CFI's: Would You Advise Your Student to Fly with a Broken Attitude Indicator?

My, isn't our horse high today?



An instrument rating would have been a bit more helpful, since you were in IMC, something I myself avoid with a bit of a passion.

I have to admit, when contemplating flying over northern Michigan at night (not entirely different from your desert) I did check the AI, since I figured I'd need it. But for most situations in my environment that qualify as VFR I don't, and if I actually need it it means I've blundered into someplace I really shouldn't be. Some of us don't do that.

I had one and my 14000 ATP friend also had one - but this is a situation where the ground based weather reporter tells you its VFR - you don't know what you don't know til you take off -

We got smart and simply turned out bound to 5nm indicated out, tuned in the LOC while it still worked and turn back and flew the LOC back in without a formal instrument clearance . . . we're there.
 
Do ya'll not have a DG and a vacuum gauge?

Hell, an AI is a secondary source for almost every IFR maneuver.

.

When I did my IR proficiency check last October [I do one every year regardless of currency] my instructor covered up the AI and I never noticed it - finally he got smarted and covered up the HSI too . . .

The AI is the only instrument onboard that still uses vacuum. And I have a Standby Vac for that . . .
 
About the only thing I can think that might cause a failure of the vac that would be a hazard to VFR flight would be a mulched gear in the accessory drive.

A quick peak at the shear section of the vac pump while moving the prop would confirm.
That's a little beyond what one might expect of a Student Pilot during preflight. That's the sort of thing you get an A&P to check before flight, and that's not what the OP's instructor said to do. Fie on that instructor.
 
I don't really see how a bad vacuum system or a bad AI would indicate an underlying problem if the motor runs well, passes all pre-flight checks etc...

The vacuum pump is driven by the motor but the system is designed in such a way that if the vac pump fails, its not going to take the motor with it.
There is clearly a gap in your knowledge base. See Duncan's post above about the gear and gear box.

I did 360nm last weekend in an airplane with no vacuum or electrical system. it was fine :wink2:
Big difference between a malfunctioning system and a nonexistent system.
 
Odds are very, very, VERY slim that there would be anything wrong worse than a bad gyro, busted hose or a broken shear drive on the pump (external to the engine, no danger of engine damage, that's why it's there) but if the gear has gone out to lunch the magneto drive gears likely won't be far behind.
 
That's a little beyond what one might expect of a Student Pilot during preflight. That's the sort of thing you get an A&P to check before flight, and that's not what the OP's instructor said to do. Fie on that instructor.

Agreed, easy to do, but you have to know what you are looking for.
 
I'm not a CFI, but I had about 20 hours before I ever flew a plane with either an AI or an electric starter. I'm eternally grateful to my first CFI for giving me that kind of initial experience.
 
Why not? I was a new private pilot and flew from Z98 to GLR with an inoFo AI. Follow 131 until you can see Houghton Lake to the NE, fly towards that, follow 127/75 to GLR. So easy a caveman could do it. VFR you are looking OUTSIDE. Check heading, check altitude. AI is more or less useless on a good VMC day.

Bob isn't a student pilot.

Oops, I thought he was. I was speaking more towards student pilots flying on my endorsement.
 
Odds are very, very, VERY slim that there would be anything wrong worse than a bad gyro, busted hose or a broken shear drive on the pump (external to the engine, no danger of engine damage, that's why it's there) but if the gear has gone out to lunch the magneto drive gears likely won't be far behind.

Right. If this is one of your school planes showing no symptoms other than a dead AI and possible loss of vacuum are you going to inspect the accessory drive gear before placarding it and releasing for VFR only flight?

When I was training I guess I just got used to dead DG's AI's and vacuum pumps as a routine thing.
 
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There is clearly a gap in your knowledge base. See Duncan's post above about the gear and gear box.

Big difference between a malfunctioning system and a nonexistent system.

If the pump (seizes) the shear section is designed to fail so that the engine accessory drive is spared. I still cant come up with a way for the vacuum pump to fail and take the engine with it.

I do understand that the loss of vac could be a bad accessory drive but as duncan pointed out, the odds of that are next to nil. Particurlarly so if everything is running fine and no weird noises or vibration.
 
