Checkride - My story.

zaitcev said:
Sorry to hijack Sara's thread, but it was Mr. Veneklassen.
Click to expand...
He's a good friend of mine. He's one of the DE's who "get's it" in terms of understanding that you don't have to be Chuck Yeager in order to be a safe pilot. He wouldn't have passed you if he didn't think you were safe/had the right frame of mind.

And yes, sorry to hijack your thread Sara :D
 
dell30rb said:
I honestly think using a paper checklist every time for a simple aircraft like a warrior, arrow or whatever can be a dangerous crutch (in some circumstances). Its good for newer pilots or on your checkride, or on an unfamiliar airplane. But I think its more prudent to develop a flow or other memorized checklist (CIGAR, GUMPS, whatever) that you can do in your head and quickly. I think these methods also enhance the muscle memory associated with doing a checklist, which lowers the brain power required to complete the checklist and at the same time decreases the possibility of error. Complex, two pilot aircraft are an exception.

I have been flying a few times with a friend who does the paper checklist thing. The first time I went flying with him and he whips out the checklist in a cessna that I know he is very familiar with, and painstakingly reads and does everything. We fly to our destination and on downwind he does the paper checklist thing. I think "well, he spent an awful lot of time looking down at that checklist (and not out the window while in the pattern in MVFR conditions) but at least he won't miss anything"

Fast forward a few months. He is nearing 30 hours into his instrument training, and I have flown safety pilot for him several times. He's pretty good at understanding the approach plate, working with navaids, talking on the radio, and flying by ref to instruments. What's the biggest and most dangerous error i've seen him make? Checklist. When he's busy with all of the IFR stuff, he either forgets the before landing checklist entirely, or tries to do it half assed from memory and forgets something. probably 5 out of the last 7 approaches he's forgotten the carb heat.. very dangerous mistake when in the clouds with all that moisture...

What if you're a paper checklist guy and you're flying an approach in IMC and turbulence, and your eyes skip over a line? How about if that checklist decides to fall out of your lap and gets stuck under your seat while downwind in the pattern with a bunch of traffic?
Click to expand...
I've flown with many people who I wouldn't trust in an emergency due to their lack of ability to do anything without a printed checklist.
 
danhagan said:
Just add a "P" to your takeoff (I do LCAP):

Lights
Camera
Action
PUMP
Click to expand...
I always liked BLT w/ Mayo....

Boost pump on
Landing light on
Transponder on
Mixture rich

In almost every airplane that covers the 'final items' that you leave until cleared for takeoff/taking the runway




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
danhagan said:
Just add a "P" to your takeoff (I do LCAP):

Lights
Camera
Action
PUMP

Also do a B-GUMP on Base when landing:

Boost Pump
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop
Click to expand...


Lol. Why is it "P" before you take off and "B" before you land"?

LCAB or P-GUMP wouldn't work? Wouldn't it make sense to make the letter mean the same thing regardless of phase of flight?
 
To what do you attribute this problem? Failure to memorize the memory items or some other issue?

GCA319 said:
I've flown with many people who I wouldn't trust in an emergency due to their lack of ability to do anything without a printed checklist.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
To what do you attribute this problem? Failure to memorize the memory items or some other issue?
Click to expand...
For one, failure to know and understand the procedure for the given emergency. For instance, I was giving some dual to a friend (he's been a pilot longer than I've been alive) of mine who completely froze up at altitude when I informed him of a simulated electrical fire and then proceeded to struggle with the checklist going line by line very slowly until I had informed hime that my shoe had suffered a simulated melt onto my feet. Then he didn't know how to perform an emergency decent. I think he's a pretty good stick and has a reasonable knowlege base, but this kind of behavior in an emergency is extremely unsafe. I also believe that there are some things that should be committed to memory.
 
The parts that are highlighted in the emergency procedure sections of the POHs that I've seen are meant to be memorized. I think it's a good idea to review those once in a while or before a flight, if it's been a while.
 
I busted mine week and a half ago. On Turn Around a Point. And according to CFI who knows DPE well, he said it's very unlike him to bust someone on that. CFI thought I was over the object or something, but it was simply closer to the object than when I started.

