Champs, bad economy, or too many planes I guess?

James331

James331

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James331
So on another board I see this guy selling a 7AC champ, AWSOME airplane, it's actually the type of plane I learned to fly in.

I click it just because and the dude is only asking $7500, needs TLC but fly able, WTF!

Even though I have my 185 and am by no means in the market for a plane I even took a few seconds to think if I could fit this thing in my hangar with my 185, no dice.

So I'm browsing around and see the post come back up in recent activity, I think to myself well let's see the "SOLD" post with the picture of the plane and lucky SOB who stole this thing, but it hasn't sold!

Ether way, thought I'd link it incase anyone here is looking for airplane, or isn't but unlike me has room for it somewhere.


FYI, I have zero affiliation with the add, just seemed like a good deal someone should score on.



https://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/fs-1946-champ-7ac-18843
 
Post yesterday the seller says he's gonna recover it and keep it unless he gets a reasonable offer . Maybe the condition is worse and even at $7500 too much?
 
mscard88 said:
Post yesterday the seller says he's gonna recover it and keep it unless he gets a reasonable offer . Maybe the condition is worse and even at $7500 too much?
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Maybe, but I think more likely the economy is the issue. You have to consider the ongoing costs of owning a certificated aircraft, which I think would be a much scarier issue than the purchase price to someone with a shaky opinion about the short-term economy.

On the other hand, I've seen trailerable ultralights in merely average condition selling quite quickly for almost that much, at least partly because the ongoing costs of owning one and keeping it flyable are extremely low.

Rich
 
I wouldn't call that a deal... Engine needs to be opened up and re-sealed at the least and possibly some overhaul work. A certified recover job is going to be 10-12 grand or more. Then it will need a paint job which will be 5-6k or more. Suddenly you have a $25,000.00 65 hp airplane with no electrical system and an old engine. If you are an A&P or know one that will sign off your work then it's probably a decent buy. If you have to pay someone to do it all you would about have to give the plane away or sell it for parts.
 
I just read the thread. Sounds a bit drama queen-ish. You've got an old ragged out airplane leaking oil and can be flown with a "weekend of TLC" whatever that means. You ask $7,500 OBO, knowing it's gonna be a project for someone. Don't be surprised when you get low-ball offers.

There are plenty of "nearly airworthy" planes out there that are basically only worth salvage value. Unless you're an A&P with nothing to work on at the moment, it's probably still not that great of a deal at 75. That just reality.
 
Start pricing recovering jobs and you will see why no one is buying it at $7500. The fabric is described as "pretty bad".

A cub might be worth that, but not a champ. Its basically worth the engine core.
 
Shame it can't be made experimental. If it was suddenly the price is a little more attractive.
 
If/when PBOR2 passes, the prices on certified "LSA-eligible" (< 1320 MGW) types will likely plummet, while the market for family-size light singles might firm up some.
 
dell30rb said:
Start pricing recovering jobs and you will see why no one is buying it at $7500. The fabric is described as "pretty bad".

A cub might be worth that, but not a champ. Its basically worth the engine core.
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Then there's the wooden spar AD that's often not done properly...
 
Brad Z said:
I just read the thread. Sounds a bit drama queen-ish. You've got an old ragged out airplane leaking oil and can be flown with a "weekend of TLC" whatever that means. You ask $7,500 OBO, knowing it's gonna be a project for someone. Don't be surprised when you get low-ball offers.

There are plenty of "nearly airworthy" planes out there that are basically only worth salvage value. Unless you're an A&P with nothing to work on at the moment, it's probably still not that great of a deal at 75. That just reality.
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Well... The seller did frame it in DIY-sort of terms, and you really wouldn't need to be an A&P to re-cover it. That's pretty easy (albeit maddeningly tedious) work. If combined with an annual by the right IA, anyone with enough patience could do the job and save a bundle. The IA could then sign off on the re-covering, doping / painting, and re-weighing at the same time as the annual.

It's certainly not a job for someone who just wants to hop in and fly, though. I agree with you there.

The powerplant work is another story. There's not enough information there to know what you'd be getting into. Engines that haven't been run in a while often have all sorts of problems beyond the obvious ones.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Well... The seller did frame it in DIY-sort of terms, and you really wouldn't need to be an A&P to re-cover it. That's pretty easy (albeit maddeningly tedious) work. If combined with an annual by the right IA, anyone with enough patience could do the job and save a bundle. The IA could then sign off on the re-covering, doping / painting, and re-weighing at the same time as the annual.

It's certainly not a job for someone who just wants to hop in and fly, though. I agree with you there.

The powerplant work is another story. There's not enough information there to know what you'd be getting into. Engines that haven't been run in a while often have all sorts of problems beyond the obvious ones.

