Changing VFR Altitude While Getting Radar Services

I think you missed the point of the direction of this thread...:yes:..

It appears the "RULES" are a moving target in favor of ATC.....

Also... You never answered the question about the guy in Miami who was vectored into the Bravo and didn't hear those magic words.....:confused::confused:..:dunno:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html

Section 2. Controlled Airspace

3-2-1. General
a. Controlled Airspace. A generic term that covers the different classification of airspace (Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace) and defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification. (See FIG 3-2-1.)
b. IFR Requirements. IFR operations in any class of controlled airspace requires that a pilot must file an IFR flight plan and receive an appropriate ATC clearance.
c. IFR Separation. Standard IFR separation is provided to all aircraft operating under IFR in controlled airspace.
d. VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html

3-2-3. Class B Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL surrounding the nation's busiest airports in terms of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. The configuration of each Class B airspace area is individually tailored and consists of a surface area and two or more layers (some Class B airspace areas resemble upside-down wedding cakes), and is designed to contain all published instrument procedures once an aircraft enters the airspace. An ATC clearance is required for all aircraft to operate in the area, and all aircraft that are so cleared receive separation services within the airspace. The cloud clearance requirement for VFR operations is "clear of clouds."
b. Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements for VFR Operations. Regardless of weather conditions, an ATC clearance is required prior to operating within Class B airspace. Pilots should not request a clearance to operate within Class B airspace unless the requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.215 and 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met. Included among these requirements are:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/V.HTM

VECTOR- A heading issued to an aircraft to provide navigational guidance by radar.
(See ICAO term RADAR VECTORING.)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/A.HTM

AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if information available to the pilot makes another course of action more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy.
(See ATC INSTRUCTIONS.)
(See ICAO term AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL CLEARANCE.)
 
Not me, I prefer to rely on documentation.


LOL! I was told not to believe everything you read. Glad the activity has picked up. Just in time for dinner time reading enjoyment


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
LOL! I was told not to believe everything you read. Glad the activity has picked up. Just in time for dinner time reading enjoyment


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It slowed down after post 129 but the thread is alive again....:D
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Cute answer.... BUT.... If the freq is too busy to ask for a Bravo clearance, does a pilot not follow the last instruction of the controller,, or does he/she bust the Bravo.....

It really is a SIMPLE question... And it seems to NOT get answered...:no:
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Cute answer.... BUT.... If the freq is too busy to ask for a Bravo clearance, does a pilot not follow the last instruction of the controller,, or does he/she bust the Bravo.....

It really is a SIMPLE question... And it seems to NOT get answered...:no:

A clearance is required to enter Class Bravo. And (sadly almost always the case), at the end of the day, it is "on the pilot" to comply with this mandate and most any other FAA mandate.

Pilot should remain clear of Class Bravo until a clearance is received.

MY EDIT (ADDITION):

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0709.html

7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-18, Operational Requests.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.[/SIZE]

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,


and as appropriate,

VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

or

CLEARED AS REQUESTED.

(Additional instructions, as necessary.)

REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)

NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will cause violation of any part of the CFR.
Another Class B incident

https://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/June/Pilot/counsel

The pilot said he was proceeding northwest, squawking transponder code 1200, knowing that Class B airspace was about 30 miles in front of him. He said he attempted to contact ATC but he was not receiving any responses. At the point on the computer-generated plot where the aircraft is in a U-turn attempting to avoid the airspace, he said that he was able to establish communications with ATC. At that point he realized that he had mismanaged his radios and, in fact, had the receiver portion of his radio turned off. Somewhere in the U-turn, he testified that he was able to establish communications with the correct facility, and that the controller spontaneously issued him a discrete transponder code and gave him a clearance into Class B airspace. But the pilot never did testify that he was outside the Class B airspace prior to the U-turn, only that he was unsure. Based on the evidence, the law judge found that the pilot was already in Class B airspace at the time of the U-turn and the clearance.
What I would probably do to avoid Class B in a radio congestion scenario would be avoid it via heading change, make contact with ATC as soon as possible in the meantime, and then enter once a clearance was received. On the ground, file a NASA Form, and maybe call AOPA Legal if in my judgement the situation or event appeared to be escalated soon.

