Checkride in Complex / High Performance Airplane

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boydbischke

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Boyd
I'm about 20 hours into my flight instruction, and I'm about to buy a 1978 Piper Turbo Lance II T-Tail. I've been training in a 172 and am starting to get a pretty good feel for it.

I'm wondering your thoughts of completing my training and Checkride in the Lance.

Pros:
- How badly do I really want to take my wife and kids in an airplane if I'm not comfortable enough with it to pass a check ride.
- I need endorsements anyway.
- While my insurance actually doesn't have hour requirements for this plane, some do.

Cons:
- Student pilots are hard on airplanes.
- This is a turbo, so I'm concerned about overboost / over-temperature and shot cooling during maneuvers.
- Not necessarily wanting to put a lot of hours on a plane with a high rebuild cost just for training.
- The T-Tail Lance is a bit of a bear to fly, and it might be harder to perform maneuvers.

My thinking is that I should just focus on getting my private in the 172, and then get maybe 10 hours of instruction in the Lance once complete. Just curious if anybody else had a take on it.
 
Finish in the 172. Chances are insurance for a student pilot in the Lance will be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention the fact that it will add to the time needed for the certificate.
 
Finish training and take the checkride in the trainer. Then transition to the complex. You'll need several hours for the Complex Endorsement, several more of insurance-required dual, and maybe some insurance-required solo. You can do that on your own, or you can insert it into the middle of your training . . .

But then again, I may be biased. My plane became available a few weeks before my checkride, but I just ignored it as best as I could and concentrated on getting finished. Five weeks later, I wrote a big check and started in transition training. Just because it worked this way for me doesn't mean that it must work that way for you.
 
Here's another for finishing in the 172.
My motto: In any aspect of life always make required tests as simple as possible.
 
Well, that's a ton of airplane for a new pilot. Having said that, I would prolly start training in it from the get-go. My reasoning is that you want to be proficient in your own plane. If you blow the check ride because of some aircraft systems management fault, then you can retake that part later. If you blow the check ride due to pilotage, you aren't ready for flying anything.

It's a conundrum either way. You would also be well served to get your training down cold in the Cessna then do your 10 hour transition to the bigger plane. I've known people who've taken their check ride in a Bonanza. The examiner will expect you to have full knowledge of, and show proficiency in every system on that plane. Gear, prop, cowl flaps, etc.

Welcome
 
Boy, it's a tough call on a T-Tail Lance. What I would do is finish the PP in the 172, but do your dual cross countries in the Lance and maybe a couple more hours for familiarization. If you are comfortable with the Lance at that point you can reassess, or just finish with your PP in the 172 then get in the Lance and start working on your IR. 5 more hours on the 5 from before, you should be starting to get comfortable in the Lance to take the family VFR.
 
Yeah, as far as insurance, it's just plain expensive in this plane in general, for any low time pilot. As a student vs new private pilot I think it was only about 10% higher. Not much savings until 500 hr IFR pilot according to the agent.

Sounds like more votes for completing in the 172. Appreciate the input.
 
boydbischke said:
Yeah, as far as insurance, it's just plain expensive in this plane in general, for any low time pilot. As a student vs new private pilot I think it was only about 10% higher. Not much savings until 500 hr IFR pilot according to the agent.

Sounds like more votes for completing in the 172. Appreciate the input.
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It's expensive your first 100 hours. If you bust out 50 hours in it and your IR in the first months, call your insurance guy and they'll recalculate you and send a prorata refund (faster you get your IR done the better, might be worth doing the hard core 10 day route). If you hit 100hrs in the first year, call again. At 100hrs in an airplane your rates are going to be base rate around 1.5% insured value regardless total time.
 
If you are gonna need 10 hours of Dual anyway why not just roll those into you PPL training and train and become proficient in the aircraft you are gonna be flying and get as much dual time as you can in it while knocking out all of your endorsements?

I can see the other side...but if you own your own plane you are not gonna be renting a 172 from your local club that you need to be able to master.

Insurance issues aside, fly what you are gonna be flying. Seems like you would be having to start over once you get your PPL to transition to your plane.
 
