CFIs vs Maintenance

[FastEddieB]

This from Continental:

“The Continental engine cylinder has a special two step hone process used in cylinder manufacturing. After honing, the internal bore of the cylinder barrel is left with a minute cross hatch pattern of “scratches.” The cross hatch treatment of the cylinder walls provides valleys for oil retention and better lubrication of the cylinder, but also plays an important role in proper break-in of piston rings to cylinder walls. Your engine was operated on a factory test cell before leaving the Continental Motors factory. However, complete ring seating has not occurred and must be accomplished during the first 25 hours of engine operation after installation.”

From Continental’s “Tips on Engine Care”, easy to find as a pdf online.

I’m sure different engines and installations have different break-in requirements. I recall in the Cirrus world the recommendation was to get the mineral oil out after 25 hours, or until oil consumption had stabilized. That often occurred well short of 25 hours.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ownership lessons can be spensive....got's no one to blame but the owner.

Now, he needs to get a new mechanic and new CFI too.

 

[Tom-D]

My thoughts too. It shouldn’t take more than 15 hours for the rings to properly seat themselves.

We don't know what the problem is, we won't know until the engine is torn down.
Normally the superior cylinders will seat the rings prior to traffic pattern altitude. If run on a test cell as per the Overhaul manual they will be seated prior to delivery.
Like I've said I have not seen this engine torn down.

 

[TommyG]

I assume that the 50 hours on the engine were the hours put on while the owner was learning. You can say that the CFI is responsible, but unless the CFI was out there by himself doing whatever he wanted. The owner from what I read is the responsible party.

 

[Tom-D]

Involved how? Repairing the engine?

As I set here this morning, that will not happen. My last two engines are awaiting delivery/payment.
Then ol Tommy is going fishing, it is spring.

 

[Tom-D]

I assume that the 50 hours on the engine were the hours put on while the owner was learning. You can say that the CFI is responsible, but unless the CFI was out there by himself doing whatever he wanted. The owner from what I read is the responsible party.

When the owner (kid) knows nothing about aviation, and the CFI is teaching slow flight at high power settings when they were told not to.???

 

[Tom-D]

This from Continental:

“The Continental engine cylinder has a special two step hone process used in cylinder manufacturing. After honing, the internal bore of the cylinder barrel is left with a minute cross hatch pattern of “scratches.” The cross hatch treatment of the cylinder walls provides valleys for oil retention and better lubrication of the cylinder, but also plays an important role in proper break-in of piston rings to cylinder walls. Your engine was operated on a factory test cell before leaving the Continental Motors factory. However, complete ring seating has not occurred and must be accomplished during the first 25 hours of engine operation after installation.”

From Continental’s “Tips on Engine Care”, easy to find as a pdf online.

I’m sure different engines and installations have different break-in requirements. I recall in the Cirrus world the recommendation was to get the mineral oil out after 25 hours, or until oil consumption had stabilized. That often occurred well short of 25 hours.

You are aware that these are Superior cylinders?

 

[Tom-D]

Ownership lessons can be spensive....got's no one to blame but the owner.

Now, he needs to get a new mechanic and new CFI too.

nice thought, but I don't believe this guy can afford to take a ****

 

[TommyG]

It’s the kids responsibility to know what the procedure is. He bought the the plane. I know if I want to know what is wrong with my plane I ask a mechanic not a CFI. Just like my car, I ask a mechanic what is wrong, not the cashier.

 

[JAWS]

My main concern in this thread is, How much Liability does the CFI have in making this right.

Mr cfi should know when and who to ask for more information before

Next question..

If you were a A&P-IA would you get involved?
I've already given my opinion, and that was all the owner asked for.

Sure, if you need the work.

 

[Brad Smith]

The CFI curriculum does not include "How to properly break-in an aircraft piston engine." The responsibility is 100% on the owner. If you are able to purchase a 172 with a "0" time engine you should be bright enough to read and understand the manufacturer's instructions and then follow them. Engines ain't cheap!

 

[James331]

When the owner (kid) knows nothing about aviation, and the CFI is teaching slow flight at high power settings when they were told not to.???

For one slow flight isn’t a hour long thing, I doubt they were going up for days at a time and doing slow flight. That said PPL training is a ton of takeoff and landings, simulated engine failures, etc etc.

And you’re saying this shop that built the engine is great, BUT they don’t give any break in instructions to folks who spend all that money with them? Because you don’t need to be a super experienced guy to understand spend XYZ hours and XYZ power settings and avoid this and that.

