CFI Training without a medical?

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lsaway

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lsaway
For a commercial rated pilot without a current medical, is it possible to earn a CFI, CFII? 61.183 Eligibility, does not say anything about a medical certificate. This would be for the intention of only providing ATD instruction and instruction when CFI is not a required crew member.

How do flight schools view this to obtain the required training without a medical? How about the checkride without a medical?
 
With no medical you could pretty much only do flight reviews for current pilots unless you go basic med.
 
You can’t do the check ride because you are PIC on the flight test.

61.23
3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—

(i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, or student pilot certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);

(ii) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate and acting as the pilot in command or as a required flightcrew member, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);

(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);

Class III or Basic Med is required.
 
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lsaway said:
For a commercial rated pilot without a current medical, is it possible to earn a CFI, CFII? 61.183 Eligibility, does not say anything about a medical certificate. This would be for the intention of only providing ATD instruction and instruction when CFI is not a required crew member.

How do flight schools view this to obtain the required training without a medical? How about the checkride without a medical?
Click to expand...
61.39(a)(4). It IS possible to instruct without a medical in certain, very limited circumstances. Having said that, IIRC, it is assumed that the Practical Test applicant will be acting PIC unless prior arrangements have been made. A discussion with the DPE involved is warranted.

So, unless this is hypothetical, what does the said CFI candidate hope to do with the certificate without the medical?
 
So, if you already have a commercial licence, not current on your medical, you can get your Basic Med, get your CFI certification, and be a CFI. Am I reading this correctly?

61.23 C vi Operations requiring either a medical or US Drivers License - Exercising the privileges of a flight instructor and acting as PIC if flight is conducted under limitation of 61.113 (which is that you have Basic Med and you fly under limitations of Basic med - under 18k feet, under 250 kts, etc.)
 
WDD said:
So, if you already have a commercial licence, not current on your medical, you can get your Basic Med, get your CFI certification, and be a CFI. Am I reading this correctly?

61.23 C vi Operations requiring either a medical or US Drivers License - Exercising the privileges of a flight instructor and acting as PIC if flight is conducted under limitation of 61.113 (which is that you have Basic Med and you fly under limitations of Basic med - under 18k feet, under 250 kts, etc.)
Click to expand...

Yes, you need either Basic Med or a Class III to take the test and or instruct.
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, you need either Basic Med or a Class III to take the test and or instruct.
Click to expand...

So a private pilot can go Basic Med. Then get an instrument rating, a commercial rating, and then a CFI rating all under Basic Med?
 
It’s the flight test that will likely trip you up.

There’s various instruction that you could give if you were already a CFI, but to get through the practical you usually have to act as PIC.

However... a DPE is not mandated to not act as PIC as far as I can tell. It’s just FAA’s recommendation.

So if you were to talk to the examiner ahead of time and know they’ll accept PIC duties... maybe. Many won’t for various reasons.

This used to be harder when the initial CFI DPE was FSDO assigned. You wouldn’t know who to talk to.

Find a friendly DPE and talk about your plans.

If you’re thinking about light sport or gliders do NOT apply for a medical (light sport) and definitely do NOT get a denial (both). Those kill self-certification.

Also be aware that FAA still takes the statement “... not know or have reason to know of any medical condition ... to operate... in a safe manner...” seriously for the self-cert crowd.
 
denverpilot said:
It’s the flight test that will likely trip you up.

There’s various instruction that you could give if you were already a CFI, but to get through the practical you usually have to act as PIC.

However... a DPE is not mandated to not act as PIC as far as I can tell. It’s just FAA’s recommendation.

So if you were to talk to the examiner ahead of time and know they’ll accept PIC duties... maybe. Many won’t for various reasons.

This used to be harder when the initial CFI DPE was FSDO assigned. You wouldn’t know who to talk to.

Find a friendly DPE and talk about your plans.

If you’re thinking about light sport or gliders do NOT apply for a medical (light sport) and definitely do NOT get a denial (both). Those kill self-certification.

Also be aware that FAA still takes the statement “... not know or have reason to know of any medical condition ... to operate... in a safe manner...” seriously for the self-cert crowd.
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether the DPE is willing to act as PIC, the applicant is required to hold a medical or qualify for BasicMed in order to take a practical test. See 61.23(a)(3)(iii).
 
denverpilot said:
It’s the flight test that will likely trip you up.

There’s various instruction that you could give if you were already a CFI, but to get through the practical you usually have to act as PIC.

However... a DPE is not mandated to not act as PIC as far as I can tell. It’s just FAA’s recommendation.

