CFI's -- Would you sign them off?

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rt4388

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rt4388
Long story short, my old company has asked me to sign off two students for their initial Commercial, Multi checkride. The students are chinese, contract students. Of the two students they want endorsements for, I flew 7.1 and 3.1 hours with them--basically at the end of their training. I have done very little ground with them as they were another instructor's students before I got them. They have not flown since the middle of April (should get 1 or 2 review flights) and I last flew with them around April 15th. Honestly, I can't even remember how they fly because its been quite a while and I flew with about 70 students while instructing there. The school's thought is "you sent them to 'End of Course' stage check so that implies you thought they were ready", which is obviously just an internal process and in no way the same as signing someone off for checkride.

I've decided I won't sign them off, but I'm curious what you all would do. What other factors would you consider?

What do you think the FSDO would think about me signing them off? In my opinion, this is dangerously close to getting scrutinized by the FSDO, which is why I've decided I'm not going to mess with it.
 
when you refuse you might not have a job with that school but that’s ok. i wouldn’t want to work for a school that would ask me to do that.
 
Walboy said:
It's your ticket, not the flight school's and therefore your decision.
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Agreed. It's just a bummer when you get messages from the school saying "you bailed on your students", we're "disappointed", and how "unfortunate" and "unprofessional" it is. Obviously, I care for the student's and their success. I just wanted to see what other's assessments are to make sure mine isn't too far off.
 
Me, I would require them to do a mock checkride with me to convince me that they are ready for the checkride.

I recently have an examiner question my decision to recommend an instrument student when I had not flown with him for over 5 weeks. I knew the student was an over achiever and had been flying with some well qualified safety pilots in the mean time, so I had no trouble recommending him, he did fine.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
Me, I would require them to do a mock checkride with me to convince me that they are ready for the checkride.

I recently have an examiner question my decision to recommend an instrument student when I had not flown with him for over 5 weeks. I knew the student was an over achiever and had been flying with some well qualified safety pilots in the mean time, so I had no trouble recommending him, he did fine.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Yea, of course I would do this, but I no longer work for the company and I live on the other side of the country now.
 
Just say no and move on. You will have a great story when asked at your regional interview, "Describe a time . . . "
 
Tell them

money-10000-front.jpg


talks....

Actually, I am guessing all the other instructors that flew with the two students are no longer at the flight school as well, so why doesn't the chief pilot fly a review with them and sign them off.??

Also, is it in house checkrides or will a DPE do the checkride.?? If in house, I am sure they will pass....
 
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Your old company,sure their not looking out for you.They make the money you take the risk.
 
Zeldman said:
Tell them

money-10000-front.jpg


talks....

Actually, I am guessing all the other instructors that flew with the two students are no longer at the flight school as well, so why doesn't the chief pilot fly a review with them and sign them off.??

Also, is it in house checkrides or will a DPE do the checkride.?? If in house, I am sure they will pass....
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Management doesn't have their MEIs. They're all CFI only. Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but it is interesting when they try to teach us multi drivers something when they've never even flown it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The OP's story reminds me of the attitude of the school Alex Stone (@Freight Dog or @freightdog) wrote about in his CFI book.
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For everyone's benefit, here's the description. Its basically spot on.

"An underpaid, overworked Certified Flight Instructor cheats death while attempting to teach a cast of incompetent student pilots to fly at a skeezy South Florida flight school; all in the quest to build flight time so he can get a “real job” at an airline. The planes break, the regs break, metal gets bent, students are lost at sea, and a Top Gun wannabe student, who has four hundred hours of flight instruction, still hasn’t made his first solo flight. “CFI! The Book” is an over-the-top satirical aviation comedy that’s loosely based on real world experiences of flight instruction, but if the FAA asks, this is all strictly fictional."

