Cheap ppl

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MikeLima

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MikeLima
When I started training I complained on this forum about both the instructor I was using and the plane I was flying. As I gained more experience I realized that both of my complaints, for the most part, were baseless and based mainly on my lack of knowledge and my type A personality. (Type A meaning A-hole) Nonetheless, in the beginning, when I was second guessing everything I even considered abandoning my local plan and enrolling in one of those accelerated courses which charge a premium but shorten the time. As I was sitting here this morning thinking about how foolish that would have been, I got to thinking just how cheap my ppl ended up being.

I calculated that my total costs, without test fees, has been $3,490. That's for 22 hours dual and 20 solo. Instructor was $25 an hour and plane rental was $70 and hour wet. Total time was slightly over 4 months including a one week weather delay on my practical and a two week period where work prevented my flying at all.

So if you are perusing this forum thinking you would like to fly but you have seen those high dollar ads, you should know that it is possible to get it done fairly cheaply and quickly.
 
$70 airplane and $25 instructor are not the norm in my location. Best way to save money, save money then start training and don't drag it out.
 
The post says today but the dollar figures say 15 years ago. :)

You did very well I paid right around that much give or take a few hundred 20 years ago. When I got mine my numbers included all tests, checkrides and supplies. At the time rental was about $45 an hour and instructor was $15. It took me about 60 hours I was ready to take the test around 50 but did a lot of flying the last couple weeks when I was waiting for my test date to make sure I was ready.

It would be tough to find an instructor around here for $25 an hour the cheapest one I know is $38. There is a flight center that runs a special and rents a 150 for $69.95 wet from time to time usually for a month or two their normal price is $90. I think their instructors are closer to $50. They are also out of a class C airport so I suspect there is no way you could get your PPL in 42 hours like you did.

Where I rent now 172 is $110 and instructor is $38 so using your numbers it would be $5632 dollars.
 
How the hell did you pull that off? I'm paying $112/hr wet for a 1977 PA-28 and $42/ hour instructor.
 
You were very lucky with that deal. Was the cfi the plane owner as well? Maybe just a guy who likes teach and fly free?

Sounds like you did a good job studying and getting it done quickly as well, I'm dragging mine way out, I'm hoping to finish before my 2yr medical expires.(joking, sort of)
 
Yes, I am lucky to have been able to accomplish this so cheaply. I feel foolish having considered spending three times as much for an accelerated course.

The instructor is a semi-retired pilot who used to run a flight school. He stays moderately busy both with instructing and acting as a pilot for a couple of construction companies here who have planes and need a pilot on occasion and I assume he doesn't need a lot of additional income. However, he has always been very easy to schedule with because he will fly just about any time on any day that he is not out of town. He could charge more and still stay just as busy as he is just about the only instructor within 80-100 miles of my location (by road, anyway). He has a very laid back teaching style but it must be very effective because I've never heard of one of his students busting the check ride (although I'm sure there must have been a few) and when I went for the check ride the examiner said he had never met my instructor but that his students always do well.

At first I took his laid back style as being unconcerned with whether I took 40 hours or 100 hours to get my license but now I realize it's just his style and that he fixes what needs fixing but doesn't waste time drilling you on what doesn't. He does expect that you will get the academic stuff from private study and not through him, however.

The plane is owned by the owner of the mechanic shop on the field and his theory is the cheaper the plane is to rent, the more people will be willing to get a license, which will increase more planes on the field, which will increase his bottom line.
 
Just be careful with that airplane if you continue to fly it. That per hour number is well below what it will take to properly maintain it, long term. And the mechanic is starry-eyed, there's only so much of a market for new pilots and teaching them that airplanes priced below what is needed to keep them operational will only result in him being broke and the airplane being a "typical rental" with crap broken on it all the time. You can't increase "bottom line" operating below cost in any business. Just sayin'. He's doing it by valuing his labor and time at zero.
 
denverpilot:

I always do my best to "be careful" ;-)

I certainly understand what you are saying and I'm not saying his theory is accurate. Just that it's his theory. So far he has kept the plane up well and things that needed fixing were fixed pretty quickly. Maybe he's got more free time now than he needs... I don't know.

Just curious, and maybe this needs a whole new thread, but what do you think the amount would need to be to break even on renting a Cessna 150? Out of the $70 bucks an hour, I'm figuring $25 covers the gas and the rest would be for the other "costs" and, based on your comments, I assume that won't do it.
 
The two best things anyone can do (to cut expenses) are:
(1) Do your homework - study your @ss off
(2) as previously noted, save up your money in advance and fly as often as you can

3-4 days a week is optimal, for those that can pull it off
 
MikeLima said:
denverpilot:

I always do my best to "be careful" ;-)

I certainly understand what you are saying and I'm not saying his theory is accurate. Just that it's his theory. So far he has kept the plane up well and things that needed fixing were fixed pretty quickly. Maybe he's got more free time now than he needs... I don't know.

