CFIs do you use an app or paper for log?

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SinkorSwim

Pre-takeoff checklist
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HFC1969
I am a new CFI and do not have any students. I don't really plan on having many students, mainly my 13yo son. :yes:

Thinking about switching over to an app. What is the best electronic one to use as a CFI?
 
No app meets all the legal requirements for records which a CFI must keep, including the TSA requirements.
 
I use Logten Pro on the iPad and sync to logten pro on the Mac . My paper is about 1.5 years behind right now.
 
Ron Levy said:
No app meets all the legal requirements for records which a CFI must keep, including the TSA requirements.
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Actually I can meet all of the requirements with logten pro.
 
I use logten pro and try to keep up with paper :)
 
jesse said:
Actually I can meet all of the requirements with logten pro.
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Really? Including the signed 49 CFR 1552.3(h) citizenship certification? Or are you separately keeping copies of their passport/birth certificate and protecting those data IAW the Privacy Act?
 
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Ron Levy said:
Really? Including the signed 49 CFR 1552.3(h) citizenship certification?
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That's the remaining question that's been in my mind.

Under both federal and multiple-state law, a "signature" is whatever the signer intends and an electronic signature is as valid as a pen-and-paper one. My hesitation has always been that federal agencies are entitled to set guidelines. The FAA hasn't (I haven't looked for TSA), so there is at least some risk involved in going fully electronic. Whether the regulatory risk is tolerable is an individual decision.
 
6/30/2000 @ 4:45PM
Clinton Signs Digital Signature Act
“Sign here” has just been replaced with “click here.”

Bowing to the inexorable onrush of e-commerce, the federal government today gave its blessing to digital signatures, pronouncing them legal for contracts, transactions and records that until now could be completed only on paper.

President Clinton used a smart card encrypted with his digital signature to “e-sign” the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act into law.

If this becomes a trend, the White House won’t have to order any more commemorative pens for signing ceremonies.

“Under this landmark legislation, online contracts will have the same legal force as equivalent paper contracts,” says Clinton, who endorsed the E-Sign act.

The new law opens a whole new world of e-commerce. Internet users will be able to buy a car, get life insurance or take out a mortgage without the need to sign and mail paper documents. Likewise, corporations will have the ability to entirely computerize the process of signing contracts to buy and sell products and services.
 
As a student pilot flying solo, they need to carry a logbook with endorsements.
One of our older club members presented an electronic log book app that the instructor electronically endorsed for a flight review. I'll check to see what that program app he used.
 
BillTIZ said:
As a student pilot flying solo, they need to carry a logbook with endorsements.
One of our older club members presented an electronic log book app that the instructor electronically endorsed for a flight review. I'll check to see what that program app he used.
Click to expand...
There's a couple of them out there.
 
Ron Levy said:
Really? Including the signed 49 CFR 1552.3(h) citizenship certification? Or are you separately keeping copies of their passport/birth certificate and protecting those data IAW the Privacy Act?
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Yes. Sign paper, scan it. I am also not required to maintain copies of their passport or birth certificate.

During my last TSA audit printed digital copies of the signed citizenship verification were presented and accepted.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's the remaining question that's been in my mind.

Under both federal and multiple-state law, a "signature" is whatever the signer intends and an electronic signature is as valid as a pen-and-paper one. My hesitation has always been that federal agencies are entitled to set guidelines. The FAA hasn't
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They have. See AC 120-78. And I have an email from LogTen saying they have not sought approval under that AC.
 
jesse said:
Yes. Sign paper, scan it. I am also not required to maintain copies of their passport or birth certificate.
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You need either that (per 1552.3), or the signed certification in your logbook that you checked them (per the TSA Chief Counsel's AMOC)

During my last TSA audit printed digital copies of the signed citizenship verification were presented and accepted.
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I was not aware that LogTen allows for digital copies of signed documents.
 
LogTen Pro, for sure. :yes: Without a doubt. And as you noticed, there are a few versions available.

LogTen Pro Universal is the version that runs on all iOS devices (so the single app purchase will allow you to run on iPad and iPhone both). It's $79.99. An iPad-only version is $59.99 and an iPhone-only version is $39.99.

LogTen Pro for Mac runs (you guessed it) on a Mac computer. It's $99.99.

If you have both a Mac and the iOS device(s), you can sync data across them all which is quite nice. iCloud support is also available.

The apps also allow digital signatures (sign name with finger), photo record keeping etc. My CFI's have all signed my LogTen logbook on my iPad and I have digital copies of all the paper records (endorsements, medical card, aircraft registration and airwortiness, etc.) in LogTen as well, photographed/scanned with the camera on the iPad/iPhone. Of course, some of those I also carry as physical paper (registration, airworthiness, medical).

Other bonuses include integration with ForeFlight on the iOS device (send the flight plan to LogTen Pro to record it there rather than manually typing it in) and for people with substantial paper log books to convert, a partnership with convertmylogbook.com so you don't have to do it yourself if you don't want to.

Reporting and log book page printing in a variety of forms is great. And the app is geared for everyone from student to instructor to ATP.

Coradine Aviation makes the software. Great customer service and some terrific people there.

Info specific to flight instructors use of LogTen Pro is here. And there's a form there that CFI's can use to enter to try to win one of the two free copies of LogTen Pro Universal they give away each month.

Oh, and I also wanted to be sure to mention: Teaching your 13 year old son to fly... Priceless. And truly awesome!
 
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Ron Levy said:
They have. See AC 120-78. And I have an email from LogTen saying they have not sought approval under that AC.
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I'm familiar with it. Not particularly helpful for pilot training records. And, of course, it's "an acceptable means, but not the only means, of complying with the FAA’s operational and maintenance requirements."
 