Rich
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I just reviewed appendix A of 14 CFR part 43, and unless this thing only needs "simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces", it's not preventive maintenance and will require an A&P to return to service. Not exactly DIY unless you're an A&P or have an A&P friend. And then there's that oil leak...
 
I'll bet the guy could give it to you for free and by the time you recover and fix the engine you're upside down on it.
 
Well posting it on backcountry it's more of a summer do it yourself crowd, with spot checks from your friendly APIA, not a drop it off at a big box FBO and cut a fatty check.


New seals and a fabric job on a lil 7AC ain't that bad.

IMO a 7AC is a ton more airplane compared to a diamond, 172, 152, etc. I'd toss some new seals on that 65hp, fly her years and years, once overhaul time comes around is 85hp it. In the hands of a good pilot you can damn near land that plane on a beer coaster.

Just thought I'd post it over here
 
Brad Z said:
I just reviewed appendix A of 14 CFR part 43, and unless this thing only needs "simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces", it's not preventive maintenance and will require an A&P to return to service. Not exactly DIY unless you're an A&P or have an A&P friend. And then there's that oil leak...
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I didn't say it was preventive maintenance. I said an IA could sign it off with the annual. An IA was an A&P before becoming an IA.

Also, I've read quite a few posts about needing to "have a friend who's an A&P." The A&P (or IA) doesn't have to be your friend. There's nothing illegal about paying an A&P or IA to advise, consult, supervise, inspect, and sign off on owner-performed work. You may have trouble finding one who's willing to do so, but maybe not. Re-covering an aircraft with fabric is very straightforward work.

Rich
 
Always interesting to read all the comments on why no plane should ever be bought....
 
Especially a sweetheart fly able airframe which will burn auto fuel, selling for less then a dirt bike.....
 
James331 said:
Especially a sweetheart fly able airframe which will burn auto fuel, selling for less then a dirt bike.....
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Truly. The re-covering materials are cheap if you want to go DIY, so that would be the least of my concerns. If you know it needs re-covering, then that's a known quantity.

I'd be more cautious about the engine and the wood. That Champ probably didn't live its whole live in AZ, after all.

Rich
 
Dan Thomas said:
Then there's the wooden spar AD that's often not done properly...
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...but last I heard (admittedly a few years ago) had never found anything unless the airplane had a ground-loop wing strike (which should be obvious) or done aerobatics.

But yes, find a competent mechanic for the prepurchase inspection.
 
RJM62 said:
Truly. The re-covering materials are cheap if you want to go DIY, so that would be the least of my concerns. If you know it needs re-covering, then that's a known quantity.

Rich
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Some of us have jobs, Rich. Moreover, the aircraft is certificated, meaning the recovering has to be done by or under the supervision of an A&P, and they cost money. Projects like this are for love, not sense. The smart strategy is to buy from the guy who already did all this stuff.
 
About 30K in and it will be a nice plane. :O)
 
MauleSkinner said:
...but last I heard (admittedly a few years ago) had never found anything unless the airplane had a ground-loop wing strike (which should be obvious) or done aerobatics.

But yes, find a competent mechanic for the prepurchase inspection.
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It's age and hours that wreck the spars, not accidents or aerobatics. The wood shrinks with age, especially across the grain, so that the spar gets narrower top-to-bottom. Since the aluminum ribs are nailed to the spars, the nails tend to split the spars along the grain, since the nail holes in the wood are getting closer together but the holes in the ribs aren't.

The aging can also cause cracks around the spar root attach fitting holes.

The hours has to do with the loading of the spars. There are plywood doublers on the spar at the strut attach points, and those doublers have a local stiffening effect on the wood. The stresses therefore pile up in the spar at the ends of those doublers, and grain compression can be found there on top of the spar. Compressing the grain weakens it, like crushing fiberglass so that the resin crumbles but the glass fiber is still there but useless. The AD demands holes be cut in the top of the wing along the LE to look for that, but many don't get that and the inspection isn't done right.

We re-did the wings on a 7EC in the late '90s and found the cracks at the nail holes (even cracking across the grain there) as well as other suspicious stuff.
 
It just depends on if you want a project or a plane. You can get a really nice flying champ for 25k or buy a project and end up with the same or more tied up in it.
 
I did my last biennial in a Champ and I experienced nothing awesome about this ancient old crate. Aileron and rudder response are "move the stick and wait". It's true you can land on a dime with it but you can land on a dime with a C-310 just as well, and go a lot faster than 70 MPH. It's boring, awful to fly, slow, and is about the last plane on my list that I would consider "fun" to fly. I don't think a Cub is much, if any, better . . . so I'm a heretic I know. Burn me at the stake.
 
