CFI Problem

newbiepilot

newbiepilot

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newbiepilot
Hi Guys,

I am a student pilot with around 40hrs and have soloed.
My CFI, is most of the time very annoying and i am OK with that. He is pushing me all the time and it helps me become a better pilot. So far so good.

I am very meek by nature and I don't confront and agree to everything.

Yesterday, I had my first cross country with him. I *hated* the entire experience. He was very annoying, ****ed and disrespectful. He kept asking me where we are and then while i was looking at the map he pulled the throttle back and then 2 minutes later he was asking me why we descending and thing like that. I know he want me to multi-task but then i started panicking. He asked me to do all radios and i had my share of hiccups. He was very ****ed off with that. He was asking me why I can't remember simple calls. Pretty much in the entire flight he was complaining about something or other. He forcibly took controls (we were safe and no emergency) without positive exchange of controls. Things like that. You get the picture.

After, 5 hour of stressful flight, yesterday for the first time i was thinking what the hell i am doing blowing my money on something I am not enjoying.

I am a Healthcare professional and have a very busy schedule. But I spend time reading and learning. I think we have a problem with expectations here. All other of his students are getting trained to become pilots.

I am not sure what to do. I have been with him for 4 months. I had bad days with him before but always shrugged it off with positive mental attitude but can't get rid of what happened in my first cross country.

Can you guys please help me with your thoughts? Am I thinking this too much? Is this normal?

Thanks in advance
- newbie
 
Yep, take another CFI up with you and have him evaluate your skills.
 
A feel a relationship with a CFI is a very personal thing.
In my opinion if you don’t mesh with your CFI then it would be best to find another CFI that you can have fun with.
As for radio calls I have them on laminated sheets on a knee board for each airport and use a wet erase to fill in the blanks before I make the call. I just read it and I have more attention left over for other things like flying the aircraft.
Good luck on your aviation adventure.
In my opinion any good adventure has challenges and part of the fun is working through the challenges.
 
Stewartb said:
40 hours/first XC? Yes, find a different instructor.
Click to expand...

If 40 hrs and he is only at x country, does not mean it is the instructor. The fact he is bothered that the CFI wanted him to do all the radio work and struggled is an indication it might also be the student could be part of the problem. He stated after 2 minutes the instructor had to mention the descending altitude. I had a student finally at 30 hrs solo because they couldn't remeber the basic steps of doing stalls.

Also if the CFI is ****y and annoyed that is a sign he is frustrated, or he might just be a miserable person. They need to have some better communication between them. It seems they both have some issues. In reality the CFI cannot always have it his way, and the student cannot have it all his way either. There has to be common ground and meet somewhere in the middle.
 
newbiepilot said:
Hi Guys,

I am a student pilot with around 40hrs and have soloed.
My CFI, is most of the time very annoying and i am OK with that. He is pushing me all the time and it helps me become a better pilot. So far so good.

I am very meek by nature and I don't confront and agree to everything.

Yesterday, I had my first cross country with him. I *hated* the entire experience. He was very annoying, ****ed and disrespectful. He kept asking me where we are and then while i was looking at the map he pulled the throttle back and then 2 minutes later he was asking me why we descending and thing like that. I know he want me to multi-task but then i started panicking. He asked me to do all radios and i had my share of hiccups. He was very ****ed off with that. He was asking me why I can't remember simple calls. Pretty much in the entire flight he was complaining about something or other. He forcibly took controls (we were safe and no emergency) without positive exchange of controls. Things like that. You get the picture.

After, 5 hour of stressful flight, yesterday for the first time i was thinking what the hell i am doing blowing my money on something I am not enjoying.

I am a Healthcare professional and have a very busy schedule. But I spend time reading and learning. I think we have a problem with expectations here. All other of his students are getting trained to become pilots.

I am not sure what to do. I have been with him for 4 months. I had bad days with him before but always shrugged it off with positive mental attitude but can't get rid of what happened in my first cross country.

Can you guys please help me with your thoughts? Am I thinking this too much? Is this normal?

