jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Mine were verbal. Worked just fine.
Checklists
- Thread starter flyingcheesehead
- Start date
Mine were verbal. Worked just fine.
Auburn_CFI
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think you would have a hard time explaining that your memory serving as a verbal checklist is an accepted method. It defeats the purpose of a checklist.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I didn't have a hard time doing so. Are you telling me that you are close minded enough to say that it's irresponsible for the average piston pilot to not use a written checklist?
etsisk
En-Route
I'm just thinking about how the report would read ...
I imagine explaining it -
"You failed to (fill in the blank). Did you use a checklist?"
"Yep, I used a non-written checklist."
"A non-written checklist?"
"Yep, I just remember everything I need to do."
"Ah. But you forgot ..."
Isn't a lapse of memory exactly what a checklist is designed to overcome?
I imagine explaining it -
"You failed to (fill in the blank). Did you use a checklist?"
"Yep, I used a non-written checklist."
"A non-written checklist?"
"Yep, I just remember everything I need to do."
"Ah. But you forgot ..."
Isn't a lapse of memory exactly what a checklist is designed to overcome?
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Unless the checklist jumps up, slaps you in the face, and yells "Read ME!" at every phase you are still relying on memory in one form or another.
kevin47881
Final Approach
Jesse, while I appreciate your nineteen year old mind is still sharp as a tack, it won't always be that way. Heck, I'm only 40 but with so many other things taking up RAM (work, family, outside activities, etc.) the checklist does come in handy just to make sure I checked what is supposed to be checked.
If nothing else, getting in the habit of using a checklist now will prevent you from learning the habit later in life when it becomes necessary.
This post is worth everything you paid
If nothing else, getting in the habit of using a checklist now will prevent you from learning the habit later in life when it becomes necessary.
This post is worth everything you paid
Auburn_CFI
Pre-takeoff checklist
This isn't an FAA document but I encourage you to read it. I am not the person that came up with the idea that checklists create a safer environment. After you read this let me know what you think.
http://amd.nbc.gov/dts/tsdocs/IA%20TB%20Checklist%20Discipline%2010-19-06.pdf
The following is additional to the original post*
This was taken from NASA's ASRS program. Most of the short segments don't completely apply to GA but this particular part does. Visit http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/callback_issues/PDF_Files/cb_203.pdf for the entire article.
“GUMP” and Other Short-Cuts
Many reporters refer to using GUMP (Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop) as a final pre-landing check. A few reporters have suggested expanded versions of GUMP to help remember additional tasks, such as seatbelts (making GUMPS) or radios (making GRUMP). One reporter wrote to object to the apparent overreliance on such short-cuts:
■ First it was “GUMP.” Then it was “GUMPS.” Now I read “GRUMPS.” Soon it will be “GRAMPS,” or maybe “GRAMS.” What happened to the old fashioned way, namely, using the original checklist that was certificated with the airplane?
GUMP is useful as a supplemental memory-jogger when a pilot's hands are full of landing tasks. However, the reporter makes a valid point: nothing can replace the proper use of the appropriate checklist, whether it is the original checklist, or one suitably customized for the equipment installed in a particular aircraft.
http://amd.nbc.gov/dts/tsdocs/IA%20TB%20Checklist%20Discipline%2010-19-06.pdf
The following is additional to the original post*
This was taken from NASA's ASRS program. Most of the short segments don't completely apply to GA but this particular part does. Visit http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/callback_issues/PDF_Files/cb_203.pdf for the entire article.
“GUMP” and Other Short-Cuts
Many reporters refer to using GUMP (Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop) as a final pre-landing check. A few reporters have suggested expanded versions of GUMP to help remember additional tasks, such as seatbelts (making GUMPS) or radios (making GRUMP). One reporter wrote to object to the apparent overreliance on such short-cuts:
■ First it was “GUMP.” Then it was “GUMPS.” Now I read “GRUMPS.” Soon it will be “GRAMPS,” or maybe “GRAMS.” What happened to the old fashioned way, namely, using the original checklist that was certificated with the airplane?
GUMP is useful as a supplemental memory-jogger when a pilot's hands are full of landing tasks. However, the reporter makes a valid point: nothing can replace the proper use of the appropriate checklist, whether it is the original checklist, or one suitably customized for the equipment installed in a particular aircraft.
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
It all depends on the airplane. I fly single engine pistons with fixed gear. There isn't much of anything to look at on the checklist.
Am I saying that using a checklist is bad? No. Do I use checklists? In unfamiliar airplanes.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
If you only want to be an "average" pilot, well....