And again, it could be a issue on the part of the shop too, personally I’d stay out of it if I were you, seems like something he needs to deal directly with the shop about, and trying to team up against the CFI who had nothing to do with it, wouldn’t hitch my wagon to that.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

nice thought, but I don't believe this guy can afford to take a ****

so maybe he's learned an spensive lesson....and there will be more to come.

by the time you're done with him he'll need another $2-3K.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Seems to me that establishing liability is a waste of time...the CFI can't afford the repairs, and since he's demonstrated his inability/unwillingness to teach the owner how to properly operate his airplane, so even at "free", he's not worth it.

 

[FastEddieB]

You are aware that these are Superior cylinders?

Are they fundamentally different?

 

[Witmo]

You hire an flying instructor to instruct flying not maintenance procedures. Unless you have a written contract with the instructor requiring him to fly your aircraft a certain way to break it in, good luck requiring the instructor to pay for any maintenance resulting from failure to follow break-in procedures. The owner owns this one. Chalk it up to owner education. I would think it's probably only going to require rehoning the cylinders and a proper break-in but if it's anything else it's not likely to be the fault of the instructor.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I doubt Tom has a glass hone for those new Nickels......they ain't the same.

 

[Tom-D]

BUT they don’t give any break in instructions to folks who spend all that money with them?

They did give instructions. that were not followed.

 

[Tom-D]

I doubt Tom has a glass hone for those new Nickels......they ain't the same.

Superior? Nickels ? Didn't know new Superior's were nickel

 

[Tom-D]

You hire an flying instructor to instruct flying not maintenance procedures. Unless you have a written contract with the instructor requiring him to fly your aircraft a certain way to break it in, good luck requiring the instructor to pay for any maintenance resulting from failure to follow break-in procedures. The owner owns this one. Chalk it up to owner education. I would think it's probably only going to require rehoning the cylinders and a proper break-in but if it's anything else it's not likely to be the fault of the instructor.

That's Probably the reality of it.

 

[Tom-D]

Are they fundamentally different?

They look the same, but who knows ?

 

[Tom-D]

so maybe he's learned an spensive lesson....and there will be more to come.

by the time you're done with him he'll need another $2-3K.

If in fact IF-IF he needs new cylinders, think $940 each, plus labor.

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks for the opinions. We will see what transpires over the next few weeks.

 

[James331]

They did give instructions. that were not followed.

So this guy is able to amass enough money to not only buy a plane, but overhaul a engine right out of the gate, but he is unable to read or write?

I knew our economy and job market was doing great, but I didn’t know it was that good!

 

[jesse]

lol. The shop did a **** overhaul plain and simple. O-300, O-320, etc have been flying in training aircraft without 50 hour breakins on every engine any flight school has ever bought.

I have done flight training after top overhauls - and we certainly don’t not train for fifty hours. **** that’s more hours then the private certificate itself.

A good climb with lots of airflow, a cross country, vary the RPM some, and then we are in normal operations. Never broke an engine.

This engine was broke before the CFI got involved and you’re giving the owner terrible advice to pursue a cfi that won’t/likely can’t pay while risking losing his warranty.

The shop can’t prove how it was operated. It’s a 0-300 for christ sakes - this guys best chance is to be battling the shop that ****ed up his overhaul. If he told the shop his cfi was running it contrary to break in instructions then, well, the guy isn’t bright enough to own an airplane.

Considering how you have no idea how the CFI operated it (you’ve admited to that) why are you jumping to burning the cfi? That is in the worst interests of this student that’s doesn’t know better and is the least likely path to giving him resolution.

 

[nrpetersen]

Sounds almost like our 172M after couple of subsequent owners. Had to be ferried by his flight instructor after routine annual. Instructor noted no oil pressure but not until after taxiing for takeoff. IA never put any oil in!

 

[Tom-D]

So this guy is able to amass enough money to not only buy a plane, but overhaul a engine right out of the gate,

You assumed he did it. -- No

 

[Tom-D]

lol. The shop did a **** overhaul plain and simple. O-300, O-320, etc have been flying in training aircraft without 50 hour breakins on every engine any flight school has ever bought.

I have done flight training after top overhauls - and we certainly don’t not train for fifty hours. **** that’s more hours then the private certificate itself.

A good climb with lots of airflow, a cross country, vary the RPM some, and then we are in normal operations. Never broke an engine.

This engine was broke before the CFI got involved and you’re giving the owner terrible advice to pursue a cfi that won’t/likely can’t pay while risking losing his warranty.

The shop can’t prove how it was operated. It’s a 0-300 for christ sakes - this guys best chance is to be battling the shop that ****ed up his overhaul. If he told the shop his cfi was running it contrary to break in instructions then, well, the guy isn’t bright enough to own an airplane.