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If the pump (seizes) the shear section is designed to fail so that the engine accessory drive is spared. I still cant come up with a way for the vacuum pump to fail and take the engine with it.
Maybe you watch someone like Duncan remove and replace a pump. Then you'd know how it can happen. It's not common, but the gear itself can fail and dump bits into the gearbox.
 
Maybe you watch someone like Duncan remove and replace a pump. Then you'd know how it can happen. It's not common, but the gear itself can fail and dump bits into the gearbox.

So if your pump fails do you hang up the keys until someone can remove it and inspect the accessory drive?

I have seen a vacuum pump replaced. Yes It could be possible for it to grenade and throw bits down in the gears with no noise or symptoms, only to have the whole thing fail at 400agl on takeoff, and then you crash into a school bus and kill the kid who was going to grow up and cure cancer
 
So if your pump fails do you hang up the keys until someone can remove it and inspect the accessory drive?
That's a pretty good idea, although Duncan's post suggests that removal isn't necessary, just inspection (I don't know for sure myself). I sure wouldn't fly it myself without knowing more (short of the Indiana Jones scenario).
 
I do understand that the loss of vac could be a bad accessory drive but as duncan pointed out, the odds of that are next to nil.
I thoroughly preflight before every flight. The odds of me finding anything that'll ground the aircraft are next to nil. In fact, in 1,500 hours of flying, it's never happened.*

But I still thoroughly preflight before every flight.

Not to do so would be careless.

To say that it's okay to fly with an undiagnosed failure is not my way of thinking regardless of the odds...except in an emergency.

Same goes for flying without an adequate preflight.

The NTSB reports are filled with stories of pilots who thought the odds wouldn't catch up with them.

So if your pump fails do you hang up the keys until someone can remove it and inspect the accessory drive?
Yes.

I have seen a vacuum pump replaced.
And when it's replaced the condition of the teeth might just be inspected.

*But, i've always owned my planes and properly (and proactively) maintain them. I've never flown a rental.
 
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CFI and Student Pilot Cause Shut Down at SJC

:eek: This all reminds me of my CFI when I was 17. On my first cross country, the cable linkage between the throttle and the engine went funky (C172)...couldn't idle the engine. No matter what I did, the plane wouldn't land. So I did a final and shut my engine off completely over the runway.

I called my CFI from Tracy Airport. He encouraged me to fly home, which...being young and naïve, I did.

When the tower at PAO found out the CFI had instructed a student on first solo to fly home with a known throttle linkage issue, they refused to let me land on the short runway, and directed me to San Jose International. SJC stopped all traffic while I once again shut off my engine and stopped on the loonnnggg and wiiiddde runway (not my best landing...first time on a really wide runway, and misjudged my height due to the optical illusion). I was surrounded by fire engines.

My lesson learned: you have to trust your gut and as PIC it's YOUR decision. My CFI made a terrible mistake, and I was too trusting to disobey his request. What if the fraying cable had simply broken off the rest of the way?

Fast forward 40 years later...I made a decision this week documented in this thread not to fly with a known vacuum issue. For me, this was the right decision, and I'd do it again in an instant.

Thanks, all for the great insights in this post!!!!!!!!!:D I respect those who would have flown anyway, and I trust you respect my decision as well.
 
Right. If this is one of your school planes showing no symptoms other than a dead AI and possible loss of vacuum are you going to inspect the accessory drive gear before placarding it and releasing for VFR only flight?

When I was training I guess I just got used to dead DG's AI's and vacuum pumps as a routine thing.

I can tell what is going on inside the accessory case from outside.

I'm going to pop the cowl and have a look at the shear section of the pump if it is a no vac situation, if it isn't turning when I wiggle the prop the we know there is something broken in the engine.

I've never seen it happen, never heard of it happening, but the check is so easy to do and the penalty so high if I miss a broken gear that I do it.
 
If the pump (seizes) the shear section is designed to fail so that the engine accessory drive is spared. I still cant come up with a way for the vacuum pump to fail and take the engine with it.

I do understand that the loss of vac could be a bad accessory drive but as duncan pointed out, the odds of that are next to nil. Particurlarly so if everything is running fine and no weird noises or vibration.

In theory it can't take out the engine, and that is not what I'd be looking for, I'd be looking for a bad engine having taken out the vacuum system.
 
