Charter ops.

Aztec Driver

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
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982
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Elizabethtown, PA
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Bryon
Maybe I am not cut out for this kind of flying.

I like to keep an eye on weather as long before any flight I have.

I was supposed to pick someone up last evening at ITH and take them over to LEB. Forecast at ITH 5 from 5 hours before showed that I should at least be able to get it to pick them up. Observations and forecast at LEB was too low to get in. Forecast called for LEB to stay that way until the next morning. While waiting to see what would actually transpire, I was surprised to find ITH went below minimums and stay that wau for a few hours.

I started talking to the customer to give him options. After several options are discussed, about an hour before the scheduled charter, with both ITH and LEB below minimums, the customer decides to rent a car and drive. Within the hour, ITH comes up high enough to get in. Less than two hours later, LEB, completely against its forecast, comes up well above minimums and stays there for several hours.

So, if I would have just shut my mouth and not taken the issue to the customer, I could have flown up to ITH almost as scheduled, and then flown him to LEB, again, almost as scheduled.

Instead, I get to hear the slight irritation in my bosses voice and the second guessing of my own inadequacies stare me in the face.

Darn, I hate it when my decisions turn out wrong.
 
I wouldn't let it bother you. We often have the same situation trying to get into and out of the mountain airports. We'll make them drive from Aspen to Rifle, for example then, oops I guess we could have gotten into Aspen. Sometimes the weather is as forecast and sometimes it's not.
 
Don't worry, if you pass a couple more trips due to iffy weather the 135 operator will make your career decision for you.
 
If you let this kind of thing get to you, you will have an ulcer the size of a casaba melon. Don't second-guess weather decisions, because if you do, sooner or later you will rationalize yourself into a weather-related accident.

Bob Gardner
 
Don't forget that weather forecasters get paid for being wrong ;)
 
What kind of flying you're cut out for and what kind of business you're cut out for are two different things. ;)

You're alive, customer's alive, boss is cranky. There's worse outcomes.
 
I feel your pain, but it is always best to give the customers options as early as you can so they can plan accordingly. I look at it this way, making the customer drive when you might have been able to fly is much better than putting them in the airplane when they should have driven.
 
Aztec Driver said:
Darn, I hate it when my decisions turn out wrong.
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Better to say that sitting in front of a computer than to say it in the air.:wink2:

That being said, I feel for you... it must be crazy trying to mesh responsible planning with customer expectations, not to mention the ol' bottom line.
 
bobmrg said:
If you let this kind of thing get to you, you will have an ulcer the size of a casaba melon. Don't second-guess weather decisions, because if you do, sooner or later you will rationalize yourself into a weather-related accident.

Bob Gardner
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This.
 
wabower said:
Don't worry, if you pass a couple more trips due to iffy weather the 135 operator will make your career decision for you.
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:yeahthat:
 
Bryon, do you actually make enough out of that charter to justify the time taken off your day job?
 
Stop looking at weather way out. The only weather that matter is what's forecast at launch and even then it's only visibility.

Sure, it's nice to give the pax a heads up to figure out alternate plans. But that's a time allotted thing. Many times I brief the pax on the ramp that the Wx is crap and let me know where they want to go if we can't get it.

Usually we get in. But having a plan B ready to go helps. I've given my iPad over and said "where ya wanna go?".

Don't stress. I've said several times, "if I could control weather I'd be sitting back there and not up here!"
 
Aztec Driver said:
I started talking to the customer to give him options. After several options are discussed, about an hour before the scheduled charter, with both ITH and LEB below minimums, the customer decides to rent a car and drive. Within the hour, ITH comes up high enough to get in. Less than two hours later, LEB, completely against its forecast, comes up well above minimums and stays there for several hours.
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I wouldn't have checked weather until about an hour before departure. That way I'd get a good night's sleep and not be disappointed in the bum forecast. In this instance, I'd have done what you did, just a little later probably. One option is to just delay, for example, for the sun to burn off the morning fog, the front to move through, the wind to pick up, etc. If you come across as 'concerned' your passenger might take that to mean 'concerned for safety's sake' and elect to drive based on that, so you have to be careful how you pitch the options.

