CFI Rating Experience

dell30rb

dell30rb

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Ren
CFI Cert Experience

Now that I am marinating (have been signed off since last week) before my commercial checkride next tuesday, I am starting to think about earning a CFI certificate.

I've heard the checkride can be hell, and a lot of other things. Any of you CFI's care to share your experience training for and earning the rating? Its something I would like to do but i'm trying to decide if I have time for it. Getting the COMM (well I don't have it just yet) was pretty much a no-brainer, everyone says its easy and fun - it was.
 
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Why? Do you want to hate flying?->half sarcasm
 
It's the most failed checkride.

Did my initial CFI with the FSDO (heard that some people are getting away more with using a DPE with the budget cuts), bout a 6ish hour oral, 1.5 air, did fine, but it was and has been the most I've been grilled on a ride thus far.

Did it after I had 700ish hours, not sure how much that helped vs doing it straight after the 250hr CPL

I'd recommend it if you think you're going to have the time to spend a few hours a week for each student.

For me right now it's great for beer money, figure I'll always have one or two select students throughout my flying career, keeps you sharp teaching, first solos are rewarding and it's a little spending cash in your pocket too ;)
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why? Do you want to hate flying?->half sarcasm
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Some of the guys at our flying club are teaching primary students 8 hours a day. I don't think I could take that much 152 time. But I think I could have a lot of fun teaching if I kept it to only a few hours per week.
 
I spent about two weeks, maybe less, from the moment I started preparing for the checkride to when I passed with the FSDO. The ride wasn't easy -- took about eight hours. I was also working full-time through the time period.
 
I'm taking the checkride next week, hopefully. There's no minimum, but expect 5 to 10 hours of flight time relearning to fly from the right seat and flying/teaching simultaneously, and a hundred hours or so of self-study and ground time.
 
jesse said:
I spent about two weeks, maybe less, from the moment I started preparing for the checkride to when I passed with the FSDO. The ride wasn't easy -- took about eight hours. I was also working full-time through the time period.
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That's kinda what I am thinking I could do. Learning to fly from right seat and the written tests don't concern me. I recently spent a bunch of time pouring over charts and FAR's for my commercial checkride so at least most of that stuff is fresh.
 
Too late for some CFI candidates but, flying your commercial training AND pre-commercial from the right side and talking like a Constant Flight Interupter (that actually makes some sense) all during it, will make the transition to CFI hardly more than passing the written.

For my time, CFI part time with only selected students, whether advanced or primary, is the way to go and the overload is referred to my friends.
 
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I found it rewarding, even if I never did any instructing. It's nice to have a high bar to pass. I also had an 8 hour initial. but with DPE.

I have the luxury of a slack work schedule so I was able to dedicate 4 weeks to the 3 rides. I can't imagine doing it part-time, or "on weekends", I think it'd take damn near forever like that.
 
I spent about 80 hours myself on the ground, 20-30 with a CFI working on ground, and maybe 10 flying right seat with him. Of course, I flew all other flying from the right seat as soon as possible.
 
The most important thing to remember about the CFI ticket is that it’s all about teaching, not flying. You will be judged more on your ability to impart learning to your student than on any demonstration of your own pilot skills. The Aviation Instructor's Handbook book is rather dry, and (considering that it’s supposed to be prepared by professionals who really know about teaching) not all that easy to learn from. However, the important data are there, and you’d best learn not only to parrot them, but to understand what they mean and apply them when you teach (and if you don’t recognize these “levels of learning” you’re not ready yet). You will have to be able to read the student’s mind to find out whether he’s really learned the material or not, and if not, WHY not. Then you must be able to figure out how to get past whatever barrier to understanding exists in that student’s mind. You’ll find that there are as many successful techniques as there are students, but there may only be one of those many that works for any one particular student. Being able to hit on one that will work quickly, before the student becomes discouraged, is the toughest part of flight instructing.

How to work through this? Get with some successful teachers, not necessarily pilots. I’m talking about someone you know who’s an experienced high school teacher, one that the kids remember long after graduation as the highlight of their experience. Talk about teaching and learning with this person. You might also consider some basic education courses at the local college.

Finally, here are a few points I put together to get your mind right for the initial CFI checkride:

1. You are a teacher, not a pilot. How you teach is far more important than how you fly the plane. It doesn't matter if you slightly screw up a maneuver, as long as you identify the screw-up as it happens, talk about why it happened, and then how to do it right.

2. Don't rush into any answers. When asked questions, show the examiner where the answer is written -- you're showing how to teach a student, not demonstrating your own superior knowledge. That means you should know COLD where to find the answers -- if asked about the red/green/white tower light gun signals, it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to get to the right page in the AIM. And you should know instantly whether an answer to an FAR question is in Part 61 or Part 91 (HINT: If the rule applies no matter who's flying the plane, it's in 91. If not, it's in 61.)