And they're still bugging me about signing the guy off--except now its the original boss's boss. They keep saying tell us why you don't think you can sign them off and I keep giving the same answer...
 
rt4388 said:
Long story short, my old company has asked me to sign off two students for their initial Commercial, Multi checkride. The students are chinese, contract students. Of the two students they want endorsements for, I flew 7.1 and 3.1 hours with them--basically at the end of their training. I have done very little ground with them as they were another instructor's students before I got them. They have not flown since the middle of April (should get 1 or 2 review flights) and I last flew with them around April 15th. Honestly, I can't even remember how they fly because its been quite a while and I flew with about 70 students while instructing there. The school's thought is "you sent them to 'End of Course' stage check so that implies you thought they were ready", which is obviously just an internal process and in no way the same as signing someone off for checkride.

I've decided I won't sign them off, but I'm curious what you all would do. What other factors would you consider?

What do you think the FSDO would think about me signing them off? In my opinion, this is dangerously close to getting scrutinized by the FSDO, which is why I've decided I'm not going to mess with it.
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I understand the general issue of your question, but the details you provided don't make any sense to me. Since you said "old company", so I assume you are no longer working for them. So why would they call you and ask you to do anything?

Middle of April was literally 3 weeks ago. That doesn't seem like a very long time to me. How is it that you don't remember how they flew?

In any case, you are not obligated to sign anything unless there is clear and demonstrated evidence that they meet the criteria. In fact, any employer asking you to do so is being irresponsible.
 
You didn't tell us what the "same answer" was, unless I missed it. But you should say that you need more time with them, you are not comfortable signing them off and you don't want to be on the hook if they kill themselves. That should end the discussion.
 
You know if you just wait oh a couple more weeks you can just say "sorry outside the two calendar months"
 
rt4388 said:
For everyone's benefit, here's the description. Its basically spot on.

"An underpaid, overworked Certified Flight Instructor cheats death while attempting to teach a cast of incompetent student pilots to fly at a skeezy South Florida flight school; all in the quest to build flight time so he can get a “real job” at an airline. The planes break, the regs break, metal gets bent, students are lost at sea, and a Top Gun wannabe student, who has four hundred hours of flight instruction, still hasn’t made his first solo flight. “CFI! The Book” is an over-the-top satirical aviation comedy that’s loosely based on real world experiences of flight instruction, but if the FAA asks, this is all strictly fictional."

And they're still bugging me about signing the guy off--except now its the original boss's boss. They keep saying tell us why you don't think you can sign them off and I keep giving the same answer...
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I might have gone to that school;)
 
rt4388 said:
Management doesn't have their MEIs. They're all CFI only. Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but it is interesting when they try to teach us multi drivers something when they've never even flown it.
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Wow... a flight school that has a chief pilot that doesn't have an MEI... is he one of the owners.??
 
I’d always require my students to do a refresher flight if the time between EOC and the Checkride was over two weeks. If I got handed a student at the end of their training I’d slide in a mock EOC as an extra lesson before I’d sign them off for the EOC or checkride.

I didn’t care if their last CFI was Chuck Yeager. I wanted to see every PTS task required with my own Mk.1 Eyeballs.
 
rt4388 said:
Yea, of course I would do this, but I no longer work for the company and I live on the other side of the country now.
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I'm not a CFI, but...

You are on the other side of the country, you no longer work for the company in question and you don't really remember the two students. And it's your ticket, not the company's on the line. That would be a simple decision for me. No signature. You don't work there any more, so they can't fire you. And I assume (dangerous word, I know) that you already have a new job, so they can't exactly torpedo your job hunt.

Now, keep in mind that I'm just another person on the internet, and I'm retired, to boot. So I don't have anything in this fight, one way or the other. :D
 
Zeldman said:
Wow... a flight school that has a chief pilot that doesn't have an MEI... is he one of the owners.??
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Nope. I can think of two people in management that have their MEI (not my location). And about 4 that don't. And of those 4, I don't think any have their CFII's either. Also, most have about 500-1250 hours total time. It's actually pretty interesting when they create new SOPs. 100% of the time they implement new SOPs then tell CFIs the changes without consultation. Lots of interesting policies like only priming the seminole two times, only 3 pumps then one pump, airspeeds, maneuvers, etc..