Either way, after the "Do you want to continue?" I found it was actually very relaxing. All pressure was off. I knew if I "bust" something now, I can always retake it next time. Rest of the flight was great.

I am sure you will get it next one. I am confident about my retake (hopefully on Saturday, if wx cooperates) and I am sure your retake will be easy as well.
 
I have taken off in a Warrior -- once -- forgetting to turn on the fuel pump, despite using the checklist, looking at it, and "confirming ON". The mind can play tricks at times, when you "see" what you're expecting to see.
 
As proven with flap settings and other devices on transports. Crew confirms settings, tactile feel, proper indication; results prove otherwise.

BrianR said:
I have taken off in a Warrior -- once -- forgetting to turn on the fuel pump, despite using the checklist, looking at it, and "confirming ON". The mind can play tricks at times, when you "see" what you're expecting to see.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks everyone on commenting. I'm confident of a pass when I can show I know to turn on the fuel pump. Especially since I can focus on just that ONE thing. For those that think I shouldn't fly I'm sorry.
 
How did you handle this situation with your friend?

GCA319 said:
For one, failure to know and understand the procedure for the given emergency. For instance, I was giving some dual to a friend (he's been a pilot longer than I've been alive) of mine who completely froze up at altitude when I informed him of a simulated electrical fire and then proceeded to struggle with the checklist going line by line very slowly until I had informed hime that my shoe had suffered a simulated melt onto my feet. Then he didn't know how to perform an emergency decent. I think he's a pretty good stick and has a reasonable knowlege base, but this kind of behavior in an emergency is extremely unsafe. I also believe that there are some things that should be committed to memory.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
How did you handle this situation with your friend?
Click to expand...
I demonstrated how I felt it should have been handled (all the way through to the decent), then we talked it over on the ground and he has agreed to read up on emergency procedures for his plane and we'll re-visit the issue when his flight review is up in a few months. I'm still new to teaching, so I'm open to any suggestions of other ways I could have handled it, but I felt it worked...
 
saracelica said:
Thanks everyone on commenting. I'm confident of a pass when I can show I know to turn on the fuel pump. Especially since I can focus on just that ONE thing. For those that think I shouldn't fly I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

Just don't focus so much on the fuel pump that you forget something else equally important...
 
Why couldn't you do the other maneuvers? Is it because the fuel pump issue is part of the take-off checklist and therefore take-offs were not allowed for the rest of the ride?
 
pilotod said:
Why couldn't you do the other maneuvers? Is it because the fuel pump issue is part of the take-off checklist and therefore take-offs were not allowed for the rest of the ride?
Click to expand...
I did do the rest of the maneuvers. Passed them all. Fuel Pump ON is part of the take off checklist and since I didn't turn it on I failed that ONE section.
 
Was the bust due to the single item (fuel pump) or failure to use the checklist? If I had been conducting the ride, it would have been the latter.

Since I was also allowed to retrain (part 135 rides are different in that regard) we would have discussed the deficiency at length, and how a pilot could find him/herself in that situation, and the methodology to preclude it happening again. Once that was done, the retest would not be limited to the single item that triggered the bust. YMMV.

saracelica said:
I did do the rest of the maneuvers. Passed them all. Fuel Pump ON is part of the take off checklist and since I didn't turn it on I failed that ONE section.
Click to expand...
 
Retest is probably late next week. Got to go "review" with my CFI on Monday and then I'll call and reschedule. DPE said we'd only be doing the takeoff and landings. Not sure if the bust was due to not using the checklist (but I did use it and he said he saw me look right at the fuel pump switch three times) I believe it was for the single item. I mentioned this in another posting somewhere that I did that once before with my CFI and he let it pass and just said "Don't forget it on your 'ride"
 
saracelica said:
Retest is probably late next week. Got to go "review" with my CFI on Monday and then I'll call and reschedule. DPE said we'd only be doing the takeoff and landings. Not sure if the bust was due to not using the checklist (but I did use it and he said he saw me look right at the fuel pump switch three times) I believe it was for the single item. I mentioned this in another posting somewhere that I did that once before with my CFI and he let it pass and just said "Don't forget it on your 'ride"
Click to expand...

