Charles Manson Dead at 83

Saint Peter was giving a new arrival to Heaven the nickel tour...

"Over there is where the Catholics typically hang out, up on that hill is where the Muslims tend to gather, the Lutherans tend to hang by the river, over in that valley is where the Hindus frequent...."

"What's on the other side of that wall?" The new arrival interrupted.

"Shhhh....that's where the Baptists are, they think they're the only ones here!"
 
"Good Riddance" was my first reaction too. And my last word on it.

But in between, if I step outside of emotion and use purely intellect, I truly believe people like him are born with congenital brain damage. Whatever part of the brain is responsible for empathy and a conscience is missing or completely non-functional. So it's possible they are not morally culpable in the way the rest of us are, who choose to do wrong when we know it hurts others. Nevertheless, people like this are so very destructive, they need to be scrubbed off the face of the earth.

That's why I believe in the death penalty at the point just before a capital crime is committed, carried out by a would-be victim who had the foresight to be armed and trained. (I'm undecided about government carrying out death penalty. I used to be for it but I've discovered too many cases of prosecutorial misconduct and innocent people on death row.)

This brain damage is the difference between being human and being something less so I have no problem calling such people animals. But you'd have to specify which animal. Only the most loathsome cockroach for example, would I compare him to.

But declaring he will rot in hell for all eternity? Well I have said the words myself ("He's in Hell where he belongs!") But it's rhetorical - I don't actually presume to know what God has done with him. Maybe he repented on his deathbed, nobody knows what's in the mind and heart of another. Or if my brain damage theory is true maybe God doesn't punish him at all because the guy had no choice in the matter. God made him how he was. Maybe he was a tool being used by God for some purpose. (Just for the record, I don't really believe that, but I'm not going to presume to know.)

In any case, we need have no sympathy for such "brain damaged" people. They are very good at getting what they want in life at everyone else's expense, due to their complete selfishness. Our approach should be they are a cancer within humanity and should be eradicated by sheepdog citizens at first defensible opportunity.

Thank you to Rich for your summary on the world's various religions!

So now stepping back out of my intellect and back into my visceral reaction: GOOD RIDDANCE.
 
Rushie said:
"Good Riddance" was my first reaction too. And my last word on it.

But in between, if I step outside of emotion and use purely intellect, I truly believe people like him are born with congenital brain damage. Whatever part of the brain is responsible for empathy and a conscience is missing or completely non-functional. So it's possible they are not morally culpable in the way the rest of us are, who choose to do wrong when we know it hurts others. Nevertheless, people like this are so very destructive, they need to be scrubbed off the face of the earth.

That's why I believe in the death penalty at the point just before a capital crime is committed, carried out by a would-be victim who had the foresight to be armed and trained. (I'm undecided about government carrying out death penalty. I used to be for it but I've discovered too many cases of prosecutorial misconduct and innocent people on death row.)

This brain damage is the difference between being human and being something less so I have no problem calling such people animals. But you'd have to specify which animal. Only the most loathsome cockroach for example, would I compare him to.

But declaring he will rot in hell for all eternity? Well I have said the words myself ("He's in Hell where he belongs!") But it's rhetorical - I don't actually presume to know what God has done with him. Maybe he repented on his deathbed, nobody knows what's in the mind and heart of another. Or if my brain damage theory is true maybe God doesn't punish him at all because the guy had no choice in the matter. God made him how he was. Maybe he was a tool being used by God for some purpose. (Just for the record, I don't really believe that, but I'm not going to presume to know.)

In any case, we need have no sympathy for such "brain damaged" people. They are very good at getting what they want in life at everyone else's expense, due to their complete selfishness. Our approach should be they are a cancer within humanity and should be eradicated by sheepdog citizens at first defensible opportunity.

Thank you to Rich for your summary on the world's various religions!

So now stepping back out of my intellect and back into my visceral reaction: GOOD RIDDANCE.
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Thanks.

I also wonder about the effect of obvious mental illness upon someone's destiny, karma, or whatever. But I don't believe in the extreme Calvinist view (probably more extreme than Calvin intended, to be honest) that God predestined those things. I believe that God created natural laws and usually allows natural law to take its course -- including allowing undesirable outcomes like birth defects and physical and mental illnesses. He may intervene from time to time as He sees fit, either directly or through His angels; but most of the time, He allows the natural laws that He created to run their courses.

In other words, He may see the sparrow fall, but He doesn't necessarily stop it from happening.

Rich
 
Ravioli said:
Deplorable, yes. Unrepentant, yes. Vile, yes.

But a person nonetheless.

This is one of those things that tests my Christian values. He did A LOT of bad. And he's easy to hate. But condemning someone to hell is not within my scope. Maybe 50 or 100 thousand years in purgatory would suffice.
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Agreed that it's above our pay grade, as Rich said.

But it's also above my pay grade to sentence someone in the judicial system. That doesn't mean that I can't have a hoped for outcome.

Some General I believe once said that what happens to them after they die is between them and God, it's just up to us to arrange the meeting. I think that sums it up well. Unfortunately in the case of Manson, we let far too much time pass before that meeting occurred.
 
RJM62 said:
Thanks.

I also wonder about the effect of obvious mental illness upon someone's destiny, karma, or whatever. But I don't believe in the extreme Calvinist view (probably more extreme than Calvin intended, to be honest) that God predestined those things. I believe that God created natural laws and usually allows natural law to take its course -- including allowing undesirable outcomes like birth defects and physical and mental illnesses. He may intervene from time to time as He sees fit, either directly or through His angels; but most of the time, He allows the natural laws that He created to run their courses.

