Checklists

bgdriveway

bgdriveway

Pre-takeoff checklist
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bgdriveway
Why do people like making such busy, complicated check lists for small airplanes? When I was flying in a King Air, Normal procedures was one side of a page, two columns. Emergency was the other side, two columns.

Get in a Warrior or Skyhawk, your talking 15 pages to find what to check before doing your run up.

Does anyone have good ones that aren't so busy? What memory aids do you use to assist with flows or a memorized checklist such as GUMPS or the like? What are the things that will kill you or get you in a world of hurt that you check and double check?
 
Learning how to do a good flow check for your airframe is huge.

IMO a proper checklist should be no more then a single sheet of paper, folded longways, print front and back.

Think a big part of the 15 page checklist problem, is not understanding its a check list, not a do list.
 
I agree, those "busy" printed checklists are next to worthless, I made my own about the size of a standard playing card hand printed on both sides. Maybe sixteen items altogether, just a memory jogger basically....something to draw my attention to items to be dealt with.
 
15 pages?

My checklist fits on one side of a 8.5x11 sheet of paper. I fold it I half and laminate with heavy duty stock, it's a smaller version of the checklists from the POH.

I've always intended to make a color coded one with symbols for emergencies, but have never gotten around to it.
 
One of the nicest parts of glass: Built-in, customizable checklists that you can't lose.

We have spent a year tweaking ours. Finally got 'em to where we both like 'em. :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
One of the nicest parts of glass: Built-in, customizable checklists that you can't lose.

We have spent a year tweaking ours. Finally got 'em to where we both like 'em. :)
Click to expand...


my new best friend

Avidynescreenshot6.png
 
Bryan, do you take out the screen every time you do a walk around or just sometimes?
 
My checklist:

Before Start....................."All Aboard"
Before Takeoff.......All Engines Running
After Takeoff.......................Gear Up
Cruise...........................Copilot Flies
Emergency..............................Land
Before Landing..................Gear Down
After Landing...............All Engines Off
Post Flight......................At Hotel Bar
 
As a student, I made my own checklist fir the 172. One page, landscape, three columns. On the back was the emergency stuff, with headings color coded (red for fire, blue for fuel, yellow for electrical, etc). I laminated it and folded it in thirds, great for cockpit use as well as walk around.

The one for my Mooney is a booklet ( landscape format, folded in half; Word will arrange everything to print on both sides to make it all come out right), and because each sheet is 4 pages, I included edited Performance Tables from the Owners Manual (covering 2300-2600 RPM at each altitude up to 12,500 in 2500' steps). I keep it on my kneeboard, with blank paper for notes inserted at the Runup section.
 
Zeldman said:
My checklist:

Before Start....................."All Aboard"
Before Takeoff.......All Engines Running
After Takeoff.......................Gear Up
Cruise...........................Copilot Flies
Emergency..............................Land
Before Landing..................Gear Down
After Landing...............All Engines Off
Post Flight......................At Hotel Bar
Click to expand...

Love it, stole it.
 
Zeldman said:
My checklist:

Before Start....................."All Aboard"
Before Takeoff.......All Engines Running
After Takeoff.......................Gear Up
Cruise...........................Copilot Flies
Emergency..............................Land
Before Landing..................Gear Down
After Landing...............All Engines Off
Post Flight......................At Hotel Bar
Click to expand...
Why so long? All you really need is;
Pre Flight..............kick tire
Engine Start..........light fire
 
James331 said:
Learning how to do a good flow check for your airframe is huge.

IMO a proper checklist should be no more then a single sheet of paper, folded longways, print front and back.

Think a big part of the 15 page checklist problem, is not understanding its a check list, not a do list.
Click to expand...

Yep, I just end up making my own, and have them organized to match my flow pattern.
 
There is a NASA paper on how best to lay out a checklist, worth a read for sure.
 
I've posted this before, but here is a Normal Checklist for an Airbus:

a320checklist_zpse0a385c6.png


If a highly advanced airliner can have such a simple checklist, why does a GA bug smasher need 15 pages?
 