Thanks in advance
- newbie
Click to expand...

If you are at 40 hrs and in this state of mind, my advice is for you to quit flying. I don't have the time right now to go into all the reasons you should not be a pilot, but sufice it to say, you will die as PIC. This isn't me being a prick, this is not personal or a dig at you, but not all people are wired for command, and you are not. That will one day kill you, and whomever happens to be with you. Quit now, save the money, take up sailing.
 
There are a lot of people in aviation that are so full of them selves and get a kick out of being an a-hole. Find one that isn't and get back to enjoying flying.
 
JasonM said:
There are a lot of people in aviation that are so full of them selves and get a kick out of being an a-hole. Find one that isn't and get back to enjoying flying.
Click to expand...

He wasn't being an a-hole, he was influencing minor and typical stressors to the situation which at 40hrs should have been trivial yet there was a "near panic" reaction. The CFI is there to get them ready to serve in a command function. Self described "meek and non confrontational" are not traits that are conducive to command ability.

The OP is doing something they aren't wired to do, they aren't having fun. Aviation is deadly and expensive, why would one pursue it if they don't thoroughly enjoy it especially when the odds are it will kill them?:dunno:
 
"I am very meek by nature"

This concerns me a bit.
It is one thing to be non confrontational but If you really are "meek by nature" then piloting an aircraft is going to be hard and potentially unsafe.

What do you really mean by that comment?

If that was just your way of verbalizing a non confrontational nature, then no worries and my answer is fire your CFI. That's your first step in growing a pair so to speak. Actually either way, I would go fly with a different instructor. Even if you are struggling with things, it doesn't sound like this guy is helping but rather pushing you further into a submission state.

If you really are Meek, skiddish, unconfidient, then I tend to side with Mr. Henning.

When you are left seat, you step up to the plate and own everything. If there is a 1% chance that you are going to get in a situation and your answer be "Jesus take the yoke" I'd pick a slower hobby.

Your passengers will trust you to pilot the aircraft unconditionally.

For starters though, go fly with another CFI. Do a short XC and see if it is different.
 
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Wow Henning, you haven't met or flown with the guy.
 
I say get a new CFI. I had issues with my first CFI on my first lesson out, and I nearly quit after 1 lesson. Needless to say, I've been flying with a new CFI starting with my 2nd lesson. I've been progressing nicely and get along great with him. I'm working on a few kinks in my landings right now, but everything else I do is precise. My first CFI was just too tightly wound for my liking and I especially didn't care for his comments. I posted my experience with him on my first lesson, and many on here advised me to find a new CFI, as he was unfairly telling me to quit after not being able to takeoff and manage rudders on my first attempt. Damn, I've only been driving a car for the past 37 years, and an airplane for 2 minutes, so I don't know why it should have been so difficult. :D
 
wby0nder said:
Wow Henning, you haven't met or flown with the guy.
Click to expand...

That is correct, and I stand by my advice. No need to fly with him, this isn't about physical flying capability. It's an assessment of his mental wiring given what they are saying. I am willing to bet the OP has already come to the same conclusion. Listen to the words people use, it tells you a lot in where they are. That they are at 40hrs and just now doing their first XC does not tell me they are excelling in the learning process.
 
FastEddieB said:
To Henning:

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
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People are always welcome to judge me and give an honest critique. There is a difference between assesing and being judgmental. I have seen enough people off west that if someone asks for an honest assessment of their situation I will give it to them even if it's not what they were looking to hear. They can accept it or not as they feel appropriate, if they don't, well, at least I didn't blow smoke up their ass to keep them at something I think will kill them, that would be immoral. I can only asses the information presented, and as presented, they are a hazard to themselves and not cut out for the stress of command.
 
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newbiepilot said:
I am very meek by nature and I don't confront and agree to everything.
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I understand what Henning is concerned about; it's the same problem SixPapaCharlie referred to.

I doubt the answer is "quit flying." If that was the case, everyone who ever started out with "mike fright" should have quit as well.