I once got called on the carpet for not departing when the RVR was below minimums. We were part 91, so they didn't apply, but I elected not to go anyway (I've seen deer standing on the centerline before). "You're too conservative!" I was told. Well, guess what? The next day the CEO woke me up early in the morning to apologize. Why did he? Because I was scheduled to run his daughter and her family down to Miami later on that day while a hurricane was bearing down on the place. He didn't want me taking ANY chances!

dtuuri
 
Byron, in my experience it is very unwise for the pilot to be having these types of conversations with the customer. Unless you own the company, he is not your customer he is the company's customer and it is the company who should be having this discussion with the customer. When I was 135 chief pilot the chain of command was from pilot to me to whomever it was who was responsible for keeping the customer happy. As a pilot this saves you tons of angst. Here is how I think it should work: Check the Wx, looks bad. Call C.P. "Hi Boss, forecast for trip to LEB looks terrible. Thought you'd like to know in case you want to give the customer a heads up." Look at spouse "I might be home to help get the kids off to school in the AM, but we need to wait and see."

I know you didn't bring this up but other folks did. As far as second guessing your own weather decisions, I'm not sure where there is much wiggle room if you are 135. You are now a professional pilot, your job is to fly if it is legal to fly and to not fly if it is illegal to fly. That was my expectation as a CP and the bosses expectation when I was a 121 and 135 Captain. In general there is not a whole lot of wiggle room. There are some exceptions -- line of TRW between origin and destination and no way through or around, extremely strong winds could be another, ice forecast en-route could be another -- but mostly if it is legal you go because that is what you are there to do.

If you are flying part 91 for hire then normally your boss is your customer so it is a bit more complicated. It is just that now you take on the role of adviser. "Boss the Wx looks pretty iffy, here are your options, I think you should take option "x" but any of the options will work."

So as I said at the start, the problem with this scenario was not that you were concerned about the Wx, it was that you were discussing it with the customer rather than the C.P.
 
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Aztec Driver said:
The great thing about that is I can get someone else to do my work on occasion so I can take off and enjoy growing my ulcer.:D
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Do you recoup what you pay that someone else while you're off growing ulcers?



Better watch that. You have someone else fill in for you, sooner or later they're going to wonder what they need you for.
 
Arnold, I appreciate your insight on this. The world of 135 flying in airplanes that don't have turbines and hot wings is interesting to me, as the weather decisions "seem" simple (if they meet your opspecs, go fly) but often aren't.
 
You have described the accountability aspect that is so troubling, and IMO the reason for the relatively poor safety record of the 135's when operation the same equipment as the 91's. 135 management knows they don't make money unless the airplanes fly. They also know that the customer will fly Southwest in the morning when the weather is better. When the pilot's accountability is to someone other than the guy in the back who's paying for the trip, the equation changes and the results may not be in his favor.

Arnold said:
Byron, in my experience it is very unwise for the pilot to be having these types of conversations with the customer. Unless you own the company, he is not your customer he is the company's customer and it is the company who should be having this discussion with the customer. When I was 135 chief pilot the chain of command was from pilot to me to whomever it was who was responsible for keeping the customer happy. As a pilot this saves you tons of angst. Here is how I think it should work: Check the Wx, looks bad. Call C.P. "Hi Boss, forecast for trip to LEB looks terrible. Thought you'd like to know in case you want to give the customer a heads up." Look at spouse "I might be home to help get the kids off to school in the AM, but we need to wait and see."

I know you didn't bring this up but other folks did. As far as second guessing your own weather decisions, I'm not sure where there is much wiggle room if you are 135. You are now a professional pilot, your job is to fly if it is legal to fly and to not fly if it is illegal to fly. That was my expectation as a CP and the bosses expectation when I was a 121 and 135 Captain. In general there is not a whole lot of wiggle room. There are some exceptions -- line of TRW between origin and destination and no way through or around, extremely strong winds could be another, ice forecast en-route could be another -- but mostly if it is legal you go because that is what you are there to do.

If you are flying part 91 for hire then normally your boss is your customer so it is a bit more complicated. It is just that now you take on the role of adviser. "Boss the Wx looks pretty iffy, here are your options, I think you should take option "x" but any of the options will work."

So as I said at the start, the problem with this scenario was not that you were concerned about the Wx, it was that you were discussing it with the customer rather than the C.P.
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I have no problem talking to the passengers myself, and while they sometimes seem disappointed they rarely give any argument. The thing is that you need to give them alternatives, as in an alternate destination or leaving at another time. This gives lets them be a part of the decision. I think Part 135 is actually easier because there is not as big a grey area.
 