RotorAndWing said:
I've posted this before, but here is a Normal Checklist for an Airbus:

a320checklist_zpse0a385c6.png


If a highly advanced airliner can have such a simple checklist, why does a GA bug smasher need 15 pages?
Click to expand...

True, however, how many pages is the list programming the plane to get to this one?;)
 
Henning said:
True, however, how many pages is the list programming the plane to get to this one?;)
Click to expand...

There is a preflight checklist which goes through the cockpit to verify switch positions, oxy mask, etc, a standard cockpit setup.

No checklist for programing the FMS, but one pilot programs and the other verifies against the printed flight plan.
 
I think the big issue is what was mentioned before, most small planes don't really carry check lists, they carry instruction manuals. Literally, they laminate the procedure pages out of the POH, punch a hole in the corner for a ring to put them all on, and call it a checklist.
 
Pretakeoff section of my 172 checklist:
Doors - closed
Seat belts - on
Controls - free/correct
Instruments/radios - set
Fuel selector - both
Mixture - best power
Carb heat - off
Mags - checked
Gauges - green

I know that RPM goes to 1700 for the runup. I know that the passengers receive a briefing. I know to stand on the brakes and back it up with the parking brake during the runup. I know to set the vents or cabin heat as needed. Simple plane, simple checklist.
 
ateamer said:
Pretakeoff section of my 172 checklist:
Doors - closed
Seat belts - on
Controls - free/correct
Instruments/radios - set
Fuel selector - both
Mixture - best power
Carb heat - off
Mags - checked
Gauges - green

I know that RPM goes to 1700 for the runup. I know that the passengers receive a briefing. I know to stand on the brakes and back it up with the parking brake during the runup. I know to set the vents or cabin heat as needed. Simple plane, simple checklist.
Click to expand...

Does closing the doors need to be there? Does Fasten Seat Belts need to be there? Does controls free and correct need to be there? Does Fuel Selector Both need to be there (since it is not a functional requirement)? Does Mags Checked need to be there since it was part of the runnup check?

Fuel- On As Appropriate,
Trim- Set for T/O
Carb Heat & Mixture- As Appropriate
Lights- As Required
Mags- Both
Instruments/Radios- Set
Gauges- Green

That is my 172 Pretakeoff Check List and it follows my 172 flow.
 
ateamer said:
Pretakeoff section of my 172 checklist:
Doors - closed
Seat belts - on
Controls - free/correct
Instruments/radios - set
Fuel selector - both
Mixture - best power
Carb heat - off
Mags - checked
Gauges - green

I know that RPM goes to 1700 for the runup. I know that the passengers receive a briefing. I know to stand on the brakes and back it up with the parking brake during the runup. I know to set the vents or cabin heat as needed. Simple plane, simple checklist.
Click to expand...

yup, keep it simple...

One thing, keep a starting procedure on the checklist if the aircraft has any start-up quirks. I watched an A&P who was unfamiliar try to start the 'kota once...he didn't get it going until after he grabbed the checklist off the glareshield and studied it for a bit.
 
The longer detailed checklists are great for learning.
 
Henning said:
Does closing the doors need to be there? Does Fasten Seat Belts need to be there? Does controls free and correct need to be there? Does Fuel Selector Both need to be there (since it is not a functional requirement)? Does Mags Checked need to be there since it was part of the runnup check?



Fuel- On As Appropriate,

Trim- Set for T/O

Carb Heat & Mixture- As Appropriate

Lights- As Required

Mags- Both

Instruments/Radios- Set

Gauges- Green



That is my 172 Pretakeoff Check List and it follows my 172 flow.
Click to expand...


This is the checklist I use after doing the items, just to confirm they were all done. Runup and checkllist take maybe two minutes.
 
Henning said:
Not if you learn to use them as "do lists" instead of "check lists."
Click to expand...

Well when they're that size that's basically what they are. It really helped me understand what I was looking for.
 
I notice a lot of those big checklists have basic pilot knowledge stuff in them such as:

ATIS/AWOS -- OBTAIN
DEPARTURE/TAXI CLEARANCE -- OBTAIN/CONTACT

unnecessary...
 
OkieAviator said:
Well when they're that size that's basically what they are. It really helped me understand what I was looking for.
Click to expand...