In other words, He may see the sparrow fall, but He doesn't necessarily stop it from happening.

Rich
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That's pretty much my viewpoint too.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Some General I believe once said that what happens to them after they die is between them and God, it's just up to us to arrange the meeting. I think that sums it up well. Unfortunately in the case of Manson, we let far too much time pass before that meeting occurred.
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https://www.biography.com/people/norman-schwarzkopf-9476401

general-norman-schwarzkopf-commander-of-the-usled-operation-desert-picture-id635931441
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's it! I'm not good with names.
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"Storming Norman"

His Dad was State Police Superintendent in NJ. Believe his Dad was involved in the investigation of the Linburgh baby kidnapping.
 
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RJM62 said:
In short, the concept of Hell being the automatic and eternal destination of all but the saved or the extraordinarily righteous is the dominant belief in Christianity, but it is a minority belief among the world's religions as a whole.
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Right. Which is why I said his statement pointed to Christianity and not religion in general.

But I will quibble with the idea of Christianity sending only the extraordinarily righteous. That is anti-Christianity and anyone who teaches that has abandoned the basic tenets of the Faith. Substitutionary Atonemnet is the central element of Christian doctrine and by definition is only necessary for those who have fallen from righteousness into sin.
 
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Charley Manson was certifiably insane, the world is a better place today.
 
timwinters said:
Saint Peter was giving a new arrival to Heaven the nickel tour...

"Over there is where the Catholics typically hang out, up on that hill is where the Muslims tend to gather, the Lutherans tend to hang by the river, over in that valley is where the Hindus frequent...."

"What's on the other side of that wall?" The new arrival interrupted.

"Shhhh....that's where the Baptists are, they think they're the only ones here!"
Click to expand...
A joke loses its comic value unless there’s at least a hint of truth to it. This was actually pretty funny.
 
leave it to PoA to ruin a perfectly good serial killer thread with religious babble.
 
eman1200 said:
leave it to PoA to ruin a perfectly good serial killer thread with religious babble.
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Hey, not every thread gets to be ruined by boobs. This is a nice change for some, and it uncharacteristically resembles an adult discussion.
 
When you look at all of the murders and atrocities mankind has comitted, those committed by Manson and his followers are barely a blip on history’s radar. The ongoing fascination and obsession with him is absurd.

As to his current whereabouts, he’s simply dead. Nothing more, nothing less.

Still others might say that the real unfortunate aspect of the murders is that Roman Polanski wasn’t home that night.
 
Cooter said:
Right. Which is why I said his statement pointed to Christianity and not religion in general.

But I will quibble with the idea of Christianity sending only the extraordinarily righteous. That is anti-Christianity and anyone who teaches that has abandoned the basic tenets of the Faith. Substitutionary Atonemnet is the central element of Christian doctrine and by definition is only necessary for those who have fallen from righteousness into sin.
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Which would be everyone including and since Adam, strictly speaking, if the literal translation of harmartios (usually translated as "sin," but literally "missing the mark," as in archery or target shooting) is used, as in Romans 3:23. (But also cf. Romans 2:14-15 for a defense of the gist of your post.)

I'm one of those people who devoted a great deal of time to the study of both religion in general and the Christian religion. I even have a degree in the latter covering a nail hole in my office. But I emerged (and am still emerging) being certain of much less than I was when I started. I used to have all the answers. Now I mainly have questions.

But maybe that's the way it's supposed to work.

Maybe one of these days I'll undertake a PhD in something like Comparative Religion. I've been thinking about it for a long time. If successful, I suppose I'll emerge from it being sure of nothing at all.

Rich
 
SkyDog58 said:
When you look at all of the murders and atrocities mankind has comitted, those committed by Manson and his followers are barely a blip on history’s radar. The ongoing fascination and obsession with him is absurd.
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Very true. There are people in 3rd world countries performing worse atrocities every day, but we don't hear about them. There are also plenty of heinous murders in the US that go unnoticed by the media, at least on a national level. Lots of people serving life sentences for murders out there.
 
RJM62 said:
Which would be everyone including and since Adam, strictly speaking, if the literal translation of harmartios (usually translated as "sin," but literally "missing the mark," as in archery or target shooting) is used, as in Romans 3:23. (But also cf. Romans 2:14-15 for a defense of the gist of your post.)

I'm one of those people who devoted a great deal of time to the study of both religion in general and the Christian religion. I even have a degree in the latter covering a nail hole in my office. But I emerged (and am still emerging) being certain of much less than I was when I started. I used to have all the answers. Now I mainly have questions.

But maybe that's the way it's supposed to work.

Maybe one of these days I'll undertake a PhD in something like Comparative Religion. I've been thinking about it for a long time. If successful, I suppose I'll emerge from it being sure of nothing at all.

Rich
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Yes, Original Sin. It explains a lot about the world as we see and experience it.

It sounds like you've caught an Eastward current in your religious studies! ;)

BTW, it sound like I'm part of the world you're leaving behind. If you're ever curious about what's going on inside the gates I'm happy to chat and have some dialogue. Although I'm certain you would find some of my views extreme, I'm also interested in World Religions.
 
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Cooter said:
Yes, Original Sin. It explains a lot about the world as we see and experience it.

It sounds like you've caught an Eastward current in your religious studies!
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Yes, along with Kabbalah, courtesy of some Jewish friends of mine who have mystical leanings.

Rich
 
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