Checklist Thread

Checklist?

More like not checking free and correct

Not using proper cross wind controls

Not doing a good preflight
 
How do you forget to remove the gust lock until you're in the takeoff roll?

Smh.
 
Ryanb said:
How do you forget to remove the gust lock until you're in the takeoff roll?

Smh.
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You should absolutely never need to "remember" to remove a gust lock. Or "remember" any critical item. Things that need to be remembered will, from time to time, be forgotten.

Which is why checklists and checklist discipline is so vitally important.

9695_4.jpg
 
Checklist (non)use is definitely a factor, but another one is using a makeshift gust lock. The stock Cessna ones are pretty hard to forget. You have to reach under them to turn the master on.

But a bolt? I know Cessna parts are expensive, but it just has to be cheaper than unbending the aircraft.
 
Fascinating - I did not know that.

Reinforcing my comment above:

"The Air Corps, however, properly recognized that the limiting factor here was human memory, not the aircraft’s size or complexity."
 
James331 said:
Checklist?

More like not checking free and correct

Not using proper cross wind controls

Not doing a good preflight
Click to expand...

I was thinking about how he skipped over all 3 of these items and I only have 18 hours....
 
FastEddieB said:
You should absolutely never need to "remember" to remove a gust lock. Or "remember" any critical item. Things that need to be remembered will, from time to time, be forgotten.

Which is why checklists and checklist discipline is so vitally important.

9695_4.jpg
Click to expand...

That causes issues too.

Flows, then confirm with a SMALL checklist.
 
That video of the caribou always stuck with me. It was enough that I will never use an external gust lock.
 
Yeah that one is pretty terrible. Based on the way the video looks I had initially thought it was fake. But it turns out it's real and the guy filming is the father of the pilot. It's so terrible.
 
FastEddieB said:
You should absolutely never need to "remember" to remove a gust lock. Or "remember" any critical item. Things that need to be remembered will, from time to time, be forgotten.

Which is why checklists and checklist discipline is so vitally important.

9695_4.jpg
Click to expand...
Yeah totally!
But how it goes unnoticed until you're on the takeoff roll is beyond me.
 
FastEddieB said:
Which is why checklists and checklist discipline is so vitally important.
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I want to emphasize checklist discipline in your statement...I've seen a lot of guys (myself included in the early part of my career) run their finger down the checklist and look at the words, but not actually verify the items.

Some of it's because so many checklists are just bad. Some of it's because, since checklists are bad, pilots are taught that "you have to use this thing on a checkride, but it's a waste of time." Some of it's because "I don't need no stinkin' checklist."

In my mind, there are three factors involved in proper checklist discipline...having a flow that takes care of most everything so the checklists don't become massive, burdensome do lists; trigger points that remind you to pick up the checklists and complete them; and enough focus to actually read and verify.
 
SbestCFII said:
There was a somewhat recent fatal Gulfstream accident where the pilot's did the same thing, ran right off the end of the runway.
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That was their test pilots, even. Complacency knows no bounds on who it kills.
 
Pilawt said:
This is what happens when you leave the gust locks in. Fortunately everyone survived this one ...

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YIKES! Glad everyone made it out alive.

Disclaimer: lowly SEL pilot here.

Question: could asymmetric thrust from the engines be used to offset the need for the rudder in this case? If I knew I had controls limitation, I'd try to use any means necessary to regain control. Pulling back some on #3 might have been one of possible solutions I would hope would work. Am I off, ME guys?
 
The funny thing about the Mooney is I do everything backwards from what I did in my non-complex aircraft. In the other aircraft I used a checklist during preflight and never during flight. In the Mooney I don't use a checklist during preflight but I do use it during flight. The problem is Mooney checklists suck, even the custom ones I got from the previous owner.