But newbie, a major part of the role of being in command is not agreeing to everything. It's doing something that you probably understand as a healthcare professional, sometimes referred to by the phrase "exercising independent professional judgment."

There are so many examples of pilots doing things they shouldn't because they did what they were told or was expected of them. And unfortunately, a lot of those involve accidents and fatalities. Simple, non-fatal real-world illustration: At my old home base a few years ago, the tower instructed a solo student who had just landed to turn left off the runway at the next taxiway. The student was still moving a bit too fast but, doing what she was told, tried to make the turn - and ended up stuck in the grassy median tipped over. A simple "unable" in response to the Tower instruction and making the command decision to wait until the next taxiway was all it would have taken to avoid the accident.

But I disagree with Henning on this. Taking command responsibility can be as much a learned behavior as steep turns.

BTW, no way to be sure without being there but your CFI sounds a bit overbearing; but maybe that's your first lesson in taking command — telling him when to shut up and not mess with your flight controls when appropriate!
 
If you are spending this much of your limited time (and money) on flying, you must be pretty keenly interested. The behavior of your CFI, as you describe it, is counterproductive. Jettison your CFI immediately and try again. If you don't love flying with a CFI who suits you better, you're likely wasting your time (and money).

You seem to be describing yourself as having a very diffident personality, with a bit of a tendency to panic. Flying requires great presence of mind, and sufficient assertiveness to plot a course (literally and figuratively) and justify it (and to communicate with conviction to ATC, etc.). It's not really for the faint of heart. Mr. Henning puts it bluntly, but yes, hesitancy can kill you. (Of course, overconfidence also kills pilots.)

I wish you happy and safe flying, or alternate pursuit.

CF
 
I recommend reading the transcript from AF447s CVR, the OP will most likely react similarly under stress, with similar results.
 
There's never anything wrong with trying another instructor out. If you like them better, make the switch permanent. Not every instructor gets along with every student.

I am curious about the "meek" comment. There are times in aviating where people will push you to do things unsafe--either intentionally or unintentially. You need to have the confidence to say "unable" from time to time. Are you saying you lack confidence in general, or just when it comes to flying?

Maybe Henning's right, maybe he's wrong. Either way, without going up with another instructor to objectively evaluate you, it's impossible to say here.
 
Here's my two cents. IMHO, I have a suspicion that your CFI is doing this on purpose. When I reached the last 1/4 of my training, my CFI became much harsher and demanding leading up to my checkride. I later realized why.

You have to develop a sense of what it is to be PIC. Your CFI is probably attempting to rattle your cage to see how you deal with stress. I remember my CFI telling me to tune frequencies during turns in the pattern, yelling at me because I wasn't doing this or that. They want to push you around to see if you can hold it all together without freaking out. Your DPE will do the same on your checkride - be at times tough, try to distract you.

From a newly minted PP-ASEL, I can say from my perspective that the attempts to distract me paled in comparison to what I encountered while flying through complex airspace on my own for the first time. If both my CFI and DPE hadn't tested my wits, I think I would have fallen apart while in critical portions of my first few flights as a PP-ASEL.

The irony is that when I went up with my CFI for some night currency training after my checkride, he was a completely different person. Like a friend just acting as safety pilot. That told me it was all an act to give me the toughest skin possible as I transitioned to flying in this crazy world on my own with other lives in my hands.

I do agree that you should have fun. If your CFI is mean, then you should tell him so and see if he changes. At the end of the day, you should enjoy your training but I would consider that he might be testing you. Again, my humble two cents. Good luck!
 
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Find another CFI. Over the years I've met CFIs who should not be instructing anyone! Nothing is archived by talking down to a student or a bi annual or at anytime. My buddy, deceased now who often gave me my bi annual , who " suggest" that I might improve if I ........., instead of some cheap loud mouth crap he saw in the movies. ( when he retired he had well over 14000 hours, had been a demo pilot for Rockwell commander, taught hundreds of students.) another , a formerWW2 navy corsair pilot turned FBO, same way , very quiet and " suggested" a better way to do things instead of heavy handed loud non productive bs. Tell him to f...off and find someone better educated. ( write radio freq. s on your hand in ball point. Easy , I've always done it.)
 