3. Be relaxed and organized. When asked a to teach an item, take a moment to gather your thoughts and draw out any blackboard diagrams or itemized lists for the lesson. You're not on "Jeopardy" -- there's no one gonna beat you to the buzzer and steal your $200 prize.

4. Inventory your stuff before you go to the meet -- the checklist in the PTS is a good tool. Make sure you have all the source materials to teach as well as answer all the questions in the PTS.

5. Typically, during the oral, the examiner will jump on one topic and continue asking questions until you run out of answers. In the Air Force, we called this game "Stump the Dummy." As the questioner knows more than the questionee about the topic he selected (which is why the questioner selected it), the final outcome (the dummy is stumped) is never in doubt. The critical elements are how far the dummy can get before being stumped, and how he handles the situation -- straight knowledge, clear explanations, use of the book when appropriate or necessary, and no BS or tap-dancing when finally stumped.

6. Expect a long, grueling session. You're being given the authority to release others into the sky without anyone else's oversight. They want to make damn sure you can make good decisions in that respect. For that reason, I think the initial CFI is the most significant ride you'll ever take.

Good luck,
Ron Levy
CFI since 1973
 
One thing I'd add, when I did mine I probably spent 4-5hrs in a arrow (which I was flying for work anyways), didn't really spend any time with a CFI on the ground (under 5hrs), rest was home study, all the FAA pubs, from the ground up, also wikipedia was good for FOI lol.

A HUGE help was offering some free tutoring at the flightschool. Did a bunch of that lol
 
jesse said:
I spent about two weeks, maybe less, from the moment I started preparing for the checkride to when I passed with the FSDO. The ride wasn't easy -- took about eight hours. I was also working full-time through the time period.
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I'm pretty relieved to hear this. I'm trying to do it in just under 2 months and freaking out a little about the time constraint.


Also, thanks for posting this thread. As someone going through CFI training right now it's great to read.
 
Flying from the right seat and flying while talking your way through every detail of what you're doing are much different. Try it for yourself, then you'll know.

dell30rb said:
That's kinda what I am thinking I could do. Learning to fly from right seat and the written tests don't concern me. I recently spent a bunch of time pouring over charts and FAR's for my commercial checkride so at least most of that stuff is fresh.
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Ron Levy said:
How to work through this? Get with some successful teachers, not necessarily pilots.
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The CFI I would definitely use for this rating was my primary and instrument instructor (different one for commercial tho) and is a retired public school teacher plus 7000 hours dual instruction given. You, Wayne and others make a good point. I haven't done much teaching in my lifetime.
 
Ive been trying to get mine done for a year now. Went to an accelerated school that ran in to problems and trying tomuse the club's experienced cfi. No luck. I finally got in touch with Nan Gaylord and a very reputable cfi who only does cfi rides, so there is hope.

It is tough to talk just enough (and correctly) while flying; I have a new repect for the profession.
 
You'll gain a new-found respect for all those things that your brain, hands and feet are doing as you fly the plane but have never before required a running verbal commentary in proper descriptive aviation terminology. We've discussed some of the easy ones before, such as "reduce power slightly" as opposed to "take off power." Most of it is stuff that you know how to do but simply haven't learned to talk about.

QUOTE=dell30rb;1189077]The CFI I would definitely use for this rating was my primary and instrument instructor (different one for commercial tho) and is a retired public school teacher plus 7000 hours dual instruction given. You, Wayne and others make a good point. I haven't done much teaching in my lifetime.[/QUOTE]
 
dmspilot said:
I'm taking the checkride next week, hopefully. There's no minimum, but expect 5 to 10 hours of flight time relearning to fly from the right seat and flying/teaching simultaneously, and a hundred hours or so of self-study and ground time.
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dell30rb said:
Learning to fly from right seat and the written tests don't concern me. I recently spent a bunch of time pouring over charts and FAR's for my commercial checkride so at least most of that stuff is fresh.
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The hundred hours plus of studying I mentioned is NOT for the written tests. It's for the checkride. And it's not just studying, but practicing your delivery.

And as Wayne noted, you must talk and teach while flying. I find that the talking part takes at least 75% of my brain power so I only have less than 25% left to fly the airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
5. Typically, during the oral, the examiner will jump on one topic and continue asking questions until you run out of answers. In the Air Force, we called this game "Stump the Dummy." As the questioner knows more than the questionee about the topic he selected (which is why the questioner selected it), the final outcome (the dummy is stumped) is never in doubt. The critical elements are how far the dummy can get before being stumped, and how he handles the situation -- straight knowledge, clear explanations, use of the book when appropriate or necessary, and no BS or tap-dancing when finally stumped.
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Thankfully in the civilian world we don't play these foolish games during an examination. :rolleyes2:

And FWIW, I have given several CFI initial exams.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Thankfully in the civilian world we don't play these foolish games during an examination. :rolleyes2:
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My experience with both Designated Pilot Examiners and FAA Ops Inspectors would suggest otherwise.
 
jesse said:
My experience with both Designated Pilot Examiners and FAA Ops Inspectors would suggest otherwise.
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Yeah,
They do know more, and more of the time do want to how much you know. Although sometimes they get to the minimum and move on.
 