I am actually thinking about developing my own. What I want to do is draw one up that matches my flow around the airplane. Type it up, but instead of laminating it I'd like to make it into a pad. Its really inexpensive to do at any office supply place. Every time I fly I literally check off the to do items, better yet I have whoever's flying with me check them off at my direction. I have to confirm everything's been checked before we can fly. A hundred sheets will last me for some time.
 
steingar said:
I am actually thinking about developing my own.
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You should use a checklist in all phases of flight from arriving at the hangar/tiedown to returning to the hangar/tiedown. Making your own checklists is completely appropriate as long as you do whats required to keep you, the plane/engine and passengers safe and happy.
 
citizen5000 said:
You should use a checklist in all phases of flight from arriving at the hangar/tiedown to returning to the hangar/tiedown. Making your own checklists is completely appropriate as long as you do whats required to keep you, the plane/engine and passengers safe and happy.
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+1
 
steingar said:
The funny thing about the Mooney is I do everything backwards from what I did in my non-complex aircraft. In the other aircraft I used a checklist during preflight and never during flight. In the Mooney I don't use a checklist during preflight but I do use it during flight. The problem is Mooney checklists suck, even the custom ones I got from the previous owner.

I am actually thinking about developing my own. What I want to do is draw one up that matches my flow around the airplane. Type it up, but instead of laminating it I'd like to make it into a pad. Its really inexpensive to do at any office supply place. Every time I fly I literally check off the to do items, better yet I have whoever's flying with me check them off at my direction. I have to confirm everything's been checked before we can fly. A hundred sheets will last me for some time.
Click to expand...
Do it. I've been making my own checklists since I was a student pilot. Almost 30 years later and I'm still tweaking then to make them more useful for me, especially with the multiple types I fly. Pads to literally check off things with a pencil seems to be a bit of overkill to me, but if that's what makes sense to you to foster the right discipline for you, go for it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Do it. I've been making my own checklists since I was a student pilot. Almost 30 years later and I'm still tweaking then to make them more useful for me, especially with the multiple types I fly. Pads to literally check off things with a pencil seems to be a bit of overkill to me, but if that's what makes sense to you to foster the right discipline for you, go for it.
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That.

I'd read this first though, NASA study on checklist usage and design

https://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Cockpit Checklists.pdf
 
I know a guy with an RV
<---

He was taxiing to the fuel pit to top up for a trip the next morning and he forgot the external rudder lock. Taxiing is mainly done with differential breaking but it really felt weird. I considered scrubbing the morning flight but found the problem.

I no longer use external locks. And I no longer skip the checklist when I'm "just going to the fuel pit"
 
If you want to check stuff off...a dry erase marker on a laminated checklist should do the trick, no?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Do it. I've been making my own checklists since I was a student pilot. Almost 30 years later and I'm still tweaking then to make them more useful for me, especially with the multiple types I fly. Pads to literally check off things with a pencil seems to be a bit of overkill to me, but if that's what makes sense to you to foster the right discipline for you, go for it.
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Would be interested in seeing one of your checklists if you don't mind posting it. Also, I know you hate acronyms...do teach GUMPS or something else?
 
dmspilot said:
If you want to check stuff off...a dry erase marker on a laminated checklist should do the trick, no?
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That really seems a bit overkill to me. If you're running through the checklist item by item, you should be able to keep track. If you get distracted and can't quickly re-run it, your checklists are probably too long anyhow.
 
mkosmo said:
That really seems a bit overkill to me. If you're running through the checklist item by item, you should be able to keep track. If you get distracted and can't quickly re-run it, your checklists are probably too long anyhow.
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I wasn't suggesting that it be done. I was suggesting a simple way to do it.
 
I ended up writing a lot of my own checklist, and I've been recently experimenting with the Foreflight checklist feature. I find that so many of the club generic checklists are illogical and poorly laid out.. but what is even crazier is the amount of people who don't use them and do absolutely no pre-flight. Don't even check the tanks. It is Bonkers

Someone above mentioned using asymmetrical thrust, there was an Airbus a300 that successfully made it down after they lost all hydraulics using nothing but asymmetrical thrust, very impressive
 
The first thing I do when I get into an owner's new airplane is develop a custom checklist. The generic ones are absolute garbage.

For example, in an Archer I am flying, there is no check for "towbar - removed." And yet the Archer is an aircraft that is perhaps more susceptible to towbar strikes than any other I have flown because its towbar hook is positioned on the nose strut inside the prop arc.

