CFI to student

[Richard]

The FAA makes a big deal out of the CFI being relatable to the student. But how often in real world is there an obstable in transference of knowledge to the student? What have been YOUR experiences?

For this discussion, disregard English as a second language and such 'natural' obstacles.

 

[jesse]

I did all my training when I was 17. I used a couple instructors varying from early 20s to late 40s. I was more comfortable with the younger one and as a result used him for most of my primary training.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I started getting serious about my training when I was about 15 or 16. I mainly flew with 3 instructors, an older aggressive CFI, a middle-aged CFI with a bad smoking habit, and a young 24 year old CFI a few years out of college.

I found I could relate myself best to the younger CFI and could really understand what he's teaching more so than from the other CFIs. I ended up flying with him for the rest of my primary training. It's also a pleasure to fly with him since he is very relaxed and fun to be with in the airplane, unlike the other two. It's much easier and comfortable to learn in that type of environment, at least for me.

The other two CFI's didn't really make it fun to fly. It seemed many tasks were optional (ie: using a rough 10 minute figure instead of actually learning how to use a time-to-climb chart in the POH for the Top-Of-Climb calculation) and just felt uncomfortable around them. The relationship I have with my current CFI is very different...I think of him more as an experienced flying buddy than a CFI, in fact I took him out waterskiing over the summer for fun which he enjoyed despite his hangover from the night before (it was one of those bright and early waterskiing sessions too).

 

[poadeleted20]

Based on my 35 years as a CFI, I think there are always obstacles to learning for every instructor and every student. They can range from experiential differences, to educational differences, to personalities, to erroneous or unrealistic expectations (on both parts), to cultural backgrounds, to age or gender gaps. The longer you work as an instructor, the more of these you experience, and the better you get at overcoming them, but you never see everything and you never learn to deal with all of them -- sometimes you really do have to find the student a different instructor. Examples? I could write a book...and maybe I should.

 

[Everskyward]

What have been YOUR experiences?

I've have to go along with Jesse and Jason in that I learned how to fly when I was young and, at that time, I tended to relate better to younger rather than older too. The problem I had with some older guys is that they tended to take a paternalistic attitude towards me which, in hindsight, might be natural, but always hacked me off. One of the advantages to being older now is that it doesn't happen as often. I also tend to prefer people who are easygoing and have a sense of humor although I need to be pushed sometimes. I think personality and whether or not you mesh with the other person makes a big difference, especially in the beginning stages of flying. It's much easier if you are on the same page. Nowadays I can go to training and even if the instructor isn't the person I would have chosen, we can usually be professional enough to get through the week or two and get the job done.

Richard, just think of all the CFIs you know. There are some you would rather learn from than others, right?

 

[kevin47881]

It really depends upon the student. My first CFI was about 10 years younger than me. This wasn't an issue. However, his exceptionally laid back attitude didn't work with my personality when I'm trying to learn something new.

The second CFI was a lot like the first.

The third, who finished me up, was a couple years younger than me but had a great work ethic. He demanded perfection in the plane and nothing else was acceptable. This matches my personality type more closely.

The CFII I'm working with now was also trained by the third. He and I get along great in the plane (and outside the plane). Our expectations match and he pushes me to obtain all maneuvers to half of PTS.

I have also been checked out by a CFII at BNA who was older than me, and while we enjoy each others company, our expectations just didn't click in the plane.

Would my third CFI and CFII work for everybody? Absolutely not. Would the first and second work with everybody? Absolutely and obviously not.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

You pose an interesting question! Over the years I've worked with all sorts of CFI's, some of whom were easy to work with, some who weren't.

The only real snag I had in primary fixed-wing was judging my flare -- I had a tendency to flare too early. In retrospect, it might have been better to do a few sessions with a different CFI (and that's not a slap at the one I used).

There were two snags in my rotorcraft training. The first was learning to hover. That was frustrating and humbling for both of us. Perseverence ultimately fixed everything, and at about 10 hours I started to get it. This is a pretty normal learning curve I later learned, and I'm not at all sure a different CFI would have mattered (the role of a CFI in hover training is mostly to keep you from crashing -- I don't believe the hover can be "taught").