So if you were to talk to the examiner ahead of time and know they’ll accept PIC duties... maybe. Many won’t for various reasons.

This used to be harder when the initial CFI DPE was FSDO assigned. You wouldn’t know who to talk to.

Find a friendly DPE and talk about your plans.

If you’re thinking about light sport or gliders do NOT apply for a medical (light sport) and definitely do NOT get a denial (both). Those kill self-certification.

Also be aware that FAA still takes the statement “... not know or have reason to know of any medical condition ... to operate... in a safe manner...” seriously for the self-cert crowd.
Click to expand...

Where in 61.23 do you read except if the examiner agrees to be PIC?
 
Brad Z said:
Regardless of whether the DPE is willing to act as PIC, the applicant is required to hold a medical or qualify for BasicMed in order to take a practical test. See 61.23(a)(3)(iii).
Click to expand...

Ahh right. I had it in my head that the glider CFI and Recreational had a carve out... but it’s not for the Instructor certificate. :)

So yeah. It references over to 61.113(i) which is BasicMed.

Kinda silly you need it for the test, even if the examiner can choose to act as PIC... since if you passed, you could exercise the CFI certificate in various ways without either one.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
61.39(a)(4).
So, unless this is hypothetical, what does the said CFI candidate hope to do with the certificate without the medical?
Click to expand...

Primarily instructing in AATD devices & instructing in aircraft when instructor is not a required flight crew member.

Brad Z said:
Regardless of whether the DPE is willing to act as PIC, the applicant is required to hold a medical or qualify for BasicMed in order to take a practical test. See 61.23(a)(3)(iii).
Click to expand...

Okay, I see where 61.23(a)(3)(iii) makes it impossible to take the practical test in an aircraft. This brings up 61.23(b)(8). Question is would a DPE conduct the practical test in one of the approved devices, if all the required procedures be properly demonstrated in the device?

§ 61.23 – Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—

(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;

(8) When taking a practical test or a proficiency check for a certificate, rating, authorization or operating privilege conducted in a glider, balloon, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Is a Special Issuance a possibility?
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Possibly? That is something I will look into at a later date. I have been reading a lot of good info on the Medical board. I don't want to try for SI if I am not 100% certain (LSA). How is Guam Today? I used to fly in Guam & CNMI.
 
lsaway said:
Possibly? That is something I will look into at a later date. I have been reading a lot of good info on the Medical board. I don't want to try for SI if I am not 100% certain (LSA). How is Guam Today? I used to fly in Guam & CNMI.
Click to expand...

If you want to be 100% certain or as close as possible, get a consult with a knowledgeable senior AME. NOT a medical application.

There’s a couple here including @bbchien — and the sort who will be your advocate BEFORE submitting paperwork.

A denial closes multiple doors for flying in general, so if you want to fly and not teach, be cautious. Know the answer before you apply.

Don’t hire a doc who’ll leave anything to chance.
 
The person is a commercial rated pilot with an expired medical. Why not just get Basic Med? Why the special issuance, etc. to get a 3rd class?
 
WDD said:
The person is a commercial rated pilot with an expired medical. Why not just get Basic Med? Why the special issuance, etc. to get a 3rd class?
Click to expand...

Maybe the simulator weighs more than 6000 lbs? ;)

(Ducking... quit throwing tomatoes...) :)
 
WDD said:
The person is a commercial rated pilot with an expired medical. Why not just get Basic Med? Why the special issuance, etc. to get a 3rd class?
Click to expand...

Medical expired prior to July 14, 2006. Basic Med does not apply. I won't apply for current med and risk LSA, unless I am 100% certain. I have my own AATD, and I could instruct on it without med if I could obtain a CFII.
 
lsaway said:
Okay, I see where 61.23(a)(3)(iii) makes it impossible to take the practical test in an aircraft. This brings up 61.23(b)(8). Question is would a DPE conduct the practical test in one of the approved devices, if all the required procedures be properly demonstrated in the device?
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It's not the DPE's choice...there has to be an approved Part 141 or 142 course for the Flight Instructor certificate...They may exist, but I've never heard of one.
§61.64 Use of a flight simulator and flight training device.
(a) Use of a flight simulator or flight training device. If an applicant for a certificate or rating uses a flight simulator or flight training device for training or any portion of the practical test, the flight simulator and flight training device—

(1) Must represent the category, class, and type (if a type rating is applicable) for the rating sought; and

(2) Must be qualified and approved by the Administrator and used in accordance with an approved course of training under part 141 or part 142 of this chapter; or under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter, provided the applicant is a pilot employee of that air carrier operator.
Click to expand...
 