One that really bugged me was the airspeed on final in the seminole. The POH says you can fly as slow as 80 knots if "lightly loaded"--otherwise use 90 knots. Yet the school requires us to teach 80 knots for all normal landings--seems a bit riskier considering the length of our runways, closer to Vmc, stall speed, etc. They wanted us to teach accelerated stalls at 68 knots, but I taught at 80 due to the ACS. They said I was too fast and then two weeks later I was told I was too slow because the new school standard was 90 knots.

Now that you got me started on my rant, it was very much a do this because I told you to and don't ask questions culture--whether that was safety related, policy related, etc.. I got my time pretty quickly so I can't complain too much, but definitely eye opening how incompetent and arrogant management was when it came to listening to CFIs thoughts/concerns.
 
Can someone explain the relationship between a CFI sign off and it’s your ticket phraseology...and yes I am serious. I came through the military system and don’t understand the liability? Are not these guys taking a check ride with set standards...I am missing something...
 
Warlock said:
Can someone explain the relationship between a CFI sign off and it’s your ticket phraseology...and yes I am serious. I came through the military system and don’t understand the liability? Are not these guys taking a check ride with set standards...I am missing something...
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If I understand your question, the school can't exist without my flight instructor certificate. The school itself can't get its own CFI cert, only a person can. But sometimes our interests/incentives aren't aligned. In this case, they may want to push the student through with minimal training (costs) since they are contract students (fixed revenue).

The idea is that it's my CFI certificate, not the schools so I get to choose what I will do with it. No matter how many DPEs, airplanes, good weather days they have, no one will get a cert unless I put my signature on that endorsement. But, on the flip side of that, the certificate is only mine to lose. Hence "it's your ticket (cert)".

In terms of liability, if the student has an accident post checkride pass, the FSDO may ask me about my training with them and they may review the training records. However, since they got their cert, they may scrutinize the DPE a bit more. If they saw a trend of accidents related to the DPE or the instructor they might start to ask more questions, but I haven't seen this, only heard of it's possibility.

Of course there are standards and in this case the student met the standards almost a month ago. In my opinion, just meeting the standards once or twice doesn't satisfy the instructor's responsibility to say they are prepared. Things like ADM, situational awareness, etc while may not explicitly called out in the ACS are definitely tested on the checkride. I don't think after a couple of flights I can truly access this, and I have a feeling the FSDO might would feel the same.

Not sure if this answered your questions, but hope it helps.
 
I won't sign anyone off 2 weeks + after I fly with them. I'll sign them off as soon as they prove they are ready.

I will and have taken other CFI's students and flown with them 3+ hours, done a Mock Oral and signed them off. I had no issue with this, despite not training them more than the required checkride prep time. They got a VERY complete evaluation of their skills and knowledge.
 
rt4388 said:
Nope. I can think of two people in management that have their MEI (not my location). And about 4 that don't. And of those 4, I don't think any have their CFII's either. Also, most have about 500-1250 hours total time. It's actually pretty interesting when they create new SOPs. 100% of the time they implement new SOPs then tell CFIs the changes without consultation. Lots of interesting policies like only priming the seminole two times, only 3 pumps then one pump, airspeeds, maneuvers, etc..

One that really bugged me was the airspeed on final in the seminole. The POH says you can fly as slow as 80 knots if "lightly loaded"--otherwise use 90 knots. Yet the school requires us to teach 80 knots for all normal landings--seems a bit riskier considering the length of our runways, closer to Vmc, stall speed, etc. They wanted us to teach accelerated stalls at 68 knots, but I taught at 80 due to the ACS. They said I was too fast and then two weeks later I was told I was too slow because the new school standard was 90 knots.

Now that you got me started on my rant, it was very much a do this because I told you to and don't ask questions culture--whether that was safety related, policy related, etc.. I got my time pretty quickly so I can't complain too much, but definitely eye opening how incompetent and arrogant management was when it came to listening to CFIs thoughts/concerns.
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This is good practice for your airline job. Just roll with it, it's the way things are.
 
I’ll give you a counter argument. Why would you sign them off for your schools end of course and not be willing to sign them off for their rides. While you said there’s liability, the far greater liability is with the DPE if they pass and and you still have a trail liability with any pilot who has a current solo endorsement from you and any other pilot that you made an entry into their logbook.