I have to agree with Arnold. You are a professional pilot now and your job is to fly. Now like he said there are exceptions to that of course, but if its legal to fly then you need to go. Many times the forecast is just not that accurate. Good luck

Cheers
 
So you charter folks, would you say it also depends on if the GIB is a jerk?

I ask because there's correlations between the contracting work I had done here at the house... if you're a reasonable sort, and the contractor (in this case, the pilot) can tell you're not the type to go off the handle and complain because humans can't control the weather, I'd guess you'd give that Pax a bit more info in conversation than some guy you can tell is wound so tight his socks are caught in his butt-crack.

Just wondering. Do you censor yourself more with a sever jerk-weenie than with someone who comes across as, "Hey, the weather doesn't look so great today, and I understand this aircraft has some limitations. Just let me know if I need to figure out alternate plans. Thanks."
 
yea you tailor your message depending on the audience.

i had one guy once who was wound up so tight because we were going to be flying through rain. I wasn't sure he was going to get on the plane. I made the mistake of telling him that he could just let me know if he had any questions during the flight. as we start to hit the rain he starts asking a trillion questions. Thankfully he didn't see the lightning off the left wing. Finally he said something like "I just want to be safe" and when I said "me too" he realized that pilots want to live too because we are the first to the scene to the crash and he relaxed a lot.

Luckily we caught a killer tailwind home in clear skies and I had him from Olathe to Des Moines in less than an hour. He handed me $100 when he got off the plane. I'm not sure if it was because he thought I did a good job or if he was just happy to be alive.
 
Probably the latter after he learned you were really a glider pilot who was just moon-lighting in the 135 biz.

tonycondon said:
yea you tailor your message depending on the audience.

i had one guy once who was wound up so tight because we were going to be flying through rain. I wasn't sure he was going to get on the plane. I made the mistake of telling him that he could just let me know if he had any questions during the flight. as we start to hit the rain he starts asking a trillion questions. Thankfully he didn't see the lightning off the left wing. Finally he said something like "I just want to be safe" and when I said "me too" he realized that pilots want to live too because we are the first to the scene to the crash and he relaxed a lot.

Luckily we caught a killer tailwind home in clear skies and I had him from Olathe to Des Moines in less than an hour. He handed me $100 when he got off the plane. I'm not sure if it was because he thought I did a good job or if he was just happy to be alive.
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wabower said:
Probably the latter after he learned you were really a glider pilot who was just moon-lighting in the 135 biz.
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well considering i was 23 at the time he probably was thrilled to be home with a pulse.
 
denverpilot said:
Do you censor yourself more with a sever jerk-weenie than with someone who comes across as, "Hey, the weather doesn't look so great today, and I understand this aircraft has some limitations. Just let me know if I need to figure out alternate plans. Thanks."
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Maybe I've been lucky or I have a different definition of "jerk-weenie" but I haven't come across many of them. Some are unhappier than others when you tell them about a delay but they can see they aren't going anywhere. I've never had anyone throw a tantrum.

Of course sometimes they don't follow your advice. Last winter we had a brokered trip from Eagle to somewhere in Texas. The weather was below minimums in Eagle and also in Rifle so we told the broker to tell the customer they could either drive to Grand Junction or wait until the next morning. They didn't want to drive to Grand Junction but they decided they were going to drive to Denver. Over two passes. In a snowstorm. So we said we'd wait for them at KAPA. After a couple hours the broker called back and said they had turned back to Eagle and would go in the morning. I was wondering what they would have to say when we picked them up in Eagle the next morning. They were a little grumpy but didn't try to pin any blame.
 
I'm with Wayne on Arnold's post. While it is your job to fly, get-there-itis applies, and failure to use good logic gets people killed. Your job is not to have get-there-itis.

One should never be pressured into an unsafe decision. However, one may want to question whether it's really an unsafe decision, or simply personal issues that need to be addressed with more training or the like. I've seen a lot of people wimp out of flights for various reasons that mostly come down to insufficient training or personal insecurities.