Seriously, I expect the NTSB would call it irresponsible if you had a reportable incident/accident because you forgot to do something that would have been called for in the POH or checklist.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Tell me what on a C172 am I going to forget that isn't covered in:
- CIGARS
- Flow from left to right and around on panel
- Pretakeoff engine failure briefing
- Lights, Camera, Action
- CGUMPS
silver-eagle
En-Route
You use a checklist to be sure not to miss anything. It's part of the discipline. I don't use a printed list on the walk around but I do use one inside. I don't use the equipment often enough to be quite so cavalier about flying. If it's on the list, it gets checked.
I've seen and read stories about people that depend on their mental checklists go off flying with the tail anchor or towbar still attached. Or running out of fuel. or not turning on the Mode C.
Nah, it might not be cool to use one, or to admit to using one, but I'll keep mine in the plane until I KNOW I'm perfect.
I've seen and read stories about people that depend on their mental checklists go off flying with the tail anchor or towbar still attached. Or running out of fuel. or not turning on the Mode C.
Nah, it might not be cool to use one, or to admit to using one, but I'll keep mine in the plane until I KNOW I'm perfect.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
There is nothing wrong with using a checklist.
poadeleted20
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In a two-person cockpit under Part 121 with mandatory challenge and reply, I would agree. OTOH, in a light GA plane, FAA Inspectors and DPE's are perfectly happy with memorized checklists or flow checks for routine tasks as long as the system works to accomplish the end goal.
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Not exactly. I ran the pre-startup portion (which is very short), told him that I didn't consider it safe to hold a checklist after startup, because I'd have to take my hand off the cyclic stick (which is a formula for a tail boom chop). He agreed.
bstratt
Cleared for Takeoff
Don't know if you have the same thing in a helicopter but I put my checklist in the clip for approach plates when I'm starting up.
Not in the helicopters I fly... (VFR only like most helicopters). Most of us don't even use kneeboards because they get in the way of the stick.
Auburn_CFI
Pre-takeoff checklist
Unless you forget something. Which wouldn't happen if you used a written checklist of some sort.
poadeleted20
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I have lost count of the times I've seen my trainees lose track of where they are in a written checklist due to the need to have three hands to keep one finger on their place in the checklist while using two hands to perform a task (e.g., left hand on start switch and right hand on throttle). However, I say again, I've had FAA Inspectors and DPE's tell me that for routine tasks, the effective use of a memorized checklist is quite acceptable -- and I agree.
Auburn_CFI
Pre-takeoff checklist
Which is why I agree that a memorized checklist (flow) could be used and then backed up with a written checklist. It's not a do list. It is a CHECK list. The memorized flow would be the do list.
Where I come from "checklist discipline" is a HUGE deal, especially crew aircraft types (who use challenge and response). Alot of guys hook rides in pilot training for this reason. Often times it's because they forgot to pin their seat (not really sure why some dudes forget this, but it happens) or for some different reason or another.
Like many of you we have ways of memorizing everything, but I still have an abbreviated version on my kneeboard and the full-up checklist in my g-suit pocket if needed. For EP's we have "boldface" items (basically muscle memory checklist items) that takes care of most of the issues that came arise in a particular aircraft.
We're essentially trained to be able to react to most malfunctions without having to reference a checklist. Reason being is that things happen too quickly to be like, "oh I seem to have a fire light, let me see what the checklist says." For goofy things like avionics malfunctions, computer problems, and all other malfunctions, they're all covered in the checklist we carry with us (not that you'd always have the time to reference it).
Do you guys carry any kind of EP checklists with you when you fly?
Like many of you we have ways of memorizing everything, but I still have an abbreviated version on my kneeboard and the full-up checklist in my g-suit pocket if needed. For EP's we have "boldface" items (basically muscle memory checklist items) that takes care of most of the issues that came arise in a particular aircraft.
We're essentially trained to be able to react to most malfunctions without having to reference a checklist. Reason being is that things happen too quickly to be like, "oh I seem to have a fire light, let me see what the checklist says." For goofy things like avionics malfunctions, computer problems, and all other malfunctions, they're all covered in the checklist we carry with us (not that you'd always have the time to reference it).
Do you guys carry any kind of EP checklists with you when you fly?
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ghery Pettit
Yes, part of my written checklist for each plane I fly. But, you are correct, some emergencies don't give you time to look it up, so you'd best have those procedures memorized.
skyflyer8
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skyflyr
I'm not thumping the paper-checklist bible (ask Kate) I'm just saying that we should all have a thorough checklist *available* if we need it in a format that works best for each of us.
Huh? Ask me what? I don't get it.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
How I don't use checklists enough. According to you, anyway.
Like:
Cowl Plugs - Check
?