I recommend AOPA Legal plan to everyone, by the way. And NASA Forms
 
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When the pilot is faced with a choice between violating the regulation that requires following ATC instructions, and violating some other regulation, the pilot has to decide which regulation to violate. The pilot's decision should take safety into account, IMO.
 
Cute answer.... BUT.... If the freq is too busy to ask for a Bravo clearance, does a pilot not follow the last instruction of the controller,, or does he/she bust the Bravo.....
As stated several times above, this was answered in the Doremire letter linked above. The Chief Counsel (with the aid of Flight Standards) determined that in this situation, 91.131 trumps 91.123, so the pilot stays out of the Bravo even if that requires deviating from a prior instruction. Of course, if that would create an emergency, 91.3(b) trumps them all and the pilot does whatever is necessary to ensure safety.
 
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I have searched the net for any litigation or FAA action which may have involved ATC issuing instructions to an aircraft flying VFR in Class E or G airspace. I can't find any case where the FAA went after any VFR pilot on flight following in Class E who did not obey an ATC instruction per 91.123. (That regulation has been numbered differently and has had slightly different wording in the past.)

But I did find some court material, though, that contains the reasoning that courts have applied to cases involving ATC/pilot interactions that may shed some light (or confusion) on how such a case may be handled by a court.

CASE 1: Not an FAA action. Lawsuit against the government, claiming ATC was at fault for an accident. Naturally the government claims otherwise because the aircraft in question were flying VFR. The following text (and all the material I quote henceforth) needs to be read in context, but basically this court treats the ATC procedures manual as having the force of law.
"Standards for measuring the air traffic controller's duties to aircraft in his control zone are prescribed in the Air Traffic Control Procedures (14 C. F.R. 617). These regulations have the force and effect of law. Hochrein v. United States, 238 F.Supp. 317, 319 (E. *1143 D.Pa.1965); United States v. Schultetus, supra."
...
"The separation regulation, upon which the plaintiffs rely, relates to radar identified aircraft and the separation of two or more planes on take-off and in descent or climbing. It does not appear to control an aircraft flying under visual conditions in a hold pattern. A.T.C. Procedures § 321.1.

The main responsibility for the safe flight of aircraft in the control zone under visual flight conditions resides with its pilot. "Nonetheless, before a pilot can be held legally responsible for the movement of his aircraft he must know, or be held to have known, those facts which were then material to the safe operation of his aircraft." Hartz v. United States, 387 F.2d 870, 873 (5th Cir. 1968)."
https://www.courtlistener.com/vtd/8fwW/ross-v-united-states/

CASE 2: Another lawsuit against the government. Where the court in the first case says ATC written procedures have the force of law, this one says no they don't. I think they are making a determination for the same purpose, but maybe not.
"The plaintiffs' case is not based on a violation of regulations. Rather, it is based on FAA manuals, such as the AIM and the ATCM, which do not have the force of law but only provide evidence of the standard of care among pilots and controllers. Id. Still, “a substantial and unjustified failure to follow procedures made mandatory by the manual is persuasive as an indication of a lack of due care.” Fed. Express Corp., 664 F.2d at 835 (quoting Delta Air Lines, Inc., 561 F.2d at 390) (emphasis added)."
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1299152.html

CASE 3: Lawsuit against the government for a midair crash. I'm including this only because I found it amusing to see the government actually try to claim that an ATC instruction that lead to a crash within an airport's vicinity was merely advisory. The court didn't buy it. Unfortunately the airspace class didn't come up and I can't tell whether the government argued the accident took place outside the airport's airspace.
"In contravention, the Government asserts that the instruction issued by the local controller to proceed straight across final was merely advisory. However, the mandatory nature of such instructions is clearly provided for in the federal regulation, which states:"
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...q="compliance+with+atc"+vfr&hl=en&as_sdt=2006