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Henning said:
Boy, it's a tough call on a T-Tail Lance. What I would do is finish the PP in the 172, but do your dual cross countries in the Lance and maybe a couple more hours for familiarization. If you are comfortable with the Lance at that point you can reassess, or just finish with your PP in the 172 then get in the Lance and start working on your IR. 5 more hours on the 5 from before, you should be starting to get comfortable in the Lance to take the family VFR.
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That sounds like the smart move.
 
Um, please finish with the 172.

I'll give my useless comment here, and then listen to the gray beards above.

When I got the Bonanza, I had over 200 hours in the log book. Most of that was in a DA20 followed by time in the 172 and a compile of other simple airplanes (e.g. C152). But the Bo took some time to wrap my head around.

Yea, it is just a blue knob and a gear switch, but the lance will likely be more slippery and things will go by MUCH faster - at least in the beginning.

Secure the Lance purchase if you must. But get the PPL in the 172. Then spend double the insurance minimum before flying the family.

At this point, look at my signature and re-read the gray beards above...
 
BTW, something that usually isn't taken into account is the cost structure. Sure - you're gonna be in a plane that will suck a ton more fuel if you let it, but there's no reason at all to fry the engine if you are just in training mode, so dial it back to 172 fuel flows, and enjoy the speed of retract flying. Also, with the turbo you can experience some higher stuff, and maybe take a few trips up into O2 land, see what that's like. Renting the 172 is a cost in addition to what you're paying to own, house, feed, and mx the Lance.

Buy it - fly it. You paid for it.
 
docmirror said:
BTW, something that usually isn't taken into account is the cost structure. Sure - you're gonna be in a plane that will suck a ton more fuel if you let it, but there's no reason at all to fry the engine if you are just in training mode, so dial it back to 172 fuel flows, and enjoy the speed of retract flying. Also, with the turbo you can experience some higher stuff, and maybe take a few trips up into O2 land, see what that's like. Renting the 172 is a cost in addition to what you're paying to own, house, feed, and mx the Lance.

Buy it - fly it. You paid for it.
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There is that aspect for sure, that's what makes it a hard call, and in a Bonanza I would agree with you. However the PA/32s aren't the easiest to learn to do the maneuvers in, so if he has those down, and the Lance seems challenging and he'll lose a few hours getting them into shape, he may be better off financially to do the Dual XCs in the Lance and finish the maneuvers and check ride in the 172. It all depends on how comfortable he is in the Lance.

Also it's a TC engine, not TN, so it has low compressions, and pulled down to 172 fuel flows, unless he is doing it with the blue knob, he's coking up hus turbo.
 
I remember being ham fisted on the throttle and about equally as smooth on my landings when I started. I say beat up the trainer because that is what it was made for while learning to fly with finesse in your Lance.

Using the Lance on a XC wouldn't be a bad idea but in the beginning even the mighty C172 seems to move pretty fast across the ground when you are trying to remember to tune the next freq, double checking your location, etc.

My vote is to finish in the C172 and then start the transition to the Lance. Maybe even start in on the IFR requirements with a CFII at the same time.
 
I agree you should take your ride in the 172, for reasons stated above. The lance isn't the easiest aircraft to fly. However, if you can do some time in it while knocking out the cross countries, the transition training after the check ride will be easier
 
One question I have is how far along have you gotten in your 20 hrs. Have you soloed yet? Are you doing well with stalls, maneuvers and landings? If no to the above keep flying the 172. And you will will be ready for your PPL checkride much faster in the 172. Then get in the Lance and start the IR as you get checked out in it. Don
 
yakdriver said:
One question I have is how far along have you gotten in your 20 hrs. Have you soloed yet? Are you doing well with stalls, maneuvers and landings? If no to the above keep flying the 172. And you will will be ready for your PPL checkride much faster in the 172. Then get in the Lance and start the IR as you get checked out in it. Don
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Yeah, I've soloed for some landings, done dual cross-country, power-on stalls, power-off stalls, steep turns, all the radio / ATC communication. Basically just need night flying and flying only by reference to instruments.

Based on all the advise, I think I'll stick with the 172 for my 20 dual, 10 solo, and checkride. I'll get started with the Lance instruction on the other 10 hours of discretionary time.
 