If the sh*t hits the fan, the first thing you ALWAYS want to do is fly the airplane.

You need to learn how to prioritize tasks in order or importance. But, like I said, fly the airplane first. If you don't, nothing else will matter.

You will be dead.
 
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Henning said:
Fine, your opinion is worth the same as mine. I think they are wasting money.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

My take is that there's an incompatibility between student and instructor.

One should think long and hard before announcing someone is fundamentally not pilot material. I think you jumped the gun badly here.

Of course that's just my opinion.

But the Air France thought exercise is absurd on too many levels to even address.
 
Henning said:
That is correct, and I stand by my advice. No need to fly with him, this isn't about physical flying capability. It's an assessment of his mental wiring given what they are saying. I am willing to bet the OP has already come to the same conclusion. Listen to the words people use, it tells you a lot in where they are. That they are at 40hrs and just now doing their first XC does not tell me they are excelling in the learning process.
Click to expand...
_

+1000. Well said. Needs to find another hobby.
 
FastEddieB said:
Agreed.

My take is that there's an incompatibility between student and instructor.

One should think long and hard before announcing someone is fundamentally not pilot material. I think you jumped the gun badly here.

Of course that's just my opinion.

But the Air France thought exercise is absurd on too many levels to even address.
Click to expand...

Nope, at 40hrs for first XC they should be further along mentally in spite of the CFI. There are two basic ingrained reaction types to stress, the ones expressed are not conducive to being safe in an emergency. The AF sample is a completely appropriate one because it exemplifies the reaction type the OP expresses.
 
wby0nder said:
Wow Henning, you haven't met or flown with the guy.
Click to expand...

Thanks for an obvious insight. The op has every right to keep flying and learn from CFIs who have not watched too many Hollywood stereotypes. This is especially true if he does not intend to fly for a living, and instead wants to slowly improve as a Typical VFR go get a burger type. The CFI has his number and is goading him instead of helping. Dumb approach.
 
I don't know of any professional flying training institution in the world who would wash out a student on the basis of flights with one and only one instructor.

The OP should find another instructor, explain his concerns, authorize the new CFI to speak to the first CFI, and then fly with the second instructor.

That's what any professional aviation school would have done well before now.

OP, piloting may or may not be for you, but it's too soon to tell.
 
Yes. I meant to emphasize more on non-confrontational attitude and introvert. Sorry meek is wrong. I am very comfortable flying the airplane.

SixPapaCharlie said:
"I am very meek by nature"

This concerns me a bit.
It is one thing to be non confrontational but If you really are "meek by nature" then piloting an aircraft is going to be hard and potentially unsafe.

What do you really mean by that comment?

If that was just your way of verbalizing a non confrontational nature, then no worries and my answer is fire your CFI. That's your first step in growing a pair so to speak. Actually either way, I would go fly with a different instructor. Even if you are struggling with things, it doesn't sound like this guy is helping but rather pushing you further into a submission state.

If you really are Meek, skiddish, unconfidient, then I tend to side with Mr. Henning.

When you are left seat, you step up to the plate and own everything. If there is a 1% chance that you are going to get in a situation and your answer be "Jesus take the yoke" I'd pick a slower hobby.

Your passengers will trust you to pilot the aircraft unconditionally.

For starters though, go fly with another CFI. Do a short XC and see if it is different.
Click to expand...
 
JimNtexas said:
I don't know of any professional flying training institution in the world who would wash out a student on the basis of flights with one and only one instructor.

The OP should find another instructor, explain his concerns, authorize the new CFI to speak to the first CFI, and then fly with the second instructor.

That's what any professional aviation school would have done well before now.

OP, piloting may or may not be for you, but it's too soon to tell.
Click to expand...

Exactly! One instructor doesn't even get to choose in the military! Thanks.
 
OP:

1) Ignore the downers on here. A lot of them aren't as unfaillable IRL as they'd have you believe.

