Checklists

[MAKG1]

Pretakeoff section of my 172 checklist:
Doors - closed
Seat belts - on
Controls - free/correct
Instruments/radios - set
Fuel selector - both
Mixture - best power
Carb heat - off
Mags - checked
Gauges - green

I know that RPM goes to 1700 for the runup. I know that the passengers receive a briefing. I know to stand on the brakes and back it up with the parking brake during the runup. I know to set the vents or cabin heat as needed. Simple plane, simple checklist.

Mixture to best power at sea level airports? Really? Unless you're the one guy who operates out of Bonny Doon and it's summer, something's not right.

There is also more to a run up than a mag check. It sucks when you discover your carb heat doesn't work on a marine-layer day.

Many of these checklists can be simplified a lot, but this one isn't right.

Despite being lengthy, the factory ones are not complete. Cessna singles don't seem to extend the flaps during preflight, and I've found some binding and track damage before. And the 172 checklist I went over yesterday never checked the lights or pitot heat. Sure it was day VFR, but the beacon is still required and the list is not for day VFR only.

My own two page (half size, to fit on a kneeboard) checklist has all this, as does my preflight flow.

 

[JOhnH]

My wife and I use a check list every flight. If there is something we don't want to forget, no matter how trivial and obvious, it is on the check list.
Call us nerds or wimps or trainees or whatever, but there is nothing macho about being able to get your plane in the air without a check list. Until you don't. But our checklist is less than 1 8.5x11 in sheet of paper.

We even have "gear down" in 3 places on the pre-landing list, just in case we get tired and forget.

And it also makes new pax feel more comfortable.

 

[timwinters]

Anyone recall what that single omission was?

Canopy Latched...IIRC.

But, since I don't have my PoA checklist in front of me, I may not be recalling correctly!

 

[FastEddieB]

Canopy Latched...IIRC.

But, since I don't have my PoA checklist in front of me, I may not be recalling correctly!

Good memory!

Item #6 on BEFORE TAKEOFF:

Somehow, years ago hunched over my Mac and streamlining a multi-page checklist, I got carried away, forgetting that important item!

As a side note, since I went to an LED landing light it goes ON after engine start and stays on until after landing. I also added a brake check on the BEFORE LANDING checklist.

 

[Henning]

But I put 'Checklist' on the top of each page...

You mislabeled it. Seriously though, this is an exemplar of the issue under discussion, the misunderstanding in GA of what a "Checklist" actually is, and how one applies it.

His stems from a fundamental flaw in training of teaching from the checklist.

I never see a CFI introduce a procedure through its flow. When you get further along in a career flying, you will have your flow procedures memorized before you ever get in the plane or sim.

It's a failure in primacy effect to not introduce flows into training until the airline level IMO. It should be introduced on lesson one, and rather than use the study guide as a checklist, proper checklists should be created as well.

 

[timwinters]

BTW...this seems to be yet another "if you don't do it my way then you're an idiot" thread.

Whether a person uses a 1 page or 15 page "checklist," or even none at all but has it committed to memory, if it works for them and keeps them safe then what's the problem?

Different people have differing ways of learning/operating and different "tickler" needs.

 

[FastEddieB]

Whether a person uses a 1 page or 15 page "checklist," or even none at all but has it committed to memory, if it works for them and keeps them safe then what's the problem?

I agree there's no problem if one has a method that keeps them safe and is relatively foolproof.

CFI's, and not just "spotty faced teenage flying instructors", need to teach to the FAA standards, and I find incorporating those standards into my flying helps keep me from being a hypocrite:

To review, from the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards:

Applicant’s Use of Checklists

Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of an approved manufacturer’s checklist or equivalent. If no manufacturer’s checklist is published, the appropriate FAA handbook or equivalent checklist may be used. Proper use is dependent on the specific Task being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the checklist, while accomplishing elements of an objective, would be either unsafe or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been accomplished would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.

So, for me, someone not using a checklist on a BFR would not meet the standards set for even the Private Pilot checkride, and would not likely get a signoff from me.

 

[James331]

Here's a current version of mine, I have a few things on there I don't really need (speeds), but hey.

It's printed, folded in half and laminated with the thick stuff, I keep a version in fore flight too.

 

[FastEddieB]

For newcomers, here's a link to my post about my incident:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1384445

 

[OkieAviator]

You mislabeled it. Seriously though, this is an exemplar of the issue under discussion, the misunderstanding in GA of what a "Checklist" actually is, and how one applies it.

His stems from a fundamental flaw in training of teaching from the checklist.

I never see a CFI introduce a procedure through its flow. When you get further along in a career flying, you will have your flow procedures memorized before you ever get in the plane or sim.

