CFI vs CFII practical exam question

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

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If you are already certified as a CP-ASEL-IA, and have the proper training towards your CFI, can you take both the CFI and CFII checkrides in one ride? Or does the FAA want you to earn one, then take another ride for the instrument add-on? I read over the Flight Instructor requirements in part 61, but couldn't figure that part out.
 
Troy Whistman said:
If you are already certified as a CP-ASEL-IA, and have the proper training towards your CFI, can you take both the CFI and CFII checkrides in one ride? Or does the FAA want you to earn one, then take another ride for the instrument add-on? I read over the Flight Instructor requirements in part 61, but couldn't figure that part out.
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The ratings part should be doable but the flight must be performed in an aircraft with onboard lavatory facilities.
 
Troy Whistman said:
Ha! Because of the length of time? What more does the extra "I" add to the flight portion of the exam?
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When I added on the extra "I" we flew and I taught one each of ILS, VOR & NDB approaches, combined with the typical airwork and a hold for about 1.5 hours total. Quite easy and quick if the nav stations are close together. The initial CFI flight was a bit closer to 2 hours.

Why the proposed testing marathon?
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
When I added on the extra "I" we flew and I taught one each of ILS, VOR & NDB approaches, combined with the typical airwork and a hold for about 1.5 hours total. Quite easy and quick if the nav stations are close together. The initial CFI flight was a bit closer to 2 hours.

Why the proposed testing marathon?
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I was just curious if it was possible, or standard, to do it that way. I guess not! :)

That's okay, I bet most CFI's should have some experience doing primary training as a CFI before tackling giving the more complex CFII training.
 
I recently had one of my students do the CFII and MEI in one day. The examiner wanted two 8710's and two separate rides, first oral then first flight, and then second oral and second flight. I don't know if that is a rule or just one DPE's preference, but it keeps things alot clearer in the event of a bust and subsequent retest.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I recently had one of my students do the CFII and MEI in one day. The examiner wanted two 8710's and two separate rides, first oral then first flight, and then second oral and second flight. I don't know if that is a rule or just one DPE's preference, but it keeps things alot clearer in the event of a bust and subsequent retest.
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...and two checkride fees?! :hairraise:
 
Dave's experience is according to the regs -- one practical test at a time. However, it is, as he notes, possible to do "back to back" with a cooperative examiner. I did that on my ATP, doing both initial in the twin and add-on in the single in one long morning for one and a half fees. I suspect he bent the regs by doing a combined oral followed by two flights, but it worked for me.

All that said, given that typical initial CFI-A practical tests take all day (and occasionally a day and a half), I can't imagine trying to do both consecutively, from either the applicant's or the examiner's perspective -- too physically and mentally demanding.
 
They are technically 2 checkrides. It doesn't matter which one you do first, some do only the CFI-I. They can be done in the same day, sometimes with a discount over 2 checkride fees.

My advice: Take your time do the one you want most first, then prepare for the other.

Joe
 
The DPE gave my guy a break on the cost of the second checkride as well. But I agree with Ron, I can't imagine doing any other ride on the same day as the intitial CFI.
 
Dave Theisen said:
The DPE gave my guy a break on the cost of the second checkride as well. But I agree with Ron, I can't imagine doing any other ride on the same day as the intitial CFI.
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If there is any day left to do it:no:. My initial CFI was 7 hours long.
No way I would do the II right after(I was so tired there is no way I could have)
 
Areeda said:
They are technically 2 checkrides. It doesn't matter which one you do first, some do only the CFI-I. They can be done in the same day, sometimes with a discount over 2 checkride fees.

My advice: Take your time do the one you want most first, then prepare for the other.

Joe
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Interesting point... is CFII a superset of CFI? In other words, are you EITHER a CFI or a CFII, or are you both?

If one is not a prerequisite for the other, and if a CFII can do everything a CFI can (plus instrument rating work), then going straight to CFII for an instrument-rated commercial pilot might make more sense.
 
If you were only a CFII, you could only provide instruction towards the Instrument Rating. so no private or commercial students. Of course you could do IPCs too
 
Troy Whistman said:
Interesting point... is CFII a superset of CFI? In other words, are you EITHER a CFI or a CFII, or are you both?
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It works like this:

The Certificate says: Certified Flight Instructor. Period.
On the back of the certificate are the Ratings: They can be any or all of the following:
Airplane Single Engine
Airplane Multi Engine
Rotorcraft - Helicopter
Rotorcraft - Gyrocopter
Glider
ETC., there may be more, but you get the idea. You have to take a CFI checkride in these category and class of air machines to get the rating on your CFI certificate to teach in them.

To teach instruments in those machines, you have to take an instrument instructor checkride in the category;
Instrument - Airplane
Instrument - Helicopter
ETC.

You can start any where and get any combination that you choose.
The typical start is with ASEL because it is the least expensive way, and in my humble opinion the safest way, to get started instructing, but you can legally start anywhere, and add on anything.
 