Just curious, and maybe this needs a whole new thread, but what do you think the amount would need to be to break even on renting a Cessna 150? Out of the $70 bucks an hour, I'm figuring $25 covers the gas and the rest would be for the other "costs" and, based on your comments, I assume that won't do it.
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Wellll... Somewhere I missed that it's a 150, and due to density altitude concerns (and fat pilots!) we don't see too many of them used as trainers here.

$70 might be fine if he's not paying a mechanic, since he's doing the work himself.

I'd just watch it when the squawk list starts to get long and stuff isn't getting fixed. I soloed in a similarly set up 150 long long ago, and it eventually had to be sold because it wasn't earning it's keep.

Just before that, various things started getting "deferred maintenance" that really shouldn't have been deferred and my instructor recommended we switch airports and FBOs.

I've also seen the opposite where in a large flight club, the airplanes owned and leased back by the mechanics were the most sound rentals, and the private owner leasebacks were nickel and dimed.
 
I'd be willing to let the CFI punch me in the face before each lesson for $85/hr dual.

OK, not really, but that's only because I've have my ticket for more than 22 years now. But I suspect there are plenty of other student pilots who would...
 
I missed it, but what kind of plane was this?

Sounds like both the instructor and the mechanic run this as a loss-leader to increase the local pilot population.
 
weilke said:
I missed it, but what kind of plane was this?

Sounds like both the instructor and the mechanic run this as a loss-leader to increase the local pilot population.
Click to expand...


Nope.

It is a 150, burning 6 gallons of fuel per hour. $70 easily covers the costs.

The instructor charges $25/hour, based on what he views as a market rate.

Everybody is happy.
 
MikeLima said:
denverpilot:

I certainly understand what you are saying and I'm not saying his theory is accurate. Just that it's his theory. So far he has kept the plane up well and things that needed fixing were fixed pretty quickly. Maybe he's got more free time now than he needs... I don't know.

Just curious, and maybe this needs a whole new thread, but what do you think the amount would need to be to break even on renting a Cessna 150? Out of the $70 bucks an hour, I'm figuring $25 covers the gas and the rest would be for the other "costs" and, based on your comments, I assume that won't do it.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that insurance on that would be $3-4K/ yearly. Annual / 100 hours are cheaper if it's an owner-maintained aircraft. If he doesn't insure the plane, he might be able to fly it for $75/hr.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'm pretty sure that insurance on that would be $3-4K/ yearly. Annual / 100 hours are cheaper if it's an owner-maintained aircraft. If he doesn't insure the plane, he might be able to fly it for $75/hr.
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Agreed. I already said that if it's a 150, it may be barely possible to operate it commercially at that price.

But it'll likely be short-lived once it flies regularly and heavily and people, especially students, break things, slide tires, etc.

It's just a very tight margin. Most rent for around $90/Hr wet.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'm pretty sure that insurance on that would be $3-4K/ yearly. Annual / 100 hours are cheaper if it's an owner-maintained aircraft. If he doesn't insure the plane, he might be able to fly it for $75/hr.
Click to expand...

Apparently you are wrong and anyone who charges $95/hr for a 150 is a greedy bastard o_O
 
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weilke said:
Apparently you are wrong and anyone who charges $95/hr for a 150 is a greedy bastard o_O
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In Dallas I am reasonably sure I need closer to $110-120/hr to just break even on my 120 if that tells you anything.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
In Dallas I am reasonable sure I need closer to $110/hr to break even on my 120 if that tells you anything.
Click to expand...

So you mean it"s not $25 for the fuel and the rest is profit?
 
RyanShort1 said:
Not if you figure in parts, wear, 100-hr inspections, engine replacement, hangar costs, and the like.
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I don't think I've ever seen a 150 in a hangar. Seriously. Just something that came to mind when I read that. Ha.

I've seen them under sun shades in PHX and similar elsewhere, but never seen anyone bother hangaring a 150 in a full hangar.

I'm sure someone does, I've just never seen it. :)

The ones I flew long ago, definitely lived outside.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Not if you figure in parts, wear, 100-hr inspections, engine replacement, hangar costs, and the like.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the other guy further up.

It works at $75 if you are an A&P, don't charge yourself for your own time and parking. It also helps to skimp on insurance.
 
MikeLima said:
When I started training I complained on this forum about both the instructor I was using and the plane I was flying. As I gained more experience I realized that both of my complaints, for the most part, were baseless and based mainly on my lack of knowledge and my type A personality. (Type A meaning A-hole) Nonetheless, in the beginning, when I was second guessing everything I even considered abandoning my local plan and enrolling in one of those accelerated courses which charge a premium but shorten the time. As I was sitting here this morning thinking about how foolish that would have been, I got to thinking just how cheap my ppl ended up being.

I calculated that my total costs, without test fees, has been $3,490. That's for 22 hours dual and 20 solo. Instructor was $25 an hour and plane rental was $70 and hour wet. Total time was slightly over 4 months including a one week weather delay on my practical and a two week period where work prevented my flying at all.