The AI broke on the rental I was training on about a month before my checkride. It took the shop forever to get it fixed. I ended up taking the checkride without it. The examiner was impressed with my steep turns :).
 
For what it's worth, I took off on a day VFR flight and my attitude indicator failed about fifteen minutes in to the flight. Then I realized my vacuum pump failed. I really had no issue with the loss of the vacuum equipment, but I didn't know the mode of failure. I knew my engine (TSIO 360) had a solid shaft coupling geared to the engine to drive the pump. For all I knew there could be a gaping hole where the shaft was with oil spewing out, so I opted to return. Fortunately that wasn't the case, but....
 
Re: CFI and Student Pilot Cause Shut Down at SJC

:eek: This all reminds me of my CFI when I was 17. On my first cross country, the cable linkage between the throttle and the engine went funky (C172)...couldn't idle the engine. No matter what I did, the plane wouldn't land. So I did a final and shut my engine off completely over the runway.

I called my CFI from Tracy Airport. He encouraged me to fly home, which...being young and naïve, I did.

When the tower at PAO found out the CFI had instructed a student on first solo to fly home with a known throttle linkage issue, they refused to let me land on the short runway, and directed me to San Jose International. SJC stopped all traffic while I once again shut off my engine and stopped on the loonnnggg and wiiiddde runway (not my best landing...first time on a really wide runway, and misjudged my height due to the optical illusion). I was surrounded by fire engines.

My lesson learned: you have to trust your gut and as PIC it's YOUR decision. My CFI made a terrible mistake, and I was too trusting to disobey his request. What if the fraying cable had simply broken off the rest of the way?

Fast forward 40 years later...I made a decision this week documented in this thread not to fly with a known vacuum issue. For me, this was the right decision, and I'd do it again in an instant.

Thanks, all for the great insights in this post!!!!!!!!!:D I respect those who would have flown anyway, and I trust you respect my decision as well.

WOW:yikes:.
 
"Hey Boss, sorry to bother you at home, but we're not going to be able to make the Aibilene pick-up tonight, the plane is broke."

"Really, what's wrong? Did a cylinder blow? If so, there's a spare in the parts room and Charlie can change it out in about an hour."

"Uh, no, it's worse than that, the attitude instrument doesn't appear to be working."

"Is the weather down in ABI, or forecast going south?"

"Nope, all of TX is VFR for a couple days."

"Any other instruments broke? Vac pump broke too?

"No, everything else appears to be working fine."

"Say again why you're not going?"
 
The vac pump was out in the C150 I taught my son in, which I intentionally left flagged inop until he was near solo. That eliminated any tendency to fixate on things in the plane during those first presolo hours. We fixed it prior to solo xc since I like them to have some of the basic attitude instrument training before going xc.
 
I'm happy to report that my FBO agreed the AI should be fixed immediately. They did so, and the plane is back in the air.
 
Thanks for the comments. :yes: This site rocks.

My concern was not just about this gauge, but that one gauge with a vacuum issue could be a symptom of a larger issue...which I'm not qualified to diagnose.

And no, it was not marked INOP. And no, I wasn't going on a trip, so no flight plan. And no, there was no mechanic available.

I use "GOOSE-A-CAT" for MEL items even if there isn't an MEL (FLAMING TOMATOES is one as well).

Had the air speed indicator fail while returning on a solo XC. I guess it'd be cool to type in some harrowing account of my landing. My CFI covered the ASI so many times in the pattern (RPM settings) that it was an obvious non-issue .... well except for the next student as the plane got pulled for repair as soon as I squawked it.
 
Re: CFI and Student Pilot Cause Shut Down at SJC

:eek: This all reminds me of my CFI when I was 17. On my first cross country, the cable linkage between the throttle and the engine went funky (C172)...couldn't idle the engine. No matter what I did, the plane wouldn't land. So I did a final and shut my engine off completely over the runway.

I called my CFI from Tracy Airport. He encouraged me to fly home, which...being young and naïve, I did.

When the tower at PAO found out the CFI had instructed a student on first solo to fly home with a known throttle linkage issue, they refused to let me land on the short runway, and directed me to San Jose International. SJC stopped all traffic while I once again shut off my engine and stopped on the loonnnggg and wiiiddde runway (not my best landing...first time on a really wide runway, and misjudged my height due to the optical illusion). I was surrounded by fire engines.