I agree with Greg on his points and would also finish in the 172. And I will also go on to say that I would personally get some varied and different experience before you go out and buy. A Lance is a capable plane, but you may discover that another plane might suit your mission better. I personally did my PPL in a 172, rented various Pipers, Beeches and Cessnas for a while, got my IR, then bought a plane. If I had to do it over again, I would have done the same thing.
 
I agree with almost everyone on here. Finish with the 172. Get through your checkride with the most simple airplane you can. Don't beat up your own plane doing 20 touch and goes in one outing.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Finish in the 172. Chances are insurance for a student pilot in the Lance will be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention the fact that it will add to the time needed for the certificate.
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...and, as the OP pointed out, the things the Private PTS requires are very tough on a turbocharged engine. Wait until you finish crossing the stream to change horses.
 
Henning said:
Boy, it's a tough call on a T-Tail Lance. What I would do is finish the PP in the 172, but do your dual cross countries in the Lance and maybe a couple more hours for familiarization.
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Henning might do that, but after a few thousand hours as a CFI giving training in all sorts of types (including Turbo Lances), I would strongly recommend against it. As I said, don't change horses in the middle of the stream -- you are too likely to get soaked.
 
Your insurance on the Lance should go way down the second year if you fly at least 100 hours in it the first year. I did my Mooney that way, not on purpose, and the initial 2nd year quote was as astronomical as the first. When I pointed out that I had 100 hours in the Mooney, my agent re figured and the premium was cut in half. 3rd year was the same as 2nd, but getting Instruments reduced the premium again by a third.

Doing everything in the 172 will leave you sharp for your checkride, then you can immediately transition into the Big Bird.

Good luck,have fun, and fly safe!
 
boydbischke said:
I'm about 20 hours into my flight instruction, and I'm about to buy a 1978 Piper Turbo Lance II T-Tail. I've been training in a 172 and am starting to get a pretty good feel for it.

I'm wondering your thoughts of completing my training and Checkride in the Lance.

Pros:
- How badly do I really want to take my wife and kids in an airplane if I'm not comfortable enough with it to pass a check ride.
- I need endorsements anyway.
- While my insurance actually doesn't have hour requirements for this plane, some do.

Cons:
- Student pilots are hard on airplanes.
- This is a turbo, so I'm concerned about overboost / over-temperature and shot cooling during maneuvers.
- Not necessarily wanting to put a lot of hours on a plane with a high rebuild cost just for training.
- The T-Tail Lance is a bit of a bear to fly, and it might be harder to perform maneuvers.

My thinking is that I should just focus on getting my private in the 172, and then get maybe 10 hours of instruction in the Lance once complete. Just curious if anybody else had a take on it.
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How do you know that a turbo lance is what you want with twenty ( twenty) hours of flight instruction.?! I'd finish in the 172 and then fly some before doing anything! Not to mention flying your family around with very little experience.
 
I had about 100 hours when I first flew a similar Lance (1979). I decided at only 100 hours that it was too much airplane for me... Not to mention the fuel burn. A 172 to Turbo Lance is a huge step. have you flown the Lance yet?
 
I'll pile on here... PPL in the 172. There's a lot of practice needed beyond the PTS. I flew around for a good 40 hours after purchasing a plane before allowing the family inside. Because when you're flying with your family, you're not just flying, you're flying with your family. And that means added pressures, get-there-itis, are-we-there-yet-itis, distractions, worrying about who's feeling well, etc. That's not the time to discover that you've fallen behind the airplane or wonder why the autopilot is doing what it's doing, etc. Then again, I'm super conservative.
 
I can see both sides of it, but I'd probably switch to the Lance and finish the training there---but, I'm not familiar with TC engines, and someone mentioned that the stuff you'll need to be doing is unduly hard on them, so if that's the case that's a good reason not to.

Otherwise... your PPL will take longer to get, and it will be harder, more expensive, and getting to the level of proficiency you need will be more work in the Lance. But the thing is, you want to be at that level of proficiency anyway, right? So do what you need to do to get there, and you might as well start now. You'll want a lot of dual time in the Lance no matter which way you go.