Then there's the school down the road from me that doesn't provide checklists in the airplanes. You have to buy them from the front desk. And no, their CFIs don't get a free copy either. Very safe.
 
I'm of two minds - I usually preflight first, the look at the checklist after, see if I missed anything. Then I use it in "series", as a "do" list, to start and runup. After runup, I never look at it again.

Then again, I mostly fly a 172 now, and the cruise, descent, and landing items are border-line silly/useless; I pretty much know I have to reduce power, etc.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Then there's the school down the road from me that doesn't provide checklists in the airplanes. You have to buy them from the front desk. And no, their CFIs don't get a free copy either. Very safe.
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Not sure what you're saying here. The AFM is required to be aboard the aircraft, and has a checklist. Anybody with a camera phone can copy it and turn it into a PDF these days with a single click of the shutter, and print however many copies of it that they like.

Technically same thing goes for their special checklist I assume you must be talking about... guarantee someone has shot photos of it. They're "out there" somewhere. Ask around.

And for the record, I have no idea who or where you're talking about, but most all of the puppy mill's publications are on the Internet. Just takes a little creative Googling...
 
dmspilot said:
Would be interested in seeing one of your checklists if you don't mind posting it. Also, I know you hate acronyms...do teach GUMPS or something else?
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I generally don't share them. The main reason is degree of personalization. I have a good friend I used to fly with all the time. He always used the FBO supplied checklist. One evening, it wasn't in the plane. He tried to use mine. He couldn't. Lines like "Switches PRN" made no sense to him. OTOH, because I fly multiple types, there are things I do go into some detail about others wouldn't because of the differences in something as simple as startup. So I don't think mine are really good examples of design for others.

On GUMP, take my comments with a grain of salt. For career reasons, teaching has always been part time and most of what I do these days is recurrent training. There is a (very) short list of acronyms I think can be useful. GUMP is one of them. I don't teach it at the primary level. "Gear down and welded" is silly and all the modifications to add carb heat, fuel pumps, seat belts, etc reduce its usefulness. Instead I try to instill an appreciation for the development of flows and standard operating procedures, and the use of the landing checklist as a pre-pattern briefing. I do discuss GUMP during complex transitions as one of a number of available methods of ensuring the gear is down. And yes, there are always exceptions.
 
Sundancer said:
I'm of two minds - I usually preflight first, the look at the checklist after, see if I missed anything. Then I use it in "series", as a "do" list, to start and runup. After runup, I never look at it again.

Then again, I mostly fly a 172 now, and the cruise, descent, and landing items are border-line silly/useless; I pretty much know I have to reduce power, etc.
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Yep, lose the reduce power item. That's what the exercise of writing your own is all about. But it's the post run-up lack of use where the real problem starts. You end up developing a habit pattern of not using it. We are creatures of habit. Once we create them, intentionally or not, they are hard to break.

I've told the story before of the pilot transitioning from a 172 to a 182, probably the world's easiest transition. Kept forgetting the cowl flaps and when told "you're missing something," darted around the cockpit unsuccessfully trying to figure it out, never once even thinking of taking a look at the checklist he had left sitting in his line of sight on the glareshield. I've seen it happen in other situations. Consider the stress of a real emergency coupled with a habit of not using a checklist.

I'd say, even in that fuel injected 172 where the only item on your cruise, descent and landing checklists might be a reminder to set or check the mixture, it's still worthwhile to develop the habit of running it.
 
Be VERY careful when personalizing checklists.

It's something I've always done, and it did not bite me for a long, long time.

Then, I somehow neglected to include one item on my Sky Arrow's personlized checklist - "Canopy - CLOSED AND LATCHED".

It led to a scary scenario where things could have ended a lot worse. Here's a link to the long version:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ecklist-use-a-habit.68235/page-2#post-1384445
 
"Probable cause: The pilot’s failure to remove the gust lock during the preflight inspection, resulting in a loss of control and collision with trees during takeoff."

Probable Cause? I'm gonna go with, "Yep, that definitely was the cause"
 
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