It's a failure in primacy effect to not introduce flows into training until the airline level IMO. It should be introduced on lesson one, and rather than use the study guide as a checklist, proper checklists should be created as well.

When I first started my CFI had me use the multipage 'checklist' that was in the plane. Taught me to do then verify using the list. He said everything has a 'flow' but you need to understand what you're looking at before you can get the flow down. That's why I put together my study guide, checklist, whatever we are going to call it. For all in cockpit procedures he taught me some type of flow, gumps, cigars ect, lcheck and reverse lcheck as he called it for emergency power. However he had me use a premise checklist because he didn't want the DPE to scrutinize a homemade one. So in my case my CFI didn't focus on dependency of the checklist, he preferred do and verify with the checklist, reference, manual study guide or whatever we call it.

 

[Henning]

BTW...this seems to be yet another "if you don't do it my way then you're an idiot" thread.

Whether a person uses a 1 page or 15 page "checklist," or even none at all but has it committed to memory, if it works for them and keeps them safe then what's the problem?

Different people have differing ways of learning/operating and different "tickler" needs.

It's not so much 'you're an idiot', but more 'you're setting yourself up for a failure' by not using them correctly. There is a reason that military and airline pilots are taught to operate in memorized flows and verify with lists, it provides a cross check into the system as designed. You make check lists one page so you don't waste attention flipping through pages.

If you use the checklist as a guide and follow it through the procedure, you are at high risk for missing a step, and then you put the checklist away without ever using it to check your work.

Check lists are not intended to operate with, but rather to check your work against on completion.

 

[eetrojan]

It's not so much 'you're an idiot', but more 'you're setting yourself up for a failure' by not using them correctly. There is a reason that military and airline pilots are taught to operate in memorized flows and verify with lists, it provides a cross check into the system as designed. You make check lists one page so you don't waste attention flipping through pages.

If you use the checklist as a guide and follow it through the procedure, you are at high risk for missing a step, and then you put the checklist away without ever using it to check your work.

Check lists are not intended to operate with, but rather to check your work against on completion.

I'm all for flows that you run without using the checklist as a "do list," but am still unclear about the content of the checklist you advocate for purposes of confirming the completeness of the steps executed in your flow.

After running your flow, should you check your flow against a list that matches your flow but is very broad and summary in nature, or check your flow against a list that is more detailed and granular in nature?

Or, is that just a personal preference?

 

[James331]

All your checklist/flow questions answered.

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Cockpit Checklists.pdf

Done

 

[OkieAviator]

I'm all for flows that you run without using the checklist as a "do list," but am still unclear about the content of the checklist you advocate for purposes of confirming the completeness of the steps executed in your flow.

After running your flow, should you check your flow against a list that matches your flow but is very broad and summary in nature, or check your flow against a list that is more detailed and granular in nature?

Or, is that just a personal preference?

Here is a version of mine. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77516&highlight=Checklist

 

[FastEddieB]

All your checklist/flow questions answered.

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Cockpit Checklists.pdf

Done

Thanks.

In my reading list!

 

[timwinters]

It's not so much 'you're an idiot', but more 'you're setting yourself up for a failure' by not using them correctly. There is a reason that military and airline pilots are taught to operate in memorized flows and verify with lists, it provides a cross check into the system as designed. You make check lists one page so you don't waste attention flipping through pages.

If you use the checklist as a guide and follow it through the procedure, you are at high risk for missing a step, and then you put the checklist away without ever using it to check your work.

Check lists are not intended to operate with, but rather to check your work against on completion.

And which system were you using when you arrived at Appleton last August?

Sorry for the blatant slam but I'm not buying your BS. Anyone can fail regardless of the system they're using. Just use what you're most comfortable with and stay as safe as possible.

"There but for the grace of God goes I" and all that. I neither share your aviation arrogance nor do I feel that I know and have the answer to everything.

 

[Henning]

I'm all for flows that you run without using the checklist as a "do list," but am still unclear about the content of the checklist you advocate for purposes of confirming the completeness of the steps executed in your flow.

After running your flow, should you check your flow against a list that matches your flow but is very broad and summary in nature, or check your flow against a list that is more detailed and granular in nature?

Or, is that just a personal preference?

You design a flow to maintain natural continuity of sight and motion through the process, this is what minimizes the risk of missing something, you're not jumping around. The checklist procedure benefits exactly the same, so to make the check list order match the flow pattern is the natural outcome if you are looking for best result.

What I do is break the flow and check list into matching sectors of function and then look at that grouping to see if the conditions/changes listed were executed.