Unlike pilot certificates, where the FAA says you have to have the basic category rating before you can get the instrument rating, the FAA allows instructors to get the instrument rating without the basic aircraft category rating. Due to a very weird reading on this subject hinging on the placement of a comma in the relevant regulation, one of the Assistant Chief Counsels told Flight Standards that CFI's with only the Instrument-Airplane rating could give instrument flight instruction even though they do not have an Airplane category rating on their CFI ticket (rather contrary to the plain reading of the regulation). Thus, a person who takes his/her initial CFI practical test with the IA rating in a C-172 can (if s/he has an ME rating on his/her pilot certificate) then go out and give instrument training towards an IR in a twin, including the required engine-out instrument approach. Doesn't make any sense, but it's official.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
When I added on the extra "I" we flew and I taught one each of ILS, VOR & NDB approaches, combined with the typical airwork and a hold for about 1.5 hours total. Quite easy and quick if the nav stations are close together. The initial CFI flight was a bit closer to 2 hours.

Why the proposed testing marathon?
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David, I'm not sure if it is a timing (i.e. how long you've been a CFI) or a regional thing (i.e. things are different out west), but ever since the FAA pulled CFI initial testing in-house and generally cracked down on initial CFIs the initial practical has become an 8 hour event. FWIW, there was no way I could have done the CFI-IA ride on the same day that my initial was done, even though the CFI-IA took all of about 1.5 hours including the oral. I started the initial CFI checkride (oral) at 8:30 AM and finished at sunset (~6 PM).
 
AFAIK, initial CFI testing has always been "in-house." It was only about 20 years or so ago that the FAA started allowing DPE's to do non-initial CFI practical tests, and only in the last 5 or 10 years that they have (in exceptional circumstances) permitted DPE's to do initial CFI tests. What has really changed in the last 10 years or so is the duration of initial CFI tests. When I did mine 34 years ago this week (with an FAA Inspector from the FSDO), it lasted about three hours, start to finish, including the paperwork. You won't see that these days.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
David, I'm not sure if it is a timing (i.e. how long you've been a CFI) or a regional thing (i.e. things are different out west), but ever since the FAA pulled CFI initial testing in-house and generally cracked down on initial CFIs the initial practical has become an 8 hour event. FWIW, there was no way I could have done the CFI-IA ride on the same day that my initial was done, even though the CFI-IA took all of about 1.5 hours including the oral. I started the initial CFI checkride (oral) at 8:30 AM and finished at sunset (~6 PM).
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You are correct, my statements above are concerning only the flight time involved for each test, and initial CFI out here with the FAA was most of the day plus some of the next day.

The II add on oral test went only 90 minutes.
 
Ron Levy said:
AFAIK, initial CFI testing has always been "in-house." It was only about 20 years or so ago that the FAA started allowing DPE's to do non-initial CFI practical tests, and only in the last 5 or 10 years that they have (in exceptional circumstances) permitted DPE's to do initial CFI tests.
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I think your memory may be a bit flawed.

Until ~10 years ago the FAA had relaxed things considerably and was allowing a large number of DPE's to conduct initial CFI tests. Then, rather abruptly in 1987 the FAA announced that ALL initial CFI tests would be conducted by the FAA. Throughout the "all in house" mandate period some FSDO's balked and continued to allow DPEs to conduct initials (Des Moines and Minneapolis FSDOs are two I know who used and continue to use DPEs), but most fell in line, canceling the initial CFI authorizations held by any DPEs in the respective district. The FAA was not prepared (staffed) to handle the task the FAA created for itself and the resulting testing delays for an intial CFI were often horrendous. The AOPA and some sister organizations began pushing the FAA to again relax the mandate, and in 2000 the FAA relented slightly, allowing DPEs to conduct intial CFI tests if the candidate could not be tested in a timely manner by a FSDO inspector. FWIW, "timely manner" was defined by the FAA as less than two weeks. However, in my specific case Harrisburg FSDO was okay with my checkride recommendation endorsement expiring before the test could be given--exceeeding 60 days, to the Harrisburg FSDO, was within "a timely manner". FWIW, secondary CFI tests were never part of the FAA's "all in house" mandate of 1987. Secondary CFI checkrides have been and continue to be conducted by DPEs.

Search the AOPA website if you want to refresh your memory further.
 
Can't speak to your experience, Ed, but I know that:
  • In 1977, I had to go to the FSDO for a reinstatement ride (CFI expired in the middle of the Pacific Ocean) despite an on-staff examiner authorized for every other airplane certificate and rating.
  • In 1980, I had to go to the FSDO for a renewal ride (no FIRC available where I was, no DPE authorized to do it, and insufficient activity for renewal on that basis).
  • In 1990, I took my reinstatement ride with a DPE (the late Ed Cresap at Freeway).
 
Ron Levy said:
Can't speak to your experience, Ed, but I know that:
  • In 1977, I had to go to the FSDO for a reinstatement ride (CFI expired in the middle of the Pacific Ocean) despite an on-staff examiner authorized for every other airplane certificate and rating.
  • In 1980, I had to go to the FSDO for a renewal ride (no FIRC available where I was, no DPE authorized to do it, and insufficient activity for renewal on that basis).
  • In 1990, I took my reinstatement ride with a DPE (the late Ed Cresap at Freeway).
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Here's one AOPA link less Ron's erroneous memory confuse anyone other than Ron:

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2000/00-3-112.html
 
I can't speak for anyone else, but I did my initial CFI ride in 1984 with a DE at SUS (Spirit of St. Louis). I don't remember it being long, in fact I don't really remember much about it at all... :dunno:
 
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