This is where the expectations of a 135 pilot come in. Low ceilings, storms, icing, one should be comfortable with. I always talked with my customers directly and warned them when we might have issues getting into the destination, with a suggested planned alternative in case we couldn't (only once did we have to divert). I was asked if I thought it was unsafe, I said no but it will be rainy, etc., and off we went. My passengers happily sat in back and worked on their computers, I was busy working the boots, radar, etc.
 
Byron, in my experience it is very unwise for the pilot to be having these types of conversations with the customer. Unless you own the company, he is not your customer he is the company's customer and it is the company who should be having this discussion with the customer. When I was 135 chief pilot the chain of command was from pilot to me to whomever it was who was responsible for keeping the customer happy. As a pilot this saves you tons of angst. Here is how I think it should work: Check the Wx, looks bad. Call C.P. "Hi Boss, forecast for trip to LEB looks terrible. Thought you'd like to know in case you want to give the customer a heads up." Look at spouse "I might be home to help get the kids off to school in the AM, but we need to wait and see."
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First off, can we please look at the name closely before we use it in a sentence? :D

This is the lesson I took away from this as well. However, there are a few items that you may want to know before you completely throw me under the bus.

I agree with you and several others that I should not have shared the weather issues with the customer as early as I did. That process did not work out as well as it could have.

The chief pilot, who is also the owner, arrived at the office an hour after I started checking weather. He originally told me that I shouldn't be talking to the customer yet, and explained the why's and wherefore's. After a half hour of checking weather and debating, he told me I was making the right call.

What I had done up until that point was to let the customer know the weather situation and let him know we may have to divert to another destination because the current weather and the forecast for the entire night calls for ceilings and visibility lower than minimums.

Over the next couple of hours I maintained a close watch on the weather at both the destination and at his origination. I was surprised to see the weather at the starting point go below approach minimums and stay that way for several hours as well. At 16:30, the customer contacted me and realized that the origination airport was "closed" due to weather and he may just choose to drive. At 17:30, he asked if I was waiting at the origination airport yet, or if I still had to fly there. I let him know that I still had to fly there, that currently the airport was reporting below minimums, but that I expect that I should be able to arrive a little later. He chose at that time to drive, since he would have had to wait for me to arrive.

I kept a watch on it for several hours thereafter. At 18:10 the next metar showed that his origin had cleared enough to get in. unfortunately it came too late to help in his decision. Two hours later, completely against the forecast and historical weather observations, the weather at the destination lifted enough to easily get in and stayed that way for a few hours.

I know you didn't bring this up but other folks did. As far as second guessing your own weather decisions, I'm not sure where there is much wiggle room if you are 135. You are now a professional pilot, your job is to fly if it is legal to fly and to not fly if it is illegal to fly. That was my expectation as a CP and the bosses expectation when I was a 121 and 135 Captain. In general there is not a whole lot of wiggle room. There are some exceptions -- line of TRW between origin and destination and no way through or around, extremely strong winds could be another, ice forecast en-route could be another -- but mostly if it is legal you go because that is what you are there to do.
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One should never be pressured into an unsafe decision. However, one may want to question whether it's really an unsafe decision, or simply personal issues that need to be addressed with more training or the like. I've seen a lot of people wimp out of flights for various reasons that mostly come down to insufficient training or personal insecurities.
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This is one area I am still working on. I get very little "all the way down to minimums " flying, so the insecurities do take on a life of their own. But, Arnold, you are right, there shouldn't be a lot of wiggle room, for good reason.

These are the lessons learned.
 
I'm having a hard time figuring out who was unhappy with the way things turned out. Your boss agreed with your decision and you haven't indicated that the passengers were upset. The weather will sometimes be different that forecast and the difference between above minimums and below minimums isn't very much. I agree that with the others that you need to be able to shoot the approach to minimums unless there are some other mitigating factors.

As far as who should be talking to the customers, that is dependent on how each company is set up. It sounds like your boss explained to you how he wants things done but don't assume it's the same for all charter companies.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm having a hard time figuring out who was unhappy with the way things turned out. Your boss agreed with your decision and you haven't indicated that the passengers were upset. The weather will sometimes be different that forecast and the difference between above minimums and below minimums isn't very much. I agree that with the others that you need to be able to shoot the approach to minimums unless there are some other mitigating factors.