Considering how you have no idea how the CFI operated it (you’ve admited to that) why are you jumping to burning the cfi? That is in the worst interests of this student that’s doesn’t know better and is the least likely path to giving him resolution.

You assume that all 52 hours were in training. WE don't know that for sure.

 

[James331]

You assumed he did it. -- No

Ether way this is all for not, if he illiterate I can’t see how he’s going to pull off getting his PPL.

But I’m still leaning with a issue with the rebuild myself.

So, dude didn’t/can’t read basic instruction that he got with the rebuild, or the shop screwed up, or maybe a little of both.

This is between the owner of the plane and the shop, they need to talk and see where the screw up came from, might also be both are a little at fault. Ether way it has nothing to do with you Tom and it has nothing to do with Mr. CFI.

 

[Tom-D]

[QUOTE="James331, post: 2696700, member: 18843" Ether way it has nothing to do with you Tom [/QUOTE]
yer right about that.

I'm very hesitant about getting involved any farther, It could develop into a Pizzing Contest. who needs it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Do manufacturers/remanufacturers every break in engines at the factory? Like on a rack or something?

Poplar Grove, and presumably others, runs the engine for a few hours to start, but that's not really enough to get it fully broken in.

Poplar Grove *will* fully break in an engine upon request.

The owner should have paid to have the engine broken in properly. If he was being cheap and trying to make revenue during the break in period, he kind of created the problem. On the other hand, what kind of pilot, after being told how to operate the aircraft, just blows it off and abuses it?

I expect to see more of this kind of thing going on. Due to our litigious society, there are warnings upon warnings all over everything because someone's trying to limit liability, and after a while people start ignoring warnings because they're meaningless in many cases.

Now, you have a very serious warning, and it just gets ignored like the rest.

Kid should have hired a pilot to fly off the 50 hours. AND.................That seems to be a HUGE LOT of hours to break in a cylinder. Should easily happen in less than 10.

Yeah, but that's only if you do it right, and even then it might not happen perfectly every time.

 

[nrpetersen]

On an O-300D are the rods drilled & installed in a certain orientation?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ether way it has nothing to do with you Tom
yer right about that.

I'm very hesitant about getting involved any farther, It could develop into a Pizzing Contest. who needs it.

come on Tom....you're a regular at that.

 

[Tom-D]

On an O-300D are the rods drilled & installed in a certain orientation?

At overhaul the rods have a new bushing installed in the wrist pin hole, then about half a thousand milled off each side of the crank pin hole, then rehoned to proper size.
each rod is numbered and that number stamped at the large end of the rod. they are assembled on the crank with that number up 1 thru 6

 

[Tom-D]

More info:
the previous owner talked to me today, he says the new owner received the aircraft with about 35 hours Since major and it was running perfectly.
He bought the 172 cheap, had the engine overhauled because it had been in storage too long. He flew it some, his wife flew it some, thus the 35 hours.He added that it had not burned a qt of oil in the 25, hour oil change, and was full when he passed it off to the new owner.

 

[Tom-D]

yer right about that.

I'm very hesitant about getting involved any farther, It could develop into a Pizzing Contest. who needs it.

come on Tom....you're a regular at that. [/QUOTE]
Maybe here on the web.. but this close to home?? an opinion could get your aZZ kicked.

No Thanks..

 

[Doug Reid]

Tom, look in the cylinders an tell us what you see. 20/80 compressions....are all the cylinders leaking past the rings back into the case ? Tell us more..

 

[PaulS]

More info:
the previous owner talked to me today, he says the new owner received the aircraft with about 35 hours Since major and it was running perfectly.
He bought the 172 cheap, had the engine overhauled because it had been in storage too long. He flew it some, his wife flew it some, thus the 35 hours.He added that it had not burned a qt of oil in the 25, hour oil change, and was full when he passed it off to the new owner.

Obvious question, how long ago was the overhaul done?

 

[Dave Theisen]

More info:
the previous owner talked to me today, he says the new owner received the aircraft with about 35 hours Since major and it was running perfectly.
He bought the 172 cheap, had the engine overhauled because it had been in storage too long. He flew it some, his wife flew it some, thus the 35 hours.He added that it had not burned a qt of oil in the 25, hour oil change, and was full when he passed it off to the new owner.

So the CFI had nothing to do with the break in.

 

[Timbeck2]

Sounds almost like our 172M after couple of subsequent owners. Had to be ferried by his flight instructor after routine annual. Instructor noted no oil pressure but not until after taxiing for takeoff. IA never put any oil in!

So this flight instructor didn't do a pre-flight?