 

[FastEddieB]

Tim raises a good point:

You preach a good game.

So what DID happen?

 

[Henning]

Tim raises a good point:

You preach a good game.

So what DID happen?

To me for the gear up? Fatigue caught up with me and I broke discipline, simple as that, human error. I had pushed too hard for a solid week to get to that point, that when I got there, I was not fit to fly.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

 

[Henning]

And which system were you using when you arrived at Appleton last August?

Sorry for the blatant slam but I'm not buying your BS. Anyone can fail regardless of the system they're using. Just use what you're most comfortable with and stay as safe as possible.

"There but for the grace of God goes I" and all that. I neither share your aviation arrogance nor do I feel that I know and have the answer to everything.

I wasn't using any. I didn't say any system will prevent failure. Systems don't fail or succeed, systems just provide a path. Regardless the path, if you choose not to follow it, the outcome will be altered.

The issue here is an issue of degree, of buying down the odds some. If what I say is BS, then why is it what the US military and airlines teach?

Just because I can **** something up doesn't make it wrong. I can **** up nearly anything and have spent a lifetime doing it. That's how I learn, I'm not afraid to **** up. God finds it amusing so I survive.

 

[MauleSkinner]

For piston airplanes (and granted, I've never flown a DC-6 or B-17, but I dont think that's the general topic of this thread), I've never met one where a "CIGAR TIPPS" flow didn't get everything done before takeoff, and a quick run through whatever checklist happened to be in the airplane verified it.

For me, different wording/format also helps jog my attention when I get complacent and miss something on he flow.

 

[asicer]

My wife and I use a check list every flight.
[...]

And it also makes new pax feel more comfortable.

My coworker was telling me about his first flight in a GA plane with his boss who had just gotten his PPL. After a minute or two with the checklist, his reaction was "I thought you already learned how to fly? Did you forget already?"

 

[Somedudeintn]

This thread has caused me to think about my checklist usage a little more. I have been taught, and have always followed it as a "do" list, and don't really have secondary step of checking after I've moved on from the item.

I found an article that echo's some of the sentiment here that also explains the "CIGAR TIPS" checklist (I found this article trying to figure out what CIGAR TIPS stood for).
http://macsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/046-050_leftseatJUNE.pdf

Makes me want to experiment with coming up with a flow for each of my flight items and verifying it with the checklist (which I only do now for my exterior pre-flight check).

 

[timwinters]

If what I say is BS, then why is it what the US military and airlines teach?

They both pay tens of thousands of dollars for a coffee pot too. I don't think I'll be following their lead on that front anytime soon either.

And it's BS because that's your forte.

 

[Henning]

They both pay tens of thousands of dollars for a coffee pot too. I don't think I'll be following their lead on that front anytime soon either.

And it's BS because that's your forte.

Wow, I never figured you for stupid before, huh.

 

[JOhnH]

My coworker was telling me about his first flight in a GA plane with his boss who had just gotten his PPL. After a minute or two with the checklist, his reaction was "I thought you already learned how to fly? Did you forget already?"

There is that.
But when we fly, I read the checklist and she performs the operation and says "Check". People say it looks "professional". (remember, she's the pilot and I'm the old man that lost his medical years ago). It's not like one of us are struggling with an instruction manual trying to figure out where the key start is.

 

[kenjr]

I've flown the same plane for almost 200 hours now. It's all about the flow. I use the checklists now to make sure I didn't forget anything at various stages of the flight. We've got a custom one that one of the other pilots put together for our Cherokee and it's the size of a half sheet of paper long wise front/back. The 2nd half of the back is some power curve info so the checklist portion is short and concise.

We also have a takeoff/landing mini placard on the panel that I usually triple check each flight outside of the checklist.

For me, it's all about the flow - especially startup/shutdown.

 

[bgdriveway]

You mislabeled it. Seriously though, this is an exemplar of the issue under discussion, the misunderstanding in GA of what a "Checklist" actually is, and how one applies it.

His stems from a fundamental flaw in training of teaching from the checklist.

I never see a CFI introduce a procedure through its flow. When you get further along in a career flying, you will have your flow procedures memorized before you ever get in the plane or sim.

It's a failure in primacy effect to not introduce flows into training until the airline level IMO. It should be introduced on lesson one, and rather than use the study guide as a checklist, proper checklists should be created as well.

Would you have a copy of a checklist that you use or share what things are on the checklist you use. I realize different aircraft have different requirements, but there is some cross over. I am trying to come up with my own that's as universal as it can be for most single engine A/C, but in this case, right now I am flying an Arrow.

 

[James331]

They both pay tens of thousands of dollars for a coffee pot too. I don't think I'll be following their lead on that front anytime soon either.