As far as who should be talking to the customers, that is dependent on how each company is set up. It sounds like your boss explained to you how he wants things done but don't assume it's the same for all charter companies.
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He will be back to answer, but I think the misunderstanding here is "boss" and "chief pilot" aren't the same person.
 
Bryon, very sorry for the spelling error - a reminder to focus. I truly was not trying to throw you under the bus. My intent was simply to address the issues you raised which are some of the most important and difficult in aviation. I had the impression from your initial post that the boss was unhappy with the way you handled the situation and only meant to suggest a methodology that I found useful in the past.

Even though it was about 25 years ago, I clearly recall the uncertainty I felt during my first months of 135 flying.
 
Arnold said:
Even though it was about 25 years ago, I clearly recall the uncertainty I felt during my first months of 135 flying.
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I do too. Even though I was pretty high time when hired, almost all of it was day VFR flying mapping. Then I was alone in a King Air in all kinds of weather flying charter and air ambulance. Good thing the King Air is forgiving and easy to fly. :redface:
 
my biggest fear, which i literally had nightmares about, was getting the passengers loaded up and not being able to start the engines.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm having a hard time figuring out who was unhappy with the way things turned out. Your boss agreed with your decision and you haven't indicated that the passengers were upset. The weather will sometimes be different that forecast and the difference between above minimums and below minimums isn't very much. I agree that with the others that you need to be able to shoot the approach to minimums unless there are some other mitigating factors.

As far as who should be talking to the customers, that is dependent on how each company is set up. It sounds like your boss explained to you how he wants things done but don't assume it's the same for all charter companies.
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The boss, who is also the chief pilot, was irritated after it turned out that the weather cleared enough to do the charter, but the customer had already chosen to get there by other means. He had a legitimate reason for his irritation. The lesson to be learned was don't start worrying about the weather too early. Even though with the information I had at the time, the decision may have been reasonable, the fact is we could have done the charter only a little late had I just waited until the last minute to talk to the customer.
 
tonycondon said:
my biggest fear, which i literally had nightmares about, was getting the passengers loaded up and not being able to start the engines.
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The problem there is that people don't get taught how to properly start engines (because their instructors don't know).

Of course, since your preference is in aircraft without engines... ;)

Aztec Driver said:
This is one area I am still working on. I get very little "all the way down to minimums " flying, so the insecurities do take on a life of their own. But, Arnold, you are right, there shouldn't be a lot of wiggle room, for good reason.

These are the lessons learned.
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That last quote you had was from me, not Arnold. ;)

So my question to you would be: What would it take to get you more comfortable with that sort of flying? The reality is that one seldom needs more than what the minimums provide, and if you can't get in there, that's why you have the legally required fuel and planned alternate to go elsewhere.
 
Aztec Driver said:
The boss, who is also the chief pilot, was irritated after it turned out that the weather cleared enough to do the charter, but the customer had already chosen to get there by other means. He had a legitimate reason for his irritation. The lesson to be learned was don't start worrying about the weather too early. Even though with the information I had at the time, the decision may have been reasonable, the fact is we could have done the charter only a little late had I just waited until the last minute to talk to the customer.
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But, on the other hand, if the weather had not cleared up enough and you had not discussed it with the customer beforehand, the customer would have had fewer options to get to wherever they were going in a timely manner.

Best to do whatever your boss wants but I am giving you another perspective.
 
I found that the 135 operators were primarily concerned about their own best interest rather than the passenger's ability to get where they wanted to go.

Everskyward said:
But, on the other hand, if the weather had not cleared up enough and you had not discussed it with the customer beforehand, the customer would have had fewer options to get to wherever they were going in a timely manner.

Best to do whatever your boss wants but I am giving you another perspective.
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How mad would the boss have been if you deadheaded over to the pickup airport knowing you probably weren't going to get into the destination airport, the trip then gets cancelled and you have to deadhead home? I think you made the right call based on the info you had. Of course the boss is frustrated by the lost revenue, but you can't count on the weather being better than forecast.
 
wabower said:
I found that the 135 operators were primarily concerned about their own best interest rather than the passenger's ability to get where they wanted to go.
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All I can say is that we try to keep the customer in the loop and that is how it's been all along. I can't speak for other places.
 
In which case you probably associate with a higher-class bunch of people.

Everskyward said:
All I can say is that we try to keep the customer in the loop and that is how it's been all along. I can't speak for other places.
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