My lesson learned: you have to trust your gut and as PIC it's YOUR decision. My CFI made a terrible mistake, and I was too trusting to disobey his request. What if the fraying cable had simply broken off the rest of the way?

Fast forward 40 years later...I made a decision this week documented in this thread not to fly with a known vacuum issue. For me, this was the right decision, and I'd do it again in an instant.

Thanks, all for the great insights in this post!!!!!!!!!:D I respect those who would have flown anyway, and I trust you respect my decision as well.

KPAO ?

Another local pilot ?
 
Yes...but a long time ago! Rode my bike there and to SJC every weekend as a kid. Passed private there at 17. Now living in So. Cal.
 
Yes...but a long time ago! Rode my bike there and to SJC every weekend as a kid. Passed private there at 17. Now living in So. Cal.

Darn. Our Bay Area group is still kind of small, but growing. Hello from a fellow CA pilot. You've got some tricky airspace down there.
 
You got that right, Kimberly. Makes me yearn for the days when I could request clearance to takeoff (with no readback of runway), head out over Coyote Hills, and jump carefree all over the Bay Area talking to almost no one.

Now I have to get clearance from someone in LA just to turn 5 degrees and spend more time talking to ATC than on flying.

Not protesting, because it needs to be this way. Just makes me recall a different time.
 
You got that right, Kimberly. Makes me yearn for the days when I could request clearance to takeoff (with no readback of runway), head out over Coyote Hills, and jump carefree all over the Bay Area talking to almost no one.

Now I have to get clearance from someone in LA just to turn 5 degrees and spend more time talking to ATC than on flying.

Not protesting, because it needs to be this way. Just makes me recall a different time.

I can talk to nobody (except for CTAF) and often do - when we fly up the coast they kick us off anyway (ATC does) due to the mountains.

So the kind of flying you miss does still exist. And with moving maps it is possible to fly all over the Bay Area without talking to ATC but I normally do say hello for safety reasons.
 
Yes, but you can cross KLAX without talking to anyone. We can't do that at KSFO (not that Class B clearance is all that hard here).
 
You got that right, Kimberly. Makes me yearn for the days when I could request clearance to takeoff (with no readback of runway), head out over Coyote Hills, and jump carefree all over the Bay Area talking to almost no one.

Now I have to get clearance from someone in LA just to turn 5 degrees and spend more time talking to ATC than on flying.

Not protesting, because it needs to be this way. Just makes me recall a different time.

not out where we are Bob. . . maybe over the valley with BUR and VNY but I've taken off from POC - climbed to 6500 and not talked to anyone til I was at 3000 in the descent for Santa Barbara. . . not my preferred way but SoCal was swamped that day and it was just easier. I prefer flying over SoCal IFR on days when the marine is there - its so much less busy and the only people flying are pros and people who fly like them.
 
When I fly GA I don't even look at the attitude indicator in VMC, although on some glass systems it is more useful. In IMC I don't trust it and make an effort to keep a good scan going.

If it were unquestionable VMC, yes.
 
Conservative pilots tend to live to see another day, there's nothing wrong saying "just because its legal doesn't mean it should be flown"

If I were your CFI, I would probably offer you additional training so that if this were to happen in flight (in VMC) it would be a non-event but I would see you as cautious, not wrong.

BTW this happened to me when I was getting my PPL and I put my foot down too. No reason to send just post-solo students out with anything less than a 100% functional airframe. It adds to the workload if something they're used to seeing isn't available even if its not needed.
 
Is it possible that whatever broke the attitude indicator could be a symptom of something else, like:

* A belt or other piece came lose and could damage the engine?
* An electrical issue?
* Something else I don't know?

Is it possible someone might accidentally fly into IFR and need an attitude indicator?

Do unpredicted IFR conditions sometimes materialize out of nowhere?

Yes, of course! Those who think this is ONLY about needing an attitude indicator miss the point. I don't use it either.

But I am not qualified to diagnose why an attitude indicator failed. If you are, more power to ya'. If not, well, my recommendation: Consider not flying.

Also, do the research (which I have now done)...there are known cases of vacuum issues starting in one place, spreading to other systems, and causing BIG problems.
 
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