And it's BS because that's your forte.

Check lists are VERY important, there is a reason it's a special emphasis area in the PTS, even for a fixed gear.

For a RG, even more so,

makes it near impossible to gear up if used properly

In a amphib, it's even more important than a RG, gear up on a runway and it's going to cost you some paint and maybe a new keel.

Gear down on water.... well

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56IoiW8n5mc

 

[ateamer]

Mixture to best power at sea level airports? Really? Unless you're the one guy who operates out of Bonny Doon and it's summer, something's not right.



There is also more to a run up than a mag check. It sucks when you discover your carb heat doesn't work on a marine-layer day.



Many of these checklists can be simplified a lot, but this one isn't right.



Despite being lengthy, the factory ones are not complete. Cessna singles don't seem to extend the flaps during preflight, and I've found some binding and track damage before. And the 172 checklist I went over yesterday never checked the lights or pitot heat. Sure it was day VFR, but the beacon is still required and the list is not for day VFR only.



My own two page (half size, to fit on a kneeboard) checklist has all this, as does my preflight flow.

There actually times when I venture to airports well above sea level. I do check carb heat, and then during the checklist verify that it is off.

As far as preflight goes, I extend the flaps fully, as well as turn on all lights and pitot heat. If a light doesn't work, I want to find out before nighttime, and if the pitot hear doesn't work or will trip the breaker, I want to know before being in IMC.

 

[Sluggo63]

There is a reason that military and airline pilots are taught to operate in memorized flows and verify with lists, it provides a cross check into the system as designed.

If what I say is BS, then why is it what the US military and airlines teach?

I was actually going to post on here earlier, but decided not to... but since you brought it up...

My experience in the military is that we use our checklist in our airplane (KC-135) as what you would call a 'do' list.

The copilot reads the item, the pilot accomplishes the item and gives the proper response.

Copilot: "Hydraulic systems"
Pilot (positions a couple switches, waits for pressure): "Pressurized"

...and so it goes through the whole checklist.

That's why we step to the jet 1+15 before takeoff. We also don't have a flight engineer.

I spent four years as a T-37 instructor, and when the students were starting out, they went line by line to learn the steps, but basically after a few sorties a natural 'flow' developed and we were okay with them using a flow to get the jet set up, then skimming the checklist to make sure they had accomplished everything.

When it was two IPs flying together, I don't think the checklist ever got opened.

Part of our KC-135 mentality may be due to the fact that it's a jet from a by-gone era, and there are a lot of things we do which are held over from a different time.

I am hoping Gucci will chime in here, since he's a KC-10 guy and since that's basically a newer COTS airplane, I'm curious if those guys use flows or our style of "challenge and response" checklists.

Now... at the airline, it's all flows, with a few checklists we run to make sure everything was set up correctly when we did our flows. The bad thing about the 'flow' style is that it's easy to lose your place if you get interrupted. Fueler comes in to ask about the final fuel. Ramp agent comes in wanting you to inspect some cargo. Most times, if I get out of my habit pattern, I'll go back and skim my entire flow again (it doesn't take too long) to make sure I didn't miss anything.

The AF "challenge and response" reduces that a little bit since you can hold your finger on the item your were accomplishing and you know right where you are.

I use both styles interchangeably depending on whether I'm wearing green nomex or blue polyester and I don't think one is necessarily better then the other. For the KC-135... the "do" list works, for the MD-11 (now 777) the flows work. For my Cherokee 6, I use a flow, unless I haven't flown it in a while, then I'll pull out my checklist and make sure I did everything I needed to.

 

[Henning]

Would you have a copy of a checklist that you use or share what things are on the checklist you use. I realize different aircraft have different requirements, but there is some cross over. I am trying to come up with my own that's as universal as it can be for most single engine A/C, but in this case, right now I am flying an Arrow.

I do not have a current example. When I buy an aircraft or am checking out in something I'm going to fly a lot on a job, creating my own checklists is part of my process of learning the plane, same for building the flows, because it makes you really look at and think about things.

So using the POH/AFM, I work out the flow for the procedure and write it into my check list organized to remind me of the things I am likely to not think of. Then I cross reference it with the Aircaft check list to see if they had something I was missing.

By the time you are done with the process, you now know your flows, and have a fast reference checklist optimized to the way you think and act. If you really think your way through the Emergency Action flows, you will come away with a thorough knowledge of the systems as well.

I don't want a single checklist for all planes, that's what acronyms are for.

 

[Henning]

I was actually going to post on here earlier, but decided not to... but since you brought it up...

