Charter plane down in Colombia, Brazilian soccer team on board

So sad to think that with limited experience, she might not have felt comfortable telling the captain to declare an emergency due to low fuel, or whatever.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
So sad to think that with limited experience, she might not have felt comfortable telling the captain to declare an emergency due to low fuel, or whatever.
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TELL the captain to declare an emergency? It was his responsibility to declare and to TELL her that he was going to land. Pilots Emergency Authority. Getting traffic out of the way was on her.

Bob Gardner
 
The "her" referred to in my last post is the inexperienced controller, not the lady four-striper.

Bob
 
The old saying "Out of the mouth of babes" comes to mind. Sometimes the younger person needs to speak up and the senior person needs to listen. That might not be in any reg or any book but it is the freakin' truth.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The old saying "Out of the mouth of babes" comes to mind. Sometimes the younger person needs to speak up and the senior person needs to listen. That might not be in any reg or any book but it is the freakin' truth.
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It's there SkyDog. We call it CRM. FOs are expected to speak up. And they do, at least when I was there, and I see no reason for it to still be that way.
 
Point of order: The notion FO Yummypants had any higher SA than the CA in this instance assumes fact not in evidence. So let's keep the necrophilic white knighting in check. Carry on. ;)
 
3393RP said:
I always liked the way they looked, with the four turbofans and wing anhedral it appeared to be a squat little performer that would be fun to fly. But I never had the chance to ride in one.
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I also like the way they looked. Purposeful...like a mini-C5:

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mscard88 said:
It's there SkyDog. We call it CRM. FOs are expected to speak up. And they do, at least when I was there, and I see no reason for it to still be that way.
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Interesting that the commentary about this on the thread is from the experience and value system in this part of the world. We are extraordinarily fortunate to live in a place where questioning authority is not considered a crime or even a social faux pas. In some contexts it is even encouraged and expected in our society.

In much of the rest of the world it is quite the opposite. Unquestioning respect for authority is a fundamental societal building block, and it is indoctrinated into the children, demanded of all citizens and sometimes enforced with the threat of your own government shooting you (think Tienanmen Square or the late, lamented Fidel) . Imagine how difficult it must be to effectively teach someone raised in China or the Arab world about CRM. How well do you think that stuff actually transfers from the training forum into the operational cockpit in those environments? I lived for 8 years in the Persian Gulf, and although the airlines there have considerable numbers of western expat pilots, and I have no doubt there are some outstandingly competent nationals that also fly those planes, I still avoided Emirates, Etihad and the rest of them as much as possible because of this cultural issue. If you think I was "overreacting", read the accident report for Gulf Air 072. My choices were BA, Lufthansa, Cathay whenever I voted myself off the island. ;)
 
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mscard88 said:
I always believed once you had a plan for a diversion, especially for a potential low fuel situation, you stick with it.
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This can't be overstated or underestimated in its importance. I completely agree. If you make a plan and it turns out to have been the second best plan, but it kept you alive and everyone else alive, it was the best plan.

It's better to second guess yourself safely on the ground than in the air.

I have made diversions that, now that I think back on them, could have been performed better. However, I'm still here and at the end of the day and that's is what is important.
3393RP said:
I always liked the way they looked, with the four turbofans and wing anhedral it appeared to be a squat little performer that would be fun to fly. But I never had the chance to ride in one.
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I've always loved the look of the BAe-146. I once heard that BAe stood for: bring another engine. lol

I guess they had reliability issues...
 
Just make sure you keep your speed up while the tail cone spoilers (I don't know the proper name) are deployed...

 
If what Daily Mail reported is true, the FO was a former well-known model making her first appearance as a airline pilot on a revenue flight. The Captain was the CEO/chief pilot for the newly established operation. Certainly the publicity-stunt crew selection was intentional, and the preflight planning likely took a back seat to fraternizing with the passengers and giving interviews to journalists.

This flight seemed doomed from the start.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Point of order: The notion FO Yummypants had any higher SA than the CA in this instance assumes fact not in evidence. So let's keep the necrophilic white knighting in check. Carry on. ;)
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Not fact, but some speculation as to what might've happened, in an effort to figure out what might have gone wrong, or what could have changed the terrible outcome. You may have confused POA with the NTSB. ;)
 
bobmrg said:
TELL the captain to declare an emergency? It was his responsibility to declare and to TELL her that he was going to land. Pilots Emergency Authority. Getting traffic out of the way was on her.

Bob Gardner
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Not following you. In post #54 w/ communications between ATC and the plane, Capt did declare an emergency and the controller moved planes out of the way,immediately. They apparently were inbound on the ILS and then wanted vectors (guessing they got off the LOC?), controller lost radar contact for awhile, then reestablished contact and gave them a 350 heading. I think the distance remaining to the runway would have prevented them gliding in anyway. Terrible but cutting fuel this close, anywhere not to mention mountainous terrain, is negligence.
 
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bobmrg said:
The "her" referred to in my last post is the inexperienced controller, not the lady four-striper.
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I'm not sure where you got the idea the controller was inexperienced. She didn't sound that way in the recording. The captain checked on with "a fuel problem". He didn't use the E-word until about 2 minutes later. After he used the word she turned the preceding aircraft off the approach.
 
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