash grab it is, it doesn't surprise me there are far more applicants than slots. Nothing new under the sun.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, obviously if the applicant is doing it for fun, the examiner should, too!
Well, obviously if the applicant is doing it for fun, the examiner should, too!
Why not? I was a volunteer examiner for the FCC for several years, didn't make a dime.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
So your wife supported you?Why not? I was a volunteer examiner for the FCC for several years, didn't make a dime.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
No it's not. You wrote:
Which is not correct. The FSDO doesn't use the IACRA information in determining need of a DPE in the way you described.
Needs of DPE's vary over time. If the FSDO took the busiest period of a year and based their needs on that narrow scope, the resultant would be an over staffing of DPE's. There are many variables that go into estimating the numbers of DPE's in a given district.
And as previously stated, if there is a problem the FAA gives a way for public input.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Why not? I was a volunteer examiner for the FCC for several years, didn't make a dime.
Just curious, what was your liability in issuing an FCC certificate?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ok...so an occasional evening or Saturday checkride would solve the backlog.
Guys, notice the smiley on my FCC post. I'm kidding; it ain't the same! There's virtually no liability and it's not a life and death safety matter.
It takes a minimum of three Volunteer Examiners to endorse a written test for an FCC certificate. The test is administered by the ARRL, Amateur Radio Relay League. The results are sent to the FCC, who issues the certificate or upgrade.
The rules for conducting a test session are very specific and closely followed.
As far as liability goes, there is no connection between the applicant and the examiner(s). Any legal or corrective action taken against a certificate holder is done by the FCC...
Doc Holliday
En-Route
The DPE has the liability of issuing the certificate on behalf of the administrator. If an applicant is involved in an accident after the check, it could involve the DPE. If the applicants are involved in multiple pilot deviations, this too could reflect back to the DPE. The DPE is under constant scrutiny in completing paperwork completely and accurately, and can face disciplinary actions including termination if they fail at this.
Plus DPE's have the extra added bonus of being liable if the applicant should have an accident and die, and the applicants family hires lawyers.
So comparing an FAA DPE to an FCC volunteer examiner is apples and bulldozers.
I guess you missed the smiley.
And you missed the post explaining the smiley.
I hope you're more attentive when reading checklists.
And you should probably list an impaired humor gland on your next medical. It may require an SI.
Witmo
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It seems the ability of a FSDO to manage DPEs varies greatly and impacts the number of DPEs in an area. One highly experienced, local pilot was selected, went through all the wickets, gave a couple of checkrides and was dropped by the FSDO because they claimed that they didn't have enough people to manage the number of DPEs they had and since he was junior, he got dropped. Tough to schedule a DPE around here in a reasonable amount of time but still, they dropped him. The FSDO prefers DPEs with multiple qualifications because it cuts down on their workload managing one person vs multiple bodies but still they complain they don't have enough manpower to monitor and do paperwork on the DPEs they have.
ZeroPapaGolf
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Just got a quote today for initial CFI. $1200.
sarangan
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Andrew, CFI-I
In 1997, I paid $135 for the Private pilot and IFR checkrides. For the commercial I paid $150, in 1999. CFI checkride was free. CFII ride was $200.
That's pretty much what I have heard from the FAA guys I know. They told me the backlog of paperwork is six months to a year for their part 135 work.
They are always understaffed because of the usual government hiring limits and budgets.
That's close to what I paid in 1978-1980, when I was getting all my ratings. Those are the numbers I have in my head when I compare the near- thousand Dollar prices pilots are paying nowadays...
Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
I'd start by filling out the Form 8710-10 and reading up on the rest of the provided information from FAA.gov.
After that, the first meaningful step in the process is to interview with the FSDO you'd like to work with, and determine their potential need for additional examiners.
It's possible there's a need in the district, but the FSDO isn't staffed with ASIs at the level necessary to supervise an additional DPE's activities. In that case, they may not be looking to bring an additional pilot examiner on board.
There are various minimum time requirements and such -- in my experience they are bare minimums. Most DPEs exceed the minimums several times over, or more. There are only 1,200 or so FAA DPEs worldwide -- it's highly selective.
The designee application, selection and appointment process is currently under review and subject to change, and probably soon. It's an involved sequence, and more than I can (or should) get into here. It takes most applicants 6-12 months on the low side, 7-10 years on the high side to complete the process -- if they're selected and appointed. I've heard of cases exceeding a decade, and plenty involving no appointment at all. The FAA is under no obligation to appoint a designee. Designees serve at the pleasure of the Administrator and their privileges can be revoked at any time, for any reason.
Speaking to your comment, I don't know if I'd call this "fun." It's extremely detailed, challenging, and can be -- speaking frankly, here -- exhausting. It's far beyond the challenges presented by instructing, which I also enjoy. But am I happy to be doing this? Yes -- for me it's an honor. Being a part of airman certification in this way is extremely rewarding.
Hope this helps. If you want more detail, send a PM.
Ryan F.
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The application is made through the NEB, "via" the local FSDO. You're correct that the FSDO determines if there's a 'need' for another designee.
The "minimum standards" are expansive and go beyond aeronautical experience (i.e. "flight hours.") Once selected, the applicant must take an online course and initial training at OKC. Neither are provided by the Academy.
That's basically correct.
Also 8900.1 and 8000.95.
Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
It's a CLOA (Certificate and Letter of Authority.) It is not similar to a pilot or instructor certificate.
Without saying it in so many words, the "costs" are not really relevant. There's a great deal of time and effort involved in the process, and the money spent on the courses, airplane rental for the checkrides, etc. are of relatively little concern in the grand scheme. The primary onus is time and effort.
Yeah, "fun" is a term I use when confronted with a challenge. I picked that up in the Army...
I spent most of my military career as an Instructor Pilot and Instrument examiner, so I know the rigors of detailed documentation and thorough evaluation by the book!
I had about an hour long conversation with an FAA inspector and he said they were swamped with requests for flight tests and need all the help they can get. Being shorthanded, they struggle to monitor the DPEs they have now. They are severely short of Helicopter examiners.
I looked at your web page and it's very evident you take this stuff seriously. Nice!
Jmcmanna
Pre-takeoff checklist
I guess I got lucky! The owner of the flight school I did my private with was a DPE. I paid for an hour of C150 rental. I also washed airplanes during the summer for the same flight school (I was in high school at the time), so my out of pocket cost was around $0.
Ryan F.
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Great, sounds like you'd be a shoe-in for this given your background and experience. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any help!
imwithtuxedo
Pre-takeoff checklist
I also had a multi-month wait for my PPL. Spoke with three different DPEs in Oklahoma and couldn't get them to even give me a date or date range for my exam. I even had my CFI call. They literally wouldn't call me back with a date, give me timeframe of when their schedule would be more open, and when I got a response from 1 of the 3 it was "July" when I was asking in early May.... Finally got fed up and starting calling DPEs is neighboring states and found a great DPE in Arkansas which required a 2hr cross-country flight to my exam but he got me scheduled within one week of our first phone call and I passed. I'll probably just call him for my IFR and not bother with the Oklahoma DPEs.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Correct. The NEB controls much of the process and even more now that the FAA has implemented DMS.
Never said anything was “provided” by the Academy. However, those courses are developed and maintained by the Academy.
As far as “minimum standards”, everything in the FAA is based upon minimum standards. To get in the process one must have the minimums, but that doesn’t mean much since many many others will exceed those standards.
Yep.