MauleSkinner said:
It's not the DPE's choice...there has to be an approved Part 141 or 142 course for the Flight Instructor certificate...They may exist, but I've never heard of one.
Click to expand...

I just did a quick search for part 141 CFI courses. Several places show to offer 141 approved CFI course using combination of simulator and aircraft time in the curriculum. I will do some investigating.
 
lsaway said:
I just did a quick search for part 141 CFI courses. Several places show to offer 141 approved CFI course using combination of simulator and aircraft time in the curriculum. I will do some investigating.
Click to expand...

61.183
g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in §61.187(b) of this part, appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;

(h) Pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought in an:

(1) Aircraft that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the aircraft rating sought; or

(2) Flight simulator or approved flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with a course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/part_142/media/Active_FAA-142_Training_Centers.pdf

Good luck finding a CFI course of training at a 142 training center and if you do take lots of cash.
 
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lsaway said:
I just did a quick search for part 141 CFI courses. Several places show to offer 141 approved CFI course using combination of simulator and aircraft time in the curriculum. I will do some investigating.
Click to expand...
You'll need a part 142 course in order to do the whole thing in a sim. See 61.183(h)(2).
 
MauleSkinner said:
It's not the DPE's choice...there has to be an approved Part 141 or 142 course for the Flight Instructor certificate...They may exist, but I've never heard of one.
Click to expand...
MauleSkinner said:
It's not the DPE's choice...there has to be an approved Part 141 or 142 course for the Flight Instructor certificate...They may exist, but I've never heard of one.
Click to expand...

I believe 61.183 trumps 61.64 for flight instructor tests.
 
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Thank you Edfred, clip4, Greg Brockelman, WDD, Ryanshort1, Brad Z, Denver Pilot, Doc Holliday, & MauleSkinner for everybody's insights. It is now clear that this path, although is not impossible, is not probable. The FARs sure can run in circles. With all your help, we seemed to have reached the correct conclusion that a part 142 program is needed for a sim practical test for somebody seeking a CFI without a medical, which is not practical in my situation.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Why not get your ground instructor ratings?
Click to expand...

I did get ground instructor license over 2 decades ago that I have never used. It does not help me in the AATD. There is still the option of LSA instructor, but not useful for ATD.
 
IF Part 61 definitions apply to Part 141:


Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.

PART 141 says:


141.81 Ground training.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each instructor who is assigned to a ground training course must hold a flight or ground instructor certificate, or a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air rating, with the appropriate rating for that course of training.

(b) A person who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be assigned ground training duties in a ground training course, if:

(1) The chief instructor who is assigned to that ground training course finds the person qualified to give that training; and

(2) The training is given while under the supervision of the chief instructor or the assistant chief instructor who is present at the facility when the training is given.
 
Clip4 said:
IF Part 61 definitions apply to Part 141:


Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.

PART 141 says:


141.81 Ground training.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each instructor who is assigned to a ground training course must hold a flight or ground instructor certificate, or a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air rating, with the appropriate rating for that course of training.

(b) A person who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be assigned ground training duties in a ground training course, if:

(1) The chief instructor who is assigned to that ground training course finds the person qualified to give that training; and

(2) The training is given while under the supervision of the chief instructor or the assistant chief instructor who is present at the facility when the training is given.
Click to expand...
Same for 135, 121, and 142.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Which part does it trump?
Click to expand...

I think that what Brad Z & Clip4 are saying is that 61.64 reads "...flight simulator or flight training device for training or any portion of the practical test...".
Practical test is not further defined by specific certificate, but 61.183 more specifically apples to flight instructor certificate.

61.183 reads "(2) Flight simulator or approved flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with a course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter."

So they say 61.183 trumps 61.64 when applied to flight instructor. After reviewing myself, I agree.
 
lsaway said:
I think that what Brad Z & Clip4 are saying is that 61.64 reads "...flight simulator or flight training device for training or any portion of the practical test...".
Practical test is not further defined by specific certificate, but 61.183 more specifically apples to flight instructor certificate.

61.183 reads "(2) Flight simulator or approved flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with a course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter."

So they say 61.183 trumps 61.64 when applied to flight instructor. After reviewing myself, I agree.
Click to expand...
So you’re saying that taking the checkride in a sim requires an approved 142 sim course trumps the requirement for an approved 142 course to take the checkride in a sim?

sorry...got that backwards.

either way, it’s not the DPE’s choice on how to do the checkride.
 
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