*sigh*:(
 
I was nervous. I guess you weren't on your PPL ride. I get credit for getting my composure together to finish the ride at least, right?
 
saracelica said:
Retest is probably late next week. Got to go "review" with my CFI on Monday and then I'll call and reschedule. DPE said we'd only be doing the takeoff and landings. Not sure if the bust was due to not using the checklist (but I did use it and he said he saw me look right at the fuel pump switch three times) I believe it was for the single item. I mentioned this in another posting somewhere that I did that once before with my CFI and he let it pass and just said "Don't forget it on your 'ride"
Click to expand...

So what are your plans once you do pass next week? Besides your husband, any passengers in mind? Or destinations? Or just solo flights?
 
saracelica said:
I was nervous. I guess you weren't on your PPL ride. I get credit for getting my composure together to finish the ride at least, right?
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that everybody is nervous on every checkride. Should that be an acceptable excuse?

If you looked at the switch 3 times but didn't turn it on, what's with that? Why didn't you turn it on? Is it a checklist item? If so, which checklist?

If it's not on the checklist, why not? Is the "pump on" item incorrectly sequenced relative to a normal pretakeoff flow? Should it be moved to a more "nonforgettable" spot? Should a separate "line-up" checklist be added to prevent it (and maybe other stuff) from being forgotten?

Based on your other post, the check-ride wasn't the first time this problem occurred. Is "don't forget it on your checkride" the proper method for your CFI to address this problem?
 
saracelica said:
I was nervous. I guess you weren't on your PPL ride. I get credit for getting my composure together to finish the ride at least, right?
Click to expand...

Well, I was beyond nervous for my check ride. But you have to be able to perform under pressure, right? If an emergency occurs, it's going to be a high stress situation... The way I went into the Checkride was as a learning experience. I knew I would learn something from it that would help to make me a safer pilot. I just want to be the safest pilot possible, so if not passing a couple times is what it takes for you- then I don't see it as a bad thing. As long as you are learning and hopefully don't make the same mistakes twice. Nobody's perfect- My Checkride examiner told me he did NOT look for perfection. He just wanted to make sure I would be a safe pilot.

Good luck on your re test!!
 
If we were informally discussing instructional techniques over an adult beverage, some of my questions would be:

What do you view as the primary issue/deficiency with his performance?

Was the deficiency a cause or a symptom of the underlying problem or problems?

How did you introduce the subject with him? With a statement or with a question?

How could you best demonstrate the differences in his performance and the desired performance during the post-flight brief?







GCA319 said:
I demonstrated how I felt it should have been handled (all the way through to the decent), then we talked it over on the ground and he has agreed to read up on emergency procedures for his plane and we'll re-visit the issue when his flight review is up in a few months. I'm still new to teaching, so I'm open to any suggestions of other ways I could have handled it, but I felt it worked...
Click to expand...
 
Wow. Not sure how I've missed this thread for the last few days but now that I'm here... Sara, I'm with everyone who says to think to beyond the checkride. It's not just about remembering something for the test. It's about being PIC and the responsibility that entails. Yes the examiner is only interested in making sure that you will be safe as a passenger-carrying PIC. Apparently the examiner wasn't satisfied that you're ready yet for that responsibility. You forgot the fuel pump -- apparently it's happened before. If it's potentially a critical item (engine loses power on takeoff) then you need to find a way to make sure it NEVER happens again. Not just on the test.

Sorry to be blunt about it. I almost put my Cardinal into the trees a few weeks ago because I waited longer than I should have to go around. That mistake could have gotten me killed. We've all got to take flying seriously, too many of us do kill ourselves (and sometimes our pax) by making preventable mistakes.
 
On my ppl ride, I was nervous. The DPE let a few errors slide. I could have failed it. The DPE after said "I could have failed you for this and this, but I let you continue and fyou did in fact demonstrate mastery of the aircraft". I forgot to hold the brakes on my short field takeoff and I took too long to notice a seriously processing gyro on the x/c portion (the dg was basically broken).
 
I also know that failed checkrides can be a sign of incompetency. The fella that owns the 152 I fly (he is overseas) bought the 152 for time building and flies with just about anyone willing to split gas*. He told me he has flown with one guy who has 4 pink slips. He said this particular guy has nearly 1000 hours, comm rated instrument pilot and does pretty well, except that every time he gets in the clouds he gets nervous and has asked my friend to 'take the plane' several times. Not sure I want this guy flying me or anyone else around in a crj or whatever.