2) You say you've solo'd already. I'd recommend stepping back and taking a hard look at yourself and your capabilities. Unlike virtually anything else, with flying you are taking your life in your own hands. Once you take off, you are the only thing and only person keeping yourself and any pax alive- if you cannot Aviate despite external stressors and navigate simultaneously, you will *die*.

3) If you've done #2 and still want to fly, find a different CFI and ask them to assess your basic abilities.
 
newbiepilot said:
Yes. I meant to emphasize more on non-confrontational attitude and introvert. Sorry meek is wrong. I am very comfortable flying the airplane.
Click to expand...

Then you owe it to yourself and your bank account to go out and fly with a different CFI. You don't even need to address it w/ the current one if that stresses you out from the non confrontation angle.

Just schedule a flight with someone. and I would even tell the other CFI what you are going through with the current guy (after you fly) and ask for an assessment.

Don't mention his name though as everyone knows everyone in the flying world
 
FastEddieB said:
Agreed.

My take is that there's an incompatibility between student and instructor.

One should think long and hard before announcing someone is fundamentally not pilot material. I think you jumped the gun badly here.

Of course that's just my opinion.

But the Air France thought exercise is absurd on too many levels to even address.
Click to expand...

Air France, like Swiss air had " problems of communication" American majors have tried to address this. The Swiss air co pilot had it right! Former fighter pilot. Tried desperately to get the captain to LAND instead of " doing it by the book " which killed them. The air France junior fellow should have been relieved. He was as clueless as the Colgan pilot. This fellow, the o.p . May be just trying to fly VFR for a burger. Go for it! ( I forgot San francisco which was cultural.)
 
a doctor killer in the making!! lol. if you don like your cfi just find another one. save yourslef time and money. an ineffective instructor is a big drain of resources.
 
Henning said:
He wasn't being an a-hole, he was influencing minor and typical stressors to the situation which at 40hrs should have been trivial yet there was a "near panic" reaction. The CFI is there to get them ready to serve in a command function. Self described "meek and non confrontational" are not traits that are conducive to command ability.

The OP is doing something they aren't wired to do, they aren't having fun. Aviation is deadly and expensive, why would one pursue it if they don't thoroughly enjoy it especially when the odds are it will kill them?:dunno:
Click to expand...

I see where you are coming from, and almost had that same feeling before thinking about it a little more. There is no reason for the CFI to act like that on his first XC. Let the guy enjoy and learn some stuff first before testing his ability to handle stress. You cant throw a newborn in a field and expect him to make hay.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Air France, like Swiss air had " problems of communication" American majors have tried to address this. The Swiss air co pilot had it right! Former fighter pilot. Tried desperately to get the captain to LAND instead of " doing it by the book " which killed them. The air France junior fellow should have been relieved. He was as clueless as the Colgan pilot. This fellow, the o.p . May be just trying to fly VFR for a burger. Go for it! ( I forgot San francisco which was cultural.)
Click to expand...

In the AF situation there was no one in any better mental state to relieve him, even the captain came up and disassociated from the situation. 3 Dissasociative personalities in one cockpit.
 
Wrong! If the kid did not realize he was pulling on the control stick so that it was all the way back and that he was in fact causing the problem, he had no business being in the seat in the first place! knock off the social worker terminology.!
 
Thanks Henning. I am not taking this personally. Otherwise what is the point of having an open-ended discussion.

My issue is not controlling the airplane. My issue is someone yelling, and fiddling with my controls when I am trying to aviate, navigate and communicate. I am not sure if i can say shut the f* up to my CFI. I just keep quite. It bothers me beyond doubt. As I mentioned, this was not the first case but this was definitely a nail in the coffin for me.

Henning said:
If you are at 40 hrs and in this state of mind, my advice is for you to quit flying. I don't have the time right now to go into all the reasons you should not be a pilot, but sufice it to say, you will die as PIC. This isn't me being a prick, this is not personal or a dig at you, but not all people are wired for command, and you are not. That will one day kill you, and whomever happens to be with you. Quit now, save the money, take up sailing.
Click to expand...
 
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