Unless you'll wreck your engine doing the PPL PTS work in it. If that's the case, probably not worth it. :)

[Edit to add:] BTW, everyone's different, but a turbo Lance would have been way way too much airplane for me when I was halfway through my PPL, and also when I'd just finished it, and also when I had 100 hours. There's a lot you keep learning after the PPL, and most of it you don't realize you don't know until that moment of figuring it out. I did a lot of dumb things that weren't very serious in a pokey Cherokee or 172, but speed and complexity magnifies everything like that.

But that's just me---can't speak for anyone else.
 
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If you've still got AT LEAST 1/2 your training to go, do as much of your dual as possible in your own plane. You won't extend the amount of dual you need, you can do the solo in the 172, you'll have more feel for both.

if you were two weeks to the check ride I'd advise differently, but there's no rush to the magical 40, and you've got confirmed further training needs, so why not? (and you'll only be paying fuel and instructor instead of fuel, rent, and instructor)
 
I couldn't fly often when I was a student; sometimes it was two months between flights. I retain well though, so there was almost no "shaking off the rust" for me. It took me 30 months and 50 hours to get my cert.

That said, after the second time the planes were all taken on days I could have otherwise flown, I aggressively researched and bought a plane. It was a piper apache which is significantly more complex than a 172, but my instructor was also an MEI. So at about 30 hours in I was alternating between soloing in the 172 if weather/winds permitted or we did basic dual in the Apache otherwise. I did my first checkride in the 172, and I'm glad I did. After getting used to the speed and complexity of the Apache (and an Apache is nowhere near as fast as a lance), the 172 seemed to just give me so much more time to scan, act, and react. So the Apache helped me deal with things at a quicker speed, which translated to being sharper in the 172 just because I'd respond sooner to changes.

Just my two cents. I'm still relatively low time.
 
boydbischke said:
I'm about 20 hours into my flight instruction, and I'm about to buy a 1978 Piper Turbo Lance II T-Tail. I've been training in a 172 and am starting to get a pretty good feel for it.

I'm wondering your thoughts of completing my training and Checkride in the Lance.
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PASS

Learn in something slow and simple to make you good at the basics.
You have to walk before you can run.
 
I know that you probably don't want to hear this but I was once in similar spot to wanting a fast hot plane half way through training. Don't do it. Finish in a trainer. Then get high performance complex checkouts and try different aircraft. You will be glad and thank me later. I thought at one point 3 years ago that I wanted a Mooney until I flew one and then flew a 182. I am a big guy and like more comfort flying places. The Mooney was not the one for me. So now I am glad to have waited.
 
The dude realizes he needs a turbo Lance to fulfil his requirements, why the hell would people say not to get one?:dunno: There's no problem stepping right into one, it'll just be most efficient if he finishes his PP ride in the 172.
 
I bought a 182RG during the cross-country phase of my training. I finished my training in the Warriors I had started in and the day after my checkride got in the Skylane for the first time. Let me tell you, it was A LOT of airplane for me. I was completely overwhelmed for a couple hours. But after the 20 hours of insurance-mandated dual I was cut loose to solo it (needed 50 hours before I could take pax, last 30 could be solo) I felt pretty good flying it. I definitely would not have wanted to change airplanes in the middle of my private... That's a lot of airplane with a lot of systems management and speed management while you're concentrating on safely operating it and passing a checkride. Also, the more complicated the systems of the airplane you're flying for the checkride the more the examiner expects you to know about the systems and their limitations. Do you really want to go in-depth on explaining shock cooling right now?

I don't regret waiting to fly my Skylane at all. You will have lots of time to fly your Lance after you've finished your private and gotten proficient in the Lance.
 
My Dad had 15hrs in a Piper Colt and had soloed when he bought a Comanche 250. He finished up his PPL in it in around 50 hrs. He started his instrument in it and bought a Twin Comanche halfway through that and finished the instrument in it. Don
 
...can't comment on the complex but I have done all but about the first 5 hours in a high performance (Cherokee 235). That's a no brainer...my CFI called it the "Right Rudder signoff".

I agree with the others - train in what you are going to take to the checkride and keep it as simple as possible.
 
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