Also, we have JFK for a poster child...

For the paper checklist guys who get flustered in an emergency scenario, as a start for corrective action I would by make sure they understand what the checklist is accomplishing. Ex. An engine failure... "an engine needs fuel, air and spark to run. What parts of this emergency checklist are ensuring the engine gets enough fuel, and why? Why do we want to make sure the carb heat is on?"
 
Last edited:
Heck = I was so nervous on my checkride I forgot the chocks. Since I was in a Warrior, the DPE had to get back out. I realized it as soon as we closed the door.

As others have said - above all, the DPE wants you to demonstrate that you are safe. I have a feeling that it takes a lot to fool an examiner - and nervous or not, sloppy on the turns and landings or not, they can tell if you know what you are doing. And a reminder from them in the form of a "let's take a break and finish this another time", could be a lifesaver some day.
 
dell30rb said:
I also know that failed checkrides can be a sign of incompetency. The fella that owns the 152 I fly (he is overseas) bought the 152 for time building and flies with just about anyone willing to split gas*. He told me he has flown with one guy who has 4 pink slips. He said this particular guy has nearly 1000 hours, comm rated instrument pilot and does pretty well, except that every time he gets in the clouds he gets nervous and has asked my friend to 'take the plane' several times. Not sure I want this guy flying me or anyone else around in a crj or whatever.

Also, we have JFK for a poster child...

For the paper checklist guys who get flustered in an emergency scenario, as a start for corrective action I would by make sure they understand what the checklist is accomplishing. Ex. An engine failure... "an engine needs fuel, air and spark to run. What parts of this emergency checklist are ensuring the engine gets enough fuel, and why? Why do we want to make sure the carb heat is on?"
Click to expand...

What are the first 10 memory items on the engine failure emer check list for the airplane that you fly?
 
wabower said:
What are the first 10 memory items on the engine failure emer check list for the airplane that you fly?
Click to expand...

Trim for best glide
Aim for nearest airport or big field / potential landing area

Mixture rich
Carb heat on
Fuel valve on
Primer locked
Cycle mags
Open and close throttle to check for any response

Squawk 7700, declare emergency
 
Good job.

What if it's a fire?

dell30rb said:
Trim for best glide
Aim for nearest airport or big field / potential landing area

Mixture rich
Carb heat on
Fuel valve on
Primer locked
Cycle mags
Open and close throttle to check for any response

Squawk 7700, declare emergency
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Good job.

What if it's a fire?
Click to expand...

Fuel off

Mixture cut off

Close throttle

Master off

mags off

Carb heat off

Attempt to dive, and or slip for incombustible mixture and extinguish the fire

If no worky, dive at max flap extension speed with full flaps and full slip for a landing field. On the Cessna, I might even flip the master back on to add in full flaps.
 
Last edited:
Maybe you should have lunch with the other guy's trainee. I'm guessing he will learn all he needs to know about what his next training assignment.
dell30rb said:
Fuel off

Mixture cut off

Close throttle

Master off

mags off

Attempt to dive, and or slip for incombustible mixture and extinguish the fire

If no worky, dive at max flap extension speed with full flaps and full slip for a landing field. On the Cessna, I might even flip the master back on to add in full flaps.
Click to expand...
 
Sara, if I were your DPE, I'd first ask you to explain the fuel system and the function of the auxiliary electric fuel pump. Then I would ask you why turning the fuel pump on is included in the before landing checklist. I'd expect (and possibly push you toward, if you seemed to have an understanding) something like "it is a back up fuel source for the engine in case of a sudden mechanical pump failure." why is it so important to have a back up source on final approach and landing? "because when you are close to the ground and maneuvering or possibly initiating a go around from a bad approach, even a momentary engine fuel interruption can be a Serious problem"

If you can answer those questions and demonstrate in a flight test that you remember to turn the pump on, I'd sign you off :)
 
wabower said:
Maybe you should have lunch with the other guy's trainee. I'm guessing he will learn all he needs to know about what his next training assignment.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'd like to get a Cfi rating and be a good instructor some day...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top