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
I am a huge fan of checklists (due to a habit of forgetting things ). I do belive it is just what it is called. A CHECK list. You all are correct. If you do something enough, it does become routine. It never ever hurts to have something written to reference and reassure yourself that you did indeed accomplish everything you tink you accomplished. In my day to day life, I use a checklist in which some portions have up to 30 steps. Even though I can name them in order on most days, I have caught myself multiple times forgetting a step thanks to the checklist. Oh yeah, I use them also cause the regs say I have to.
). I do belive it is just what it is called. A CHECK list. You all are correct. If you do something enough, it does become routine. It never ever hurts to have something written to reference and reassure yourself that you did indeed accomplish everything you tink you accomplished. In my day to day life, I use a checklist in which some portions have up to 30 steps. Even though I can name them in order on most days, I have caught myself multiple times forgetting a step thanks to the checklist. Oh yeah, I use them also cause the regs say I have to.
K
KennyFlys
Guest
Doesn't the Air Force break down jobs so much, it takes six flight officers to complete a single checklist?I am a huge fan of checklists (due to a habit of forgetting things
BTW, E-2 Hawkeyes rule!
AWACSEng
Cleared for Takeoff
The AF is soooo trusting, they even let E's (i.e. me) run checklists. I even have the great fortune (or missfortune) of running all checklists from engine start to leaving the aircraft including EP's. Gets busy when you are running 3 or more checks at one time.
K
KennyFlys
Guest
What's your equipment? I used to do avionics on an S-3 Viking.
And... Welcome to the board!
skyflyer8
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skyflyr
How I don't use checklists enough. According to you, anyway.
Checklist or no checklist, what's important is to remember and do the tasks that need to be done.
You've got it Tony.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah, that was KENT I was giving the "kill" signal to at Gaston's?!?! Bwah ha ha! He didn't need to remove the cowl plugs first... spinning the prop did that for him!
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Yeah.
I knew it as soon as I hit the starter, as the way I put the plugs in, if I'm a dumbass it throws the "remove before flight" flag right up onto the cowl. It only took one blade for me to realize I was being dumb... I'd guess it probably takes three blades or so to actually pull the plugs out, but I've never gotten that far. Only time I've ever done that was right in front of y'all. 
maddog52
Line Up and Wait
Well Said!!! There is a reason that every military service, every airline and the FAA require pilots to use checklists. They are necessary and they work!! Sooner or later you are going to forget something that might be critical and if you aren't using a checklist, your are introuble.
Mitch
poadeleted20
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The FAA does not require Part 91 pilots to use printed checklists for every detail covered by the abbreviated procedures in the Normal Procedures section of the POH. Here's what the FAA does say about checklist use in the PTS:
The key word is "appropriate," which does not necessarily mean "written."FAA Practical Test Standards said:
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
The planes I fly are so dirt simple there really isn't much of anything complicated to go wrong. If something does go wrong, there probably isn't anything you can do about it. I can pretty well go through a "emergency" verbal checklist for an engine failure in a matter of two seconds. There just aren't many things to be looking at.
When I do fly larger more complex airplanes it's still the same story. The things that would happen so fast, I already know how to react to. They are still damn simple. When you start talking about gear emergencies, etc. I would reference the checklist in flight. But even gear, really, is pretty simple in most GA planes.
I'm not saying checklists are bad. I'm saying if I don't have a reason to use them I don't. The airplanes you fly in the military are by far more complicated then what I fly. The same for you Part 135 guys.
If there was a emergency and I had plenty of time I would go through a checklist. The problem with flying a plane that is so simple, if there is a failure, you probably don't have much time to be going through a checklist. You're coming down. If the failure doesn't make the engine quit, or start the plane on fire, you probably can't do anything about it. There generally isn't redundancy on the things that aren't critical.
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Um, let's go back to that full statement again.
==============================
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of an appropriate checklist. Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be either unsafe or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been accomplished, would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.[emphasis added]
==============================
I've been trying to think of a situation in which the use of a memorized "immediate action item bold item" checklist, a mnemonic checklist or a or flow pattern to make sure necessary tasks are covered would be unsafe or impractical. I can't.
Are you sure "appropriate" doesn't simply mean, "don't use the run-up checklist when you prepare for landing" or (my guess) "it doesn't have to be the one that the manufacturer supplied."
I agree with you about how the PTS is in fact applied - that a written checklist is not required for every task, but I don't think you get as much support for view that the appropriate checklist is not a written one from part you highlighted.
poadeleted20
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Neither can I, and I'm quite sure that in the quotation above, the FAA means "The situation may be such that the use of [a written] checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be either unsafe or impractical."
I think it means "a checklist for the task to be performed which provides the necessary direction of steps to be performed, in the proper order, and in a format that permits the checklist to be used while performing that task." Thus, it could be a mental checklist like "GUMP", memorized "boldface" steps for immediate action emergencies, a placard takeoff or landing checklist, or a flow check for prestart setup of the cockpit.