My experience in the military is that we use our checklist in our airplane (KC-135) as what you would call a 'do' list.

The copilot reads the item, the pilot accomplishes the item and gives the proper response.

Copilot: "Hydraulic systems"
Pilot (positions a couple switches, waits for pressure): "Pressurized"

...and so it goes through the whole checklist.

That's why we step to the jet 1+15 before takeoff. We also don't have a flight engineer.

I spent four years as a T-37 instructor, and when the students were starting out, they went line by line to learn the steps, but basically after a few sorties a natural 'flow' developed and we were okay with them using a flow to get the jet set up, then skimming the checklist to make sure they had accomplished everything.

When it was two IPs flying together, I don't think the checklist ever got opened.

Part of our KC-135 mentality may be due to the fact that it's a jet from a by-gone era, and there are a lot of things we do which are held over from a different time.

I am hoping Gucci will chime in here, since he's a KC-10 guy and since that's basically a newer COTS airplane, I'm curious if those guys use flows or our style of "challenge and response" checklists.

Now... at the airline, it's all flows, with a few checklists we run to make sure everything was set up correctly when we did our flows. The bad thing about the 'flow' style is that it's easy to lose your place if you get interrupted. Fueler comes in to ask about the final fuel. Ramp agent comes in wanting you to inspect some cargo. Most times, if I get out of my habit pattern, I'll go back and skim my entire flow again (it doesn't take too long) to make sure I didn't miss anything.

The AF "challenge and response" reduces that a little bit since you can hold your finger on the item your were accomplishing and you know right where you are.

I use both styles interchangeably depending on whether I'm wearing green nomex or blue polyester and I don't think one is necessarily better then the other. For the KC-135... the "do" list works, for the MD-11 (now 777) the flows work. For my Cherokee 6, I use a flow, unless I haven't flown it in a while, then I'll pull out my checklist and make sure I did everything I needed to.

If you are two pilot it makes less difference since the cross check is built in by two people doing it simultaneously. Single pilot working it as a "do list" the list is only gone through once losing the "check" function.

 

[Bonanza]

For newcomers, here's a link to my post about my incident:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1384445

So, I got out my personalized checklist to see how I might have missed “Canopy - CLOSED AND LATCHED”, and guess what? It’s nowhere to be found.

The checklist that came with the Sky Arrow was about four pages long and contained so much extraneous stuff I streamlined it to essentials. Somehow I forgot to include the canopy check. Yikes!

and after a story like this you have the nerve to say to me that you would not sign me off because I don't use a checklist.
You are obviously so tied to a check list that if it isn't on there you can't think clearly enough to realize it needs to be done.
Personally I prefer my way to yours. I would have caught your dumb mistake as part of my pre-flight mantra that I mentioned earlier.
If you are going to be a thoughtless slave to a checklist better make sure that it is 100 pages long and that every possible eventuality is covered, or be prepared for your canopy to come open in flight because it wasn't written down in black and white to check it.
Stephen.

 

[dmspilot]

Flows are for people who fly the same airplane day in and day out, for example, airline and military pilots. These pilots also have things called type ratings which of course involve intensive training for a particular airplane. Airlines also have two pilots. The comparison to student and private pilots, especially those who may rent all different models, is apples and oranges.

 

[timwinters]

Check lists are VERY important,

I know, I use them, and other aids too.

Flows are for people who fly the same airplane day in and day out, for example, airline and military pilots. These pilots also have things called type ratings which of course involve intensive training for a particular airplane. Airlines also have two pilots. The comparison to student and private pilots, especially those who may rent all different models, is apples and oranges.

Very good point.

 

[JOhnH]

If you are two pilot it makes less difference since the cross check is built in by two people doing it simultaneously. Single pilot working it as a "do list" the list is only gone through once losing the "check" function.

I'm not so sure about that. With two pilots, there is always the "I thought you did that!" problem.

 

[FastEddieB]

and after a story like this you have the nerve to say to me that you would not sign me off because I don't use a checklist.
You are obviously so tied to a check list that if it isn't on there you can't think clearly enough to realize it needs to be done.
Personally I prefer my way to yours. I would have caught your dumb mistake as part of my pre-flight mantra that I mentioned earlier.
If you are going to be a thoughtless slave to a checklist better make sure that it is 100 pages long and that every possible eventuality is covered, or be prepared for your canopy to come open in flight because it wasn't written down in black and white to check it.
Stephen.

Stephen,

Thanks for that!

I always appreciate an informed and dispassionate discussion.

 

[jsstevens]

Why so long? All you really need is;
Pre Flight..............kick tire
Engine Start..........light fire

You forgot:

Emergency: Put fire out, squeak tires