I take mine on the 22nd of July. It took me awhile to find my teaching voice (and deal with the FAA to get a checkride) but the best way I found was to get in front of students with the instructor to make sure your information is correct and practice teaching the students. Figuring out what questions to ask the students to ensure they understand the material is also important. Talking and flying takes a bit of time as well.
 
Ron Levy said:
Ditto. Not every examiner operates like R&W did, and in my experience, most don't.
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I operated as per FAA training and direction. Playing games such as "stump the dummy" is ok for the military but doesn't hold a place in the real world.

Scenario based exams and evaluating the applicant in a fair concise manner is acceptable.

Your "experience" is as an observer, not a qualified DPE.

Go take a DPE initial course and tell them your method of oral exam is "stump the dummy" and come back and tell us the reply.
 
I didn't particularly enjoy getting my CFI. The training itself wasn't hard, but the inspector I had was a jerk who thought that at 450 hours (by which point over 100 of which had been in the Aztec) I didn't have enough time to be an instructor. The inspector was really the problem in this equation, and was one of the horror stories who was out to prove how much he knew and I didn't.

Getting my CFII and MEI add-ons were much more enjoyable, although I did take those rides with DPEs rather than inspectors. Although I certainly haven't earned enough money to recoup the costs of getting the ratings through direct instruction, I also haven't been trying to. What it did for me was open other doors for me. "Oh hey, you can instruct, I need some instruction" turns into "Hey can you fly my Navajo?"

I think having the ratings has been a good thing to do and have, so I would definitely do it again. I would recommend doing it, if nothing else for the additional education and flying opportunities it will provide you.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I operated as per FAA training and direction.
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In the past, you specifically stated here on this site that you could deviate from FAA Order 8900.1 at your discretion. Perhaps you didn't actually do that, but you said you could.

Playing games such as "stump the dummy" is ok for the military but doesn't hold a place in the real world.
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That may be your opinion, but the fact is it's done anyway.

Scenario based exams and evaluating the applicant in a fair concise manner is acceptable.
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One can easily play "stump the dummy" within that method.

Your "experience" is as an observer, not a qualified DPE.
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Whether or not I am a qualified DPE, I am a very qualified observer of what real DPE's actually do, whether the FAA wants them to do it or not.

Go take a DPE initial course and tell them your method of oral exam is "stump the dummy" and come back and tell us the reply.
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Completely irrelevant request. The issue is only what actually happens, not what you or I would do, nor what the FAA wants done.
 
Ron Levy said:
In the past, you specifically stated here on this site that you could deviate from FAA Order 8900.1 at your discretion. Perhaps you didn't actually do that, but you said you could.
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Please show the post where I stated that.

Ron Levy said:
Whether or not I am a qualified DPE, I am a very qualified observer of what real DPE's actually do, whether the FAA wants them to do it or not.
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Qualified? Really? You've never attended any formal (or required) training as a DPE yet you are "qualified" observer?

Really?


Ron Levy said:
Completely irrelevant request. The issue is only what actually happens, not what you or I would do, nor what the FAA wants done.
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So the people that actually give the training and direction are irrelevant?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Please show the post where I stated that.



Qualified? Really? You've never attended any formal (or required) training as a DPE yet you are "qualified" observer?

Really?




So the people that actually give the training and direction are irrelevant?
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The question is what actually happens out there, and the answer is just what I said.

Adios.
 
Dean V said:
Then there are those few precious times when the examiner doesn't know as much on the chosen topic as the applicant when they play stump the chump and the applicant turns the table.
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BTDT with regards to electrical systems on a checkride.
 
My examiner didn't play "stump the chump" with me, but he did have me keep reciting FAR factoids until I ran out...on every topic we covered. So I suppose it was more along the lines of "why are you hitting yourself?" :D
 
Dean V said:
Then there are those few precious times when the examiner doesn't know as much on the chosen topic as the applicant when they play stump the chump and the applicant turns the table.
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I had to take the controls from a DPE once.

And no, it wasn't a test.
 
Ron Levy said:
In the past, you specifically stated here on this site that you could deviate from FAA Order 8900.1 at your discretion. Perhaps you didn't actually do that, but you said you could.
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RotorAndWing said:
Please show the post where I stated that.
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Ron Levy said:
The question is what actually happens out there, and the answer is just what I said.