There is one maneuver in the PTS that gave me fits (and which I still don't like) which is the so-called hovering autorotation, which is really an engine failure scenario from 2-3 feet and which doesn't involve an auto at all. It's a difficult maneuver in a low inertia rotor system helicopter like the R22. In theory, you're supposed to chop the throttle, keep the helicopter straight with the pedals, and then cushion the touchdown with collective.

This was the one maneuver that we weren't sure I was prepared for on the checkride. So my instructor set up a couple of sessions with the CFI in the next hangar. His approach was a little different, and that did help me. The DPE made a point, BTW, of saying that all he was looking for was that I keep the helicopter straight. He didn't have to tell me twice, and I did just that without worrying about cushioning the touchdown, and we went on to the next maneuver. Many CFI's that I know want the maneuver removed from the PTS because there isn't a whole lot of point to it...

I think the best instructor I've ever worked with is the DPE who did my PP-RH checkride. He flies for one of the network tv stations in Philly, and absolutely loves to teach. We use him for recurrent and advanced training, and I always walk away with mastering what he's taught and believing that I learned something useful!

 

[EdFred]

I like to think that I could instruct anyone regardless of age but that also has to do with my life experiences outside of flying. I graduated school early and was working full time with people who had grandkids older than me. So you pick up a lot of "useless information" or what seems so at the time, but helps you deal with people in that age group down the road. I also have a brother 13 years my junior, and I still play in rec reagues with a bunch of guys that are in their late teens early 20s and have no trouble relating to that age group. My own age group +/- 10 years is the easy part.

The whole key to teaching isn't what you know, it's how you relate. I like to think I can relate to a pretty broad spectrum of people just by having an entire inventory of useless knowledge. You'll find that the best teachers (as far as relating to a large cross section) aren't the ones who never stray outside their scope of subject matter but those that have done a little bit of everything. Even if that includes cross stiching. Hey, you never know when an example from the world of cross stitching might make it click for someone. With my dad, it happened to be fishing that I needed to make to get a point across.

Want to be a good and flexible teacher, dabble in a whole bunch of different subject areas, but Richard, no hula dancing, I don't want the image of you in a grass skirt burned into anyone's mind.

 

[kevin47881]

Good points Ed. I was a road warrior for the better part of 15 years (over 125 nights/year in hotels) and had daily dealings with people from all walks of life. As you mentioned, one thing I picked up was an understanding of many things outside my life/work experiences. This basic knowledge (or as my wife calls me, Cliff Clavin) of many things has opened up many doors and helped form many friendships over the years.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I like to think I can relate to a pretty broad spectrum of people just by having an entire inventory of useless knowledge.

THAT must be why I relate to people so well!

FWIW, my trainees have ranged in age from 21 to 63.

Richard, no hula dancing, I don't want the image of you in a grass skirt burned into anyone's mind.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!! Liar.

 

[Everskyward]

I was a road warrior for the better part of 15 years (over 125 nights/year in hotels) and had daily dealings with people from all walks of life. As you mentioned, one thing I picked up was an understanding of many things outside my life/work experiences.

I can see that this has happened to me too. It is much easier now for me to relate to all kinds of people than it was when I was young and my breadth of experience was very narrow. I'm impressed with many of the young people here at POA in they they are able to interact easily with some of us older folk. I'm not sure that I would have been able to do that as well when I was in my late teens or early 20s.

 

[rottydaddy]

I had five instructors during my PP studies, and they were all 5-10 years younger than I was (I think). Even the stage check guys. Not really generation-gap material... but it may have been a factor with a couple of them.
The obstacles were (on my end) the annoying habits some of them had: one of them, who was otherwise a really good instructor and a good stick, seemed to always remind me of some thing or twiddle with the radios just as I was about to do it. It was uncanny.That extra beat I used to take really irked him, and he in turn irked me by being impatient (we're not talking "seconds count" situations here, BTW). And rather than simply list the successes and failures of each flight during the debrief, he'd usually act exasperated. I wasn't doing that badly, even on those flights when I was not at my best... I guess it was just his temperament.

