Checkride in a 182RG

[wabower]

Ongoing training is required for bigger planes by either the FAA or the insurance companies, so I don't have a choice. I pay for training whether I like it or not. The training is far from perfect, but it forces pilots to fly an airplane or a sim and be evaluated, which doesn't often happen with small-plane owners and pilots. The FR's are a joke an everybody knows it. One hour of ground and flight every two years? GMAB.

And the results of the exercise of the "grown-up" judgement that you tout are part of the littered landscape. It's well-established that self-evaluation is not a valid measure of pilot proficiency.

So how often, then, have you hired a DPE to do a voluntary 709 check ride? Is there even a mechanism for volunteering for a 709 ride? I haven't looked.

Cost isn't at the top of my list. Safety, followed by proficiency, followed by learning new things -- HP, complex, instruments, glass panel. Those top my list. I'll do what I feel I need to maintain proficiency and skill, and as a grownup I think I can make my own judgment about that. If I ever feel the need for a second opinion, the landscape is also littered with CFIs looking for work. And of course there's the BFR, which is a mandatory check every two years without the impact of a 709.

 

[Mafoo]

And the results of the exercise of the "grown-up" judgement that you tout are part of the littered landscape. It's well-established that self-evaluation is not a valid measure of pilot proficiency.

I am not sure I would go that far.

let's say you gave 1000 people a gun who had never seen one, and said learn how to shoot, and all you get to eat, is what you kill.

If 50 died of starvation, you can attribute that to a lack of training. But 950 people would have demonstrated that one can learn on there own.

10's of thousands of GA flights happen every day with no issues. Obviously the ones who die more often are those with a lack of training, however that does not mean everyone needs more of it.

 

[Gubbins]

Very interesting discussion. Since I got my IR in July of 2011, I have probably been flying with a CFI at least 10 times (don't have my log book in front of me right now). This is not because I "suck" it is because I am a firm believer in keeping myself at the same level I was when I took my checkrides. In fact I have scheduled a ride with a CFI next week and what I usually ask is "please challenge me". You don't have to practice partial panel non-precision approaches to minimums for IR currency, but I want that to remain ready in case something like that happens to me.

One of the biggest problems in GA from what I can see is that some people want to fly, but can't really afford to. I'm talking about those of us who fly for recreation, not for work. So they get tempted to skimp on maintenance, on training (only doing the bare minimum that is legal) or don't fly enough to remain proficient (because avgas or rentals are too expensive).

 

[Mafoo]

Very interesting discussion. Since I got my IR in July of 2011, I have probably been flying with a CFI at least 10 times (don't have my log book in front of me right now). This is not because I "suck" it is because I am a firm believer in keeping myself at the same level I was when I took my checkrides. In fact I have scheduled a ride with a CFI next week and what I usually ask is "please challenge me". You don't have to practice partial panel non-precision approaches to minimums for IR currency, but I want that to remain ready in case something like that happens to me.

I think this is great.

Wayne thinks your approach is insufficient, because you are a poor judge of your proficiency.

Dale thinks people like you (and he feels he is one of them), are adequately capable of making sure they are a safe aviator.

I tend to agree with Dale on this one.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Going back and reading, you have 22 hours. Even if you have to (like I did) spend another 50 hours before carrying passengers you still have a ton of stuff to learn. Expect at least 10 hours just catching up to the airplane, another 10 or so getting used to it and then probably 20 getting really familiar and comfortable. The last 10 you'll probably really start to feel "at home" in the airplane and the checklists will flow really easily.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but you will spend a lot of time higher than maneuvering speed is, so you may need to slow it down for things like steep turns to get closer to that speed (112 in my plane). You'll also have to plan descents a lot more than you would in your average trainer because these airplanes really don't wanna slow down. Don't forget on your emergency stuff to throw the gear, because the gear horn will be whailing from the time the power is pulled until you do that. I think if you get your training in your plane, you will have a much better understanding of things that private pilots don't necessarily practice every day, like engine outs (I still have the flow for a PA-28 down pat), stalls, steep turns.. a lot of those things just don't get practiced as much as they should once you get your ticket. This way you'll be learning everything in your plane and not have to go back later and figure it out.

 

[wabower]

At your level of experience I might have felt the same way.

I am not sure I would go that far.

let's say you gave 1000 people a gun who had never seen one, and said learn how to shoot, and all you get to eat, is what you kill.

If 50 died of starvation, you can attribute that to a lack of training. But 950 people would have demonstrated that one can learn on there own.

10's of thousands of GA flights happen every day with no issues. Obviously the ones who die more often are those with a lack of training, however that does not mean everyone needs more of it.

 

[wabower]

I think this is great.

Wayne thinks your approach is insufficient, because you are a poor judge of your proficiency.

Dale thinks people like you (and he feels he is one of them), are adequately capable of making sure they are a safe aviator.

I tend to agree with Dale on this one.

Not surprising since both of you quickly mentioned cost as a factor.

 

[DaleB]

Not surprising since both of you quickly mentioned cost as a factor.

What's that got to do with it? Of course cost is a factor. Time is a factor too, since I don't fly for a living (can't afford to). That doesn't mean we're going to blithely ignore training from now on.

Am I understanding correctly that you think the only way to be sure a pilot is safe and proficient is by frequent, on-record check rides with a DPE? Or do you just think that every private pilot flying for personal transportation and recreation should have a more stringent mandatory recurring training and re-certification requirement? If that's your position, I guess you could always try to get the FAA to agree and make it part of the regs.

 

[Mafoo]

Not surprising since both of you quickly mentioned cost as a factor.

Cost is the reason I chose to buy a share plane, and not my own.

I could pay enough to own my own plane, however that would cause me to cut corners I don't wish to cut.

Cost has caused me to drive down the luxury of aircraft ownership, because I am not willing to sacrifice safety.

There are some people in the world Wayne, that realize this without the FAA telling them.

 

[DaleB]

There are some people in the world Wayne, that realize this without the FAA telling them.

But apparently we're doomed to crash and further litter the landscape.

Sorry, that was unkind. Withdrawn.

 

[wabower]

I'm not advocating FAA involvement in any way. Flying with anybody that can provide an objective level of performance is usually sufficient, depending on the pilot's attitude about his short-comings. When you get far enough along to ride with other pilots in such a capacity, I think you'll see the problem from a different perspective. If we ever find a way to impute some judgement along with the training, we'll really think we won the lottery.

What's that got to do with it? Of course cost is a factor. Time is a factor too, since I don't fly for a living (can't afford to). That doesn't mean we're going to blithely ignore training from now on.

Am I understanding correctly that you think the only way to be sure a pilot is safe and proficient is by frequent, on-record check rides with a DPE? Or do you just think that every private pilot flying for personal transportation and recreation should have a more stringent mandatory recurring training and re-certification requirement? If that's your position, I guess you could always try to get the FAA to agree and make it part of the regs.

 

[DaleB]

Flying with anybody that can provide an objective level of performance is usually sufficient, depending on the pilot's attitude about his short-comings.

Hmmm... I could swear that was exactly what I was advocating. Maybe I didn't specifically say that.

We may be close to violent agreement.