I do agree that it’s totally up to you. I do question your motivation for not signing the guys off. What was the reason for the month delay? Where you holding the flight school hostage or is there a back story?
 
Not a CFI, but I, for one, respond real well to someone that I will probably never deal with again trying to shame me into doing something that they know they have no right to ask...
 
Thanks for the answer...I had never seen action against a CFI or DPE for a former student, my only experience is with the fatal crash in my airplane where credentials and checkout were not even questioned...thought it it strange with two dead but no one seemed to care.
 
Warlock said:
Thanks for the answer...I had never seen action against a CFI or DPE for a former student, my only experience is with the fatal crash in my airplane where credentials and checkout were not even questioned...thought it it strange with two dead but no one seemed to care.
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It's very rare from the FAA unless it's pretty egregious or demonstrates a pattern by the DPE or instructor. In terms of civil liability, despite urban legends like the CFI who gets sued because the logbook entries said "power off stalls" but not "and recoveries", instructional malpractice is very difficult to prove and is rejected as a theory in a good number of states. This is a severely dated article (1996) but gives a still generally accurate picture of CFI liability: Tiger by the Tail.

Like yours, most post-accident CFI inquiries (at least when the CFI is not in the airplane and it is not a soloing student pilot) are about trying to find out what happened rather than trying to hold the CFI liable. That doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it's a difficult case to make and is rare.
 
Some time ago we had an ex-student suffer a non-fatal accident after earning his PPL. He tried to blame his CFI, alleging that he had not been taught about the risk of carburetor icing. Which was of course an absurd claim. Nothing too significant came of it, but it was an unpleasant experience, and did involve having to muster legal support, and review school procedures, checklists, etc.
 
rt4388 said:
Long story short, my old company has asked me to sign off two students for their initial Commercial, Multi checkride. The students are chinese, contract students. Of the two students they want endorsements for, I flew 7.1 and 3.1 hours with them--basically at the end of their training. I have done very little ground with them as they were another instructor's students before I got them. They have not flown since the middle of April (should get 1 or 2 review flights) and I last flew with them around April 15th. Honestly, I can't even remember how they fly because its been quite a while and I flew with about 70 students while instructing there. The school's thought is "you sent them to 'End of Course' stage check so that implies you thought they were ready", which is obviously just an internal process and in no way the same as signing someone off for checkride.

I've decided I won't sign them off, but I'm curious what you all would do. What other factors would you consider?

What do you think the FSDO would think about me signing them off? In my opinion, this is dangerously close to getting scrutinized by the FSDO, which is why I've decided I'm not going to mess with it.
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I think you knew you were a short timer and hosed these two students.
 
I'd think the training facility being part 61 or 141 would make a difference. Also mock check ride is good idea. Students should as the the school pay for the 90 minute mock check ride if they pass and the issue was CFI retention at the school.

The continuous caravan of Asian pilots is a money source for the school, and they would have an interest in protecting their training reputation back in Asia for keeping the gravy train running.

-David
 
Seems to me that if you can’t tell if a guy is ready after flying with him for 7.1, you aren’t really in tune with the student.
 
Landing Fees said:
Seems to me that if you can’t tell if a guy is ready after flying with him for 7.1, you aren’t really in tune with the student.
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And he cant remember the students performance and can’t rely on the evaluation he recorded and signed in the students training record.... If he rated the student proficient and now concerned he isn’t.... Sounds like new found CFI ethics after failure.
 
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Warlock said:
Thanks for the answer...I had never seen action against a CFI or DPE for a former student, my only experience is with the fatal crash in my airplane where credentials and checkout were not even questioned...thought it it strange with two dead but no one seemed to care.
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The other side of it is the FAA tracks CFI student pass/fail rates. A CFI with a very poor pass rate may get some extra attention from the FSDO to see how or why they are endorsing students that can't pass checkrides. It is in a CFI's best interest to not to endorse students that they aren't confident in. Not saying you have to have a perfect record, things happen, but if your pass rate is under 50% someone will want to know why.
 
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