My favorite instructors were more "type B"... thorough and strict, but relaxed and not afraid to feed me a little rope to see what would happen. They understood how useful that can be. I think it prepares you for when you start making boo-boos on your solo flights, and of course later when they turn you loose... you note the fault, correct it, and move on; there's no need for drama.
And those guys were also very interested in my thoughts on what I'd done well or poorly... the student's perspective is, of course, vital when trying to evaluate their progress.
Looking back, I made more progress in less time with those guys.

My most recent training sessions were on a whole different level, and not just because I was learning to fly a taildragger... between his "elder" status and the fact that he'd been flying for over 40 years, including a stint in the Navy, that guy was like a Grand Master who'd perfected the "Art of Teaching Without Teaching."

He made it fun and easy to take on what was at first a daunting challenge. It's easy to assume that a 200-plus-hour PP is not going to make a seasoned instructor excited, but I sure gave him a couple of good reasons during those flights!! The bouncing! The perilous taxiing! The nearly-disastrous groundloop!! He just chuckled and waited for me to say what I thought went wrong, then calmly corrected me if necessary or added a side note, then cheerfully encouraged me to go ahead and try again. He was the perfect companion in my battle to overcome my fear of wheel landings... it was like having Yoda back there. And yes, when I first did one solo, I could hear his voice from afar, with lots of reverb.... "stick forward... no, all the way... okay..."

He's probably not as sharp as he used to be, but the knowledge and skill are still there, along with the great humility and patience you get from an old hand like that.

I felt privileged to fly with him... and if I end up instructing at his age (assuming I ever get around to that... or live that long!!), I hope I can be half as good an instructor.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'll jump in from the "instructor" side...next summer will make 20 years with a CFI certificate. While I don't have Ron's experience as a flight instructor (only about 650 hours dual given here), I've taken quite a few guys from the right seat of a Seminole and put them in the right seat of a Beechjet, Hawker, or Citation. And trust me, if you don't think there's some instruction involved in that...

It's a different balancing act, though...you have to make them look good to the people in back...you can't let them make mistakes to the same level that you can in a pure instructional situation, but you have to let them make some mistakes.

The bottom line is the same, though...corrections and instruction have to have meaning to the trainee. I can tell you all day long to stay on centerline during landing, but if you don't hear the comments the passengers make to me about "warming up the tires for better traction", all that weaving probably isn't going to concern you.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Ted]

I've had exposure to a few CFIs and one want-to-be CFI. The CFI I use is a good sum older than me, but he acts young. I'm not sure I could possibly have found someone better suited for me. He's highly skilled with tons of experience in all kinds of aircraft, and to me that's a big plus because not only does it mean he can tell me how things I'm doing now will change when I move up, but he can actually give me good feedback on moving up. His experience with twins doesn't relate to a single cross country in a Seneca, it goes all the way up to a Kingair. For me, this is great.

I can relate to him very well, and the laid back is important to me as he makes flying very enjoyable. I actually prefer flying with him to solo, simply because he's so much fun to have around. He still pushes me, though, but understands where the limits are and not push me past the point where it gets discouraging.

The want-to-be CFI I'm friends with I think would also be good. He's younger (under 30) and is very recent to having done all his training himself. He has over 300 hours and is working towards his CFI. All of his training is fresh in his head, and he loves flying and finds it to be very fun. The one thing I don't like about him is that he can tend to be cocky and convinced of his own correctness, especially in matters where he disagrees with standard convention. What concerns me with him is that I've noticed what I consider to be some bad habits that he'll pass on to his students.

The other instructors I've seen are in the "old fogies" category. I'm sure they're good pilots, but most of them are closer to my late grandmother's age than mine (or my mother's) and they seem to have no interest whatsoever in keeping flying enjoyable to the students. They are so concerned with perfecting the skills that they forget to take the time to just have fun so the students are reminded of why they're doing this in the first place. I would've just given up if I'd ended up with someone like that.