Thanks for the great review and thanks about the kind words about my son. :)

I would like to find maybe 1 or 2 students, just to make sure I stay fresh.
 
SinkorSwim said:
Thanks for the great review and thanks about the kind words about my son. :)

I would like to find maybe 1 or 2 students, just to make sure I stay fresh.
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I taught my son to fly. It was always a dream of mine to do so, and I will forever cherish having had the opportunity.

(But don't fret if you find you may not get the respect you receive from other students! :yikes:)
 
Ron Levy said:
You need either that (per 1552.3), or the signed certification in your logbook that you checked them (per the TSA Chief Counsel's AMOC)

I was not aware that LogTen allows for digital copies of signed documents.
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And what stops me from writing those records in a paper logbook later, since I write the entire thing, and sign it myself?

Ron Levy said:
I was not aware that LogTen allows for digital copies of signed documents.
Click to expand...
You can take a picture and attach it to an endorsement. Those printed endorsements resulted in no questions asked. I also rewrite them into a paper logbook in time.
 
Can someone put on their salesman hat and explain what's wrong with using a paper log? I'm a bit of a luddite and the paper log seems to work fine. I probably just don't know any better. :)
 
noobJohn said:
Can someone put on their salesman hat and explain what's wrong with using a paper log? I'm a bit of a luddite and the paper log seems to work fine. I probably just don't know any better. :)
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John, no salesman hat required...and there is certainly nothing wrong with the paper log! I spent countless hours on many layovers about 8 years ago transferring all my flight time (line by line going back to 1985) from paper to digital and I have never regretted doing so. One of the many reasons I like digital is that I feel safer having the data backed up than I do with paper! But in the end you have to do what is right for you. Just like going all digital with an EFB vs paper charts...some folks prefer to stay with paper.
 
noobJohn said:
Can someone put on their salesman hat and explain what's wrong with using a paper log? I'm a bit of a luddite and the paper log seems to work fine. I probably just don't know any better. :)
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Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get my paper log to compute all my 8710 hours! That was my primary motivation for electronic. Also, I'm often asked for my flight times, total, last 30, 60, 90 etc. for various insurance purposes (I'm on several clients' insurance and it comes up every time they renew), and I can answer their questions on the spot accurate up to my just-ended flight via my Android phone or iPad.

I use LogbookPro with their Cloud Sync and enter my time right after the flight. When I get home it's already sitting on the screen in my desktop computer logbook, from which I update my paper log. I do keep the paper for endorsements and posterity.
 
noobJohn said:
Can someone put on their salesman hat and explain what's wrong with using a paper log? I'm a bit of a luddite and the paper log seems to work fine. I probably just don't know any better. :)
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Nothing wrong with paper logs, bookkeeping records or anything else that involves data that you may want to locate or query or report in certain ways. People have been doing it for centuries.
 
Ok... Being able to quickly compute total time in various categories would be an advantage for electronic.

Being I have less than 1/100th your total time, it hasn't been much of an issue for me YET. :D

LDJones said:
Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get my paper log to compute all my 8710 hours! That was my primary motivation for electronic. Also, I'm often asked for my flight times, total, last 30, 60, 90 etc. for various insurance purposes
Click to expand...
 
noobJohn said:
Ok... Being able to quickly compute total time in various categories would be an advantage for electronic.

Being I have less than 1/100th your total time, it hasn't been much of an issue for me YET. :D
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, Form 8710 is the FAA application for airman's certificate or rating. It's now done electronically via IACRA but you still need the times, which don't always correspond to what you might have in your logbook columns. But my digital logbook goes behind the scenes, computes the needed data and presents in the exact format of the 8710 making the process a piece of cake. I only have 3464.6 hrs (5771 landings) as of last night.
 
Oops. Show's my inexperience... I just thought of that as IACRA, not a form number.

I figured you had 8710 hours. :D

LDJones said:
Just to be clear, Form 8710 is the FAA application for airman's certificate or rating. It's now done electronically via IACRA but you still need the times, which don't always correspond to what you might have in your logbook columns. But my digital logbook goes behind the scenes, computes the needed data and presents in the exact format of the 8710 making the process a piece of cake. I only have 3464.6 hrs (5771 landings) as of last night.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
They have. See AC 120-78.
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Speaking of which, here is a draft of a proposed revision to that AC.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/media/afs/AC_120_78A_Coord_Copy.pdf

I have not gone through it completely but it does seem to clean up some of the issues.

And I have an email from LogTen saying they have not sought approval under that AC.
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That's not surprising. The AC always seemed to be designed for operations like airlines, mechanic shops, perhaps Part 141 flight schools. It required that, in order to take advantage of the AC you had to meet all of its detailed conditions; hardly the stuff of a simple pilot logbook. The draft revision appears to attempt to address the issue with language like:

==============================
NOTE: Part 91 operators are not required to obtain FAA acceptance prior to maintaining records electronically, however, part 91 operators may obtain FAA acceptance to maintain records electronically.
==============================

If anyone is interested in comparing the old and the proposed "new", I've attached a redline comparing the existing AC with the draft. Caomparison legend is on the last page. Have fun.
 

Attachments

  • AC 120-78 final-AC_120_78A_Coord_Copy.pdf
    210.9 KB · Views: 2
I've been using it and am very happy. It's pricey but I went with it for the following reasons:

1) Sync to all your iOS devices (works with iOS7 and Mavericks)
2) Each device acts as a backup copy (I hate manual backups)
3) Smart Limits and Groups (you can set up FAR117 limits, etc)
4) They are going to be around....worth it to me to pay a little more for that peace of mind.
5) I'm an airline pilot and like the fact that it tracks duty day for me and counts down to my limits. If I update the landing time of a future flight I can see the effect on my duty day right away.

There's a short video on it at www.airlinepilothiring.net/pilotstore.aspx
 
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