It's not the format that matters, it's HOW you use them. If you use them going through them item by item and performing them as you go, you are using them incorrectly. You should know the items, you should perform the items, then you should refer to the list to make sure you didn't miss any of the items.

A checklist shouldn't teach you or help you understand anything, its only function is to serve as a reminder, not instructor. If it does what you are claiming for you, you reinforce the point others are raising here, and that is the inappropriate construction of what is being referenced to as a checklist in GA.

It's ok to refer to a manual to learn, the issue is learning that to be representative of "check list procedure" because it is not, and if you learn that it is, there is a critical failure in your learning that will hinder you going forward.
 
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bgdriveway said:
Why do people like making such busy, complicated check lists for small airplanes? When I was flying in a King Air, Normal procedures was one side of a page, two columns. Emergency was the other side, two columns.

Get in a Warrior or Skyhawk, your talking 15 pages to find what to check before doing your run up.

Does anyone have good ones that aren't so busy? What memory aids do you use to assist with flows or a memorized checklist such as GUMPS or the like? What are the things that will kill you or get you in a world of hurt that you check and double check?
Click to expand...

I really like the checkmate checklists. I've got one for a 172 and one for a da-20 and feel that both are very complete with all of the normal items organized well on the front, and all emergency procedures on the back. They are not flimsy and are laminated so they will last a long time.

If I ever go to get checked out in another plane, I will buy another one of their checklists.
 
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Henning said:
It's not the format that matters, it's HOW you use them. If you use them going through them item by item and performing them as you go, you are using them incorrectly. You should know the items, you should perform the items, then you should refer to the list to make sure you didn't miss any of the items.

A checklist shouldn't teach you or help you understand anything, its only function is to serve as a reminder, not instructor. If it does what you are claiming for you, you reinforce the point others are raising here, and that is the inappropriate construction of what is being referenced to as a checklist in GA.

It's ok to refer to a manual to learn, the issue is learning that to be representative of "check list procedure" because it is not, and if you learn that it is, there is a critical failure in your learning that will hinder you going forward.
Click to expand...

Not in disagreement.... However that 4 page checklist I made out of the POH items helped me in training. For my 4 hour XC trip today I looked at my most recent flowcheck reference twice. So my point is that I don't see an issue with someone training to use whatever helps them.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I've posted this before, but here is a Normal Checklist for an Airbus:

a320checklist_zpse0a385c6.png


If a highly advanced airliner can have such a simple checklist, why does a GA bug smasher need 15 pages?
Click to expand...
Yea. This. A Checklist isn't a "to do" list. Have a flow and back it up with the checklist.
 
I'm happy to see the expanded procedures in a POH. That removes any question someone might have regarding certain things.

Having something tell me to check ATIS and get a taxi clearance doesn't help if at an uncontrolled field. It's like on a GUMPS check on a fixed gear plane. (Do you say down and welded? It's actually typically bolted on not welded for most planes. And how would you visually check for a low wing?) I still use GUMPS on a 172 or warrior because that's how I learned, but just ignore the undercarrige part. In an Arrow, different story.

Even when I use the one page checklists, (The yellow ones, forget the brand) I find them way too busy and skip over stuff. At that point, am I really using it effectively? Or at all? I've started to make one of my own for an Arrow. Even what I started with seems too much in some ways.
This is the preflight/Before Starting section. Do I really need to tell myself to flight plan? Etc.


1 Flight Plan Complete
2 Documents Check ARROW and Hobbs/Tach Times
3 Fuel Quantity Checked and Tanks Sumped
4 Oil Qty Checked
5 Engine Exhaust Secure, Nothing On Cyls, Alt. Belt Tight
6 Propeller Check for nicks, cracks, & security of spinner
7 Gear Tires, Brakes, Struts Visually Checked
8 Airframe Visually Inspected, Controls move, Cowls and Panels Secure
9 Exterior Electrical Ops Check Lights, Stall Warning, Pitot Heat
10 Passenger Briefing Complete


Even when doing an inspection like an annual, I look at the aircraft in a flow, then go look at the checklist to see what I missed.
 
Does having a 4 pg checklist really help with learning a flow? Or are you relying on 4 pgs of a to do list?