MikeS said:
I did my last biennial in a Champ and I experienced nothing awesome about this ancient old crate. Aileron and rudder response are "move the stick and wait". It's true you can land on a dime with it but you can land on a dime with a C-310 just as well, and go a lot faster than 70 MPH. It's boring, awful to fly, slow, and is about the last plane on my list that I would consider "fun" to fly. I don't think a Cub is much, if any, better . . . so I'm a heretic I know. Burn me at the stake.
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Some folks enjoy flight, others just use it as a tool.

For a aviator, someone who really loves flight, the 7AC is a great aircraft, she won't impress anyone in the cirrus world, not that that's a bad thing, just a plane for an aviator not a commuter.
 
James331 said:
Especially a sweetheart fly able airframe which will burn auto fuel, selling for less then a dirt bike.....
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If I'm reading the thread correctly, it is not flyable without at least two-days' work (and assume the seller is being optimistic).
 
dell30rb said:
Start pricing recovering jobs and you will see why no one is buying it at $7500. The fabric is described as "pretty bad".

A cub might be worth that, but not a champ. Its basically worth the engine core.
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Yup.
 
You never know until you look closely at the plane and the logbooks. Deals can be had, for sure.
 
Just the materials for a Stits job will be over $3000 and just the Aerothane paint at over $200 gal will be over another $1000. I know as I'm right in the middle of covering a Supercub and just bought all the supplies a couple months ago. My labor will run about $12000 just for the fabric not the final paint. Then you have the engine and other problems to contend with plus if you have it pulled apart for fabric you'll want to do the interior, improve the panel, add a new radio etc. Pretty soon you have a $40,000 Champ. Don
 
> "Some folks enjoy flight, others just use it as a tool."

This is my "tool". You'd better be something of an aviator to fly it. It flies with a fingertip, responds instantly, cruises for 700 miles at 13.5 at over twice the speed of the best a Champ or Cub will do, and burns about the same fuel as that ragwing POC.
 

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But made my living in the bush for some years flying one (several) of these and is probably what you meant by "tool." It's dear to my heart and will do things the book gives no inkling of. Not only a work of art, it can do things only you'd think a helicopter would be capable of.
 

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Grum.Man said:
I wouldn't call that a deal... Engine needs to be opened up and re-sealed at the least and possibly some overhaul work. A certified recover job is going to be 10-12 grand or more. Then it will need a paint job which will be 5-6k or more. Suddenly you have a $25,000.00 65 hp airplane with no electrical system and an old engine. If you are an A&P or know one that will sign off your work then it's probably a decent buy. If you have to pay someone to do it all you would about have to give the plane away or sell it for parts.
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8 years ago I bought a very nice champ,( I had to go light sport) 85 hp, milinium cyl. Ceconite 8 years before, transceiver, starter , transponder, nice interior, wheel pants . I paid thirty grand . I bought it from a retired airline captain who kept it hangared and took very good care of it. He was thru flying. I flew it for three years, sold it for thirty three grand. Grum man is correct I think. A 65 hp engine is hard to get parts for and getting harder plus , with a passenger a 65 champ is a dog on a summer day. The 85 helps but it's sure not a 150 hp Citabria which I flew a lot.
 
You can see this 30,000 champ by googling the n number, N 81607. ( it also had a new McCauley prop 72/43 ) it was cubby green and white. Nice little champ , flew very well.
 
yakdriver said:
Just the materials for a Stits job will be over $3000 and just the Aerothane paint at over $200 gal will be over another $1000. I know as I'm right in the middle of covering a Supercub and just bought all the supplies a couple months ago. My labor will run about $12000 just for the fabric not the final paint. Then you have the engine and other problems to contend with plus if you have it pulled apart for fabric you'll want to do the interior, improve the panel, add a new radio etc. Pretty soon you have a $40,000 Champ. Don
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A friend just got done covering a Citabria for a guy, and $40k is pretty close to the number the owner paid to get it done. So your numbers are very realistic. There is a lot more to a recover job than just fabric and paint. Things such as Windows, trim pieces, etc. all start adding up when they get broken during disassembly or are sub par to begin with and need to be replaced or repaired.

Furthermore, the Champ market seems to be going soft lately. A couple of years ago it didn't seem like asking prices went much below $30k for them. Now lately I see them advertised all day long for high teens. Unless the Champ in question has better fabric than described and just needs an annual and some engine work I don't see this as being any great deal.

I recently passed on buying a running, flying Stinson with floats, skis, and wheels for not much more than the asking price of this champ. Why? Because it would take too much money (and work) to get it where it really needs to be.
 
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