CASE 4: Action against a pilot. This one I found interesting because the pilot appears to have actually won his case when he claimed he didn't hear an instruction. The NTSB appeared to side with the pilot. A subtle but possibly relevant aspect to note is that the FAA limited itself to saying the pilot failed to heed the altitude instruction "when entering Fresno airspace." Implication being that it was not applicable outside that airspace.
"Rolund's defense to the charge that he violated an air traffic control instruction to remain at or above 2,500 feet while descending into Fresno was that he "did not hear" that part of the instruction. The transcript of the radio instruction verifies that the instruction was transmitted."
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...affic+control+is+exercised"&hl=en&as_sdt=2006
 
Vectors happen in airspace that doesn't require seperation all the time. If you have no problem with it then continue to keep using FF. I've recieved some serious vectors out of my way once with ATL approach. After the last vector I cancelled and went on my own. The controller was vectoring me around arrivals to ATL that weren't even close to me. There are vectors to prevent an accident, then there are vectors that are completely unessesary. Lets face it, not all controllers can disgunguish between the two. What looks close on radar doesn't always mirror what's out our windows.

Getting excessive vectors and altitude restrictions isn't exactly a major problem in the NAS. Here's the thing though, there are differing opinions just on this website alone when it comes to ATC's authority in class E. Some want the hands off approach while others wonder why ATC didn't step in when they had a close call with traffic. How many times have we heard on POA something like "ATC was calling this traffic that was 12 o'clock and opposite direction and they didn't vector me around it!" That's because they're complying with the order and allowing the PIC to decide if a vector is necessary. If it comes to safety alert, ATC will advise of a heading IAW Ch2 of the .65. It's still left up to the PIC to take that heading. If it comes down to a safety alert, I'm taking the heading.

Call me crazy but I personally like how the .65 is written to allow the PIC the decision making when it comes to accepting a vector for traffic during FF.

Ok cool, thanks.

Yeah I've received a few of those calls (fortunately, not too many) "traffic xxx,xxx advise you turn 30 degrees left NOW!
 
You don't need a clearance to operate in the Mode C veil, but you are in controlled airspace there (unless you're very low). In that case, you do what the controller says unless it will either cause a collision hazard (or other emergency) or take you into the actual B-space without a clearance.

Whatever you felt was in your own best interest.


That's my thinking:).

Oh, I only mentioned the Mode C veil as a position reference for those unfamiliar with the NY airspace.

Thanks
 

You use red to emphasize what you feel are the important parts of these references. In post #129 you quoted paragraph 5−6−1. APPLICATION of Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 5. Radar, Section 6. Vectoring, in full; but only emphasized the first two words in that paragraph, "Vector aircraft:". Did you read all of that paragraph? Did you not believe subparagraph g. was important to this discussion?

g. Operating VFR at those locations where a special program is established, or when a pilot requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Cute answer.... BUT.... If the freq is too busy to ask for a Bravo clearance, does a pilot not follow the last instruction of the controller,, or does he/she bust the Bravo.....

It really is a SIMPLE question... And it seems to NOT get answered...:no:

You'd have to choose which "safety-related" FAR you're going to violate.
 
As stated several times above, this was answered in the Doremire letter linked above. The Chief Counsel (with the aid of Flight Standards) determined that in this situation, 91.131 trumps 91.123, so the pilot stays out of the Bravo even if that requires deviating from a prior instruction. Of course, if that would create an emergency, 91.3(b) trumps them all and the pilot does whatever is necessary to ensure safety.

The trouble is, they contradicted themselves three years later, in the Karas letter. That really muddied the waters in this situation.
 
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