Adios.
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Yet another baseless claim. :rolleyes2: :nonod:


Ron Levy said:
Ditto. Not every examiner operates like R&W did, and in my experience, most don't.
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For the record, you have never seen me give a check ride , so yet another baseless claim.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I didn't particularly enjoy getting my CFI. The training itself wasn't hard, but the inspector I had was a jerk who thought that at 450 hours (by which point over 100 of which had been in the Aztec) I didn't have enough time to be an instructor. The inspector was really the problem in this equation, and was one of the horror stories who was out to prove how much he knew and I didn't.
...
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Not sure how you went into the ride personality and tone wise, however if you went in thinking "I have 450hrs and 100 of that is in a trainer twin, I'm overqualified!" I could understand how a inspector, with thousands and thousands of hours would feel obligated to put you in your place, given the things he's seen that mindset yield as an inspector.

Mine busted my ass, tried to make me question correct answers to some of his questions, "so... you're saying that airspace goes up to but not including 2900?? You ...sure about that?" when it was the correct answer! I understood his thinking and very politely said "yes sir, up to but not including 2900"

Later on in my time instructing I've had plenty of Dr.s and lawyers question things I said with authority in their voices, that inspector knew that would happen and wanted to make sure I could stick with it.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Not sure how you went into the ride personality and tone wise, however if you went in thinking "I have 450hrs and 100 of that is in a trainer twin, I'm overqualified!" I could understand how a inspector, with thousands and thousands of hours would feel obligated to put you in your place, given the things he's seen that mindset yield as an inspector.

Mine busted my ass, tried to make me question correct answers to some of his questions, "so... you're saying that airspace goes up to but not including 2900?? You ...sure about that?" when it was the correct answer! I understood his thinking and very politely said "yes sir, up to but not including 2900"

Later on in my time instructing I've had plenty of Dr.s and lawyers question things I said with authority in their voices, that inspector knew that would happen and wanted to make sure I could stick with it.
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Actually I had no such attitude of being overqualified for the job. I've always felt that 250 hours was typically insufficient experience to be able to impart much wisdom to your students. At the time I had I felt like I was pretty much at the minimum to do a student any service. I also sought out a 6,000 hour pilot for my instructor who'd been there done that.
 
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So just chalk it up to busting your ass, and it woundnt be a checkride if he didnt!

And honestly, I wouldnt have been as happy with my (at that time) newly minted CFI ticket if I merely had a 2hr oral with that happy "no child left behind" type DPE.

Feels good to be run through the gauntlet, to have to EARN that ticket from a experienced INSPECTOR who honestly knows his chit.

I really like to bust my students asses when it comes to flying and some ground subjects, power offs, slips, REAL stalls, spins, dead rec, pilotage and off field work, to name a few. I've had a number of them say the checkride was easier then they expected.

... WELL on one hand that's great, they got their ticket and I got another knotch on my belt, ON THE OTHER HAND, I feel it cheats them of both a feeling of accomplishment and humbleness.

The CFI ride, IMHO, should be what its known for, the most failed FSDO ONLY ride in a pilots career. After all you are being given the authority to let someone who never flew (before meeting you) fly SOLO.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
So just chalk it up to busting your ass, and it woundnt be a checkride if he didnt!

And honestly, I wouldnt have been as happy with my (at that time) newly minted CFI ticket if I merely had a 2hr oral with that happy "no child left behind" type DPE.

Feels good to be run through the gauntlet, to have to EARN that ticket from a experienced INSPECTOR who honestly knows his chit.

I really like to bust my students asses when it comes to flying and some ground subjects, power offs, slips, REAL stalls, spins, dead rec, pilotage and off field work, to name a few. I've had a number of them say the checkride was easier then they expected.

... WELL on one hand that's great, they got their ticket and I got another knotch on my belt, ON THE OTHER HAND, I feel it cheats them of both a feeling of accomplishment and humbleness.

The CFI ride, IMHO, should be what its known for, the most failed FSDO ONLY ride in a pilots career. After all you are being given the authority to let someone who never flew (before meeting you) fly SOLO.
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I've been confused by your posts on this and other topics. Why do you automatically assume that the inspector who did my ride was in the right and that my assessment is incorrect? I wasn't whining about him being unfair, the guy was just a jerk with a hell of an ego. He's one of those inspectors you hear bad stories about, and one of "those guys" who had a reputation in the area. Most inspectors I've come across are very nice and reasonable fellows.

Ren was looking for opinions on the experience of getting one's CFI. I gave mine. Good to know that some opinions are more valid than others. I've taken 9 checkrides, 3 with FAA inspectors. The other 8 I found challenging, a good learning experience, and came away feeling like I'd earned my rating.
 
Any books/ test prep recommended beyond the FAA's handbook?

Also, am I correct in remembering that you do not need a signoff to take the FOI. And any recommendations for prep on that test.
 
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