So if you are perusing this forum thinking you would like to fly but you have seen those high dollar ads, you should know that it is possible to get it done fairly cheaply and quickly.
Click to expand...

Location please
 
denverpilot said:
I don't think I've ever seen a 150 in a hangar. Seriously. Just something that came to mind when I read that. Ha.

I've seen them under sun shades in PHX and similar elsewhere, but never seen anyone bother hangaring a 150 in a full hangar.

I'm sure someone does, I've just never seen it. :)

The ones I flew long ago, definitely lived outside.
Click to expand...

I know of at least 3 at SFQ, and its a small airport.
 
Brad Z said:
I'd be willing to let the CFI punch me in the face before each lesson for $85/hr dual.

OK, not really, but that's only because I've have my ticket for more than 22 years now. But I suspect there are plenty of other student pilots who would...
Click to expand...


No I'd get punched in the face for that
 
denverpilot said:
I don't think I've ever seen a 150 in a hangar. Seriously. Just something that came to mind when I read that. Ha.

I've seen them under sun shades in PHX and similar elsewhere, but never seen anyone bother hangaring a 150 in a full hangar.

I'm sure someone does, I've just never seen it. :)

The ones I flew long ago, definitely lived outside.
Click to expand...

In the Dakotas you see them in the hangar. Else they wouldn't unthaw all winter!!


Those prices don't even touch my costs as a flight school owner. Insurance alone has got to be a couple grand a year even for a $20k airplane.
 
I left AZ to do this like the OP and it's worked well so far for me. Everyone at fbo, instructor, and aircraft owner have been amazing and accommodating. Two thumbs up for great instruction, saved money, and good people!
 
Price sounds too good to be true , good for you.
I had great instruction ,I thought, and in got my certificate couple months ago, it cost more than that.
Training took a little bit, it was almost a year for me.
 
I agree, it sounded way too good to be true...in fact when I was reading it, I thought the post was dated 10 years ago haha. When I contacted the OP, and told him I had just started my ppl (had 4 hrs and started a week prior, but had an asshat for an instructor locally) he gave me the contact info for his instructor and fbo. I called them and verified, 2 days later drove 24 hrs to Missouri, and currently I have 46 hours, and I was just signed off to take my checkride...I did it all in 12 days (way faster than I expected!)...instructor is very good, and aircraft owner is very accommodating, very cool guy. There are 4-5 people flying his 150, and he is an A&P AI. At the cost of $3300 for my ppl, I'm more than pleased...considering I'm dropping a lot of cash on my path to commercial rating.
 
It's a 150 and owned by the mechanic that owns the maintenance shop. $70/hr sounds about right. He probably doesn't make much money off of it but he probably keeps it in his maintenance hangar(or gets a good price on a hangar since he is a local business on the field), probably gets a discount on fuel, purchases parts through his maintenance account with zero mark-up, does all the maintenance himself. At $3,500 for the whole private, I'd say you got a bargain.
 
You had to travel there and back and lodging and food for the stay. That adds up. I dont how you can do it in 46 hours, but if you did, CONGRATS!
 
coloradobluesky said:
You had to travel there and back and lodging and food for the stay. That adds up. I dont how you can do it in 46 hours, but if you did, CONGRATS!
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I don't understand how people take more than 46 hours ....
 
I just did mine in 45 hours, and 4 of those hours were phase checks, with school instructors. 1 hr pre-solo phase check, and 1.5 each for XC and final phase checks. So, 41 hours if I exclude the phase checks. Doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else, just pointing out that it is often done. My school has great instructors who use a great syllabus. I studied a lot. Still do. ;)
 
It would be interesting to know the content of the extra hours that are pushing people up toward 60-70 hours.

Is it 20 hours of touch and go's?

Or is it just air work?
 
I'm at 36 now and will have a 3 hour XC this friday with my instructor. Then I'll have to get my 5 hours solo XC (assuming I get my endorsement this week) so I'll likely be in the mid to upper 40's when I get done. I did have several days where I did nothing but touch and goes for a couple hours so there's some "fluff" time in there over the 40.
 
Deals like that still exist.

I'm in a club now that has a Cherokee 140. It's $60 an hour wet + $70 a month in dues. Initiation is $500 bucks.

If you hustle and get it done in 3-4 months in around 50 hours, it all comes out to like $75 an hour for the plane, and that's tach hour. Find a $30 an hour instructor (very common) and it's ballpark to the OPs experience.

I'm using the plane to build time in toward my commercial. Beats splitting a $140 rental 172 with another time builder and sweating under the hood half the time.

The key to how the club stays above water is that we keep the plane flying non-stop. That means no taking it overnight. It's strictly used for training, day trips, and time building. About $30 of that $60 an hour is going to maintenance and the engine fund with fuel being as cheap as it is right now. There's 10 people paying dues every month as well. It all adds up.
 
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I had to pay around $119/hr hobbs and $25 for the instructor for my Private. Now that I joined a club (didn't allow private pilot training), I can do my instrument at $70/hr wet/tach and $25/hr for the instructor. I figured it to be around $3500 - $4000.
 
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