Do we pull out the owners manual in our cars and read, "Insert key fully into the ignition, Turn key 4 clicks until starter engages, release key, ensure seat belts are fastened...." Or do we remember how to do all this and just get in and drive?
 
OkieAviator said:
Not in disagreement.... However that 4 page checklist I made out of the POH items helped me in training. For my 4 hour XC trip today I looked at my most recent flowcheck reference twice. So my point is that I don't see an issue with someone training to use whatever helps them.
Click to expand...

You didn't make a 4 page checklist, you made a 4 page study guide to learn your flows. Use it, study it, memorize it, learn to run it in the cockpit blind folded, truncate it into one page of status checks, burn the 4 page study guide.
 
Henning said:
You didn't make a 4 page checklist, you made a 4 page study guide to learn your flows. Use it, study it, memorize it, learn to run it in the cockpit blind folded, truncate it into one page of status checks, burn the 4 page study guide.
Click to expand...

But I put 'Checklist' on the top of each page...:dunno:
 
I totally agree with all of you who support thinking about what you are doing rather than just reading a checklist by wrote. Personally I don't use a pre-flight checklist. I have owned my Bo for over 25 years and am quite familiar with it by now.
I generally use a printed checklist when I fly an unfamiliar type but do find that most of them have far too many and too obvious tasks.
However I have a mantra that my original instructor drilled into me more years ago than I care to remember. I learned it by heart and I can honestly say that in thousands of hours I have never taken off without saying (and doing) it.
I cannot count the number of times my mantra has prevented me from making a dumb mistake. Thank you Pat Doggett for insisting that I learned it.
Trim - set for take off.
Throttle - Friction nut secure
Mixture - rich (or as required at altitude - but in England , where I learned we didn't have altitude so it was just rich)
Magnetos - both
Carb air - cold
Fuel - on and sufficient
Flaps - up (or as required for takeoff)
Gauges - in the green
Gyros - set
Hatches and harnesses - secure
Controls - full and free
Whatever else you forget, the above will pretty much ensure that you get airborne with everything intact and working as it should.
I have lots of other stupid acronyms like BUMFE (we call it fuel not gas) before landing and HASELL before an aerobatic maneuver.
I keep a printed checklist in the plane, but I can honestly say I haven't referred to it in probably over 20 years.
Ooops ... there was the once when I was doing a BFR with a spotty faced teenage flying instructor and he said he wouldn't sign me off if I didn't use it.
Probably said more about him than it did about me but I used it just to keep the peace.
I am not against checklists and in complex commercial operations they have probably saved many lives but for most of us we should have it memorized and have a good enough understanding of our aircraft and systems to not need them every time we fly.
Stephen.
 
Bonanza said:
I am not against checklists and in complex commercial operations they have probably saved many lives but for most of us we should have it memorized and have a good enough understanding of our aircraft and systems to not need them every time we fly.
Click to expand...

Glad that works for you.

But I think time and experience has shown how fallible memory is for most folks.

Think of all the times people have forgotten to lower their gear, raise their flaps, advance their mixture, turn something on, turn something off, whatever. All things they "forgot" that a checklist would have caught.

Funny story:

All I was doing was starting my Sky Arrow, with no intention of flying, albeit with the help of jumper cables. I ALWAYS use a checklist, but this time I had figured it's so simple - master on, ignitions on, turn key - stone simple enough that the checklist seemed silly. And sure enough it started right up...

...and began rolling forward. By the time I got on the "finger brakes" I had come within inches of rolling right into my Element.

All because I "forgot" how important "Parking Brake....ON" was in a plane without toe brakes.

In any case, feel free to finish your flying career doing exactly what you're doing. It obviously works for you. But it has failed so many others so many times over so many years I would be loathe to recommend it to the general pilot population.

Oh, and I agree with the "spotty faced teenage flying instructor" - I would not have signed you off either.
 
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BTW, here's the custom one I use in my Sky Arrow:

7425328182_617ebc4a21_z.jpg


And this is an earlier version than I use now, which had one important item missing - one that created a very dangerous situation.

Anyone recall what that single omission was?
 
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