CFI Payment

[Soldier64]

Just a random question and if I am out of line please let me know. I am a military helicopter pilot with just shy of 1000 hours adding my FW SEL rating to my COM/IR Rotory ticket. The CFI that is teaching me is a cool and a good guy but I have a question. I have consistently paid him in cash at his request and the other day at 5.0 hours I was able to solo. When we settled up for the day he charged me 0.7 ground rate "to compensate him for being there while I solo." Is this normal? Sorry for the slight rant...

 

[philiplane]

A supervised solo requires supervision, which means he must be there to supervise. Solo means solo, which means he is not in the plane with you. So you're unhappy about paying him for a necessary function, which he cannot do in the plane with you, but he must witness, and sign off on, so you can have your add-on rating.

What was the question again?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

What was the question again?

You don't have to be QUITE so snarky.

It is not uncommon for a CFI NOT to charge for that sort of thing, but it is also not improper for him TO charge. I mean, after all, the guy is trying to make a living. And it IS his time.

 

[jsstevens]

FWIW, my CFI the Certified Flight Instructor I engaged for my Private Pilot Training:wink2: charged me his flight rate for the hours I logged on the flight with my first solo. So he charged me for ~.5 hours when he was standing by the runway with his handheld. Now, he didn't charge me for my other solo flights and he didn't charge me ground hours for pre and post flight briefing. He did charge me specifically for ground instruction when we were covering all sorts of ground topics.

For context, he was a retired Air Force officer and active real estate agent instructed because he loved it.

Just for comparison.
John

 

[Ted]

I charge for the time I spend as part of your lesson. So yes, I would charge for supervised solo as that's still part of your lesson.

 

[Soldier64]

A supervised solo requires supervision, which means he must be there to supervise. Solo means solo, which means he is not in the plane with you. So you're unhappy about paying him for a necessary function, which he cannot do in the plane with you, but he must witness, and sign off on, so you can have your add-on rating.

What was the question again?

I'm from Fort Lauderdale as well and you are an ass. As stated I am an Army Aviator and have not ever paid for training hence why I asked the question. I never mentioned I was unhappy with paying him the fee, either so I appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I simply asked if it was normal. Thank you for your time and the response. How much do I owe you at your ground rate?

 

[LDJones]

I charge for the time I spend as part of your lesson. So yes, I would charge for supervised solo as that's still part of your lesson.

You're essentially flying on his ticket....only right to compensate him. I suspect that was the least costly part of that flight.

 

[Soldier64]

I charge for the time I spend as part of your lesson. So yes, I would charge for supervised solo as that's still part of your lesson.

Thank you.

 

[JeffDG]

You're essentially flying on his ticket....only right to compensate him. I suspect that was the least costly part of that flight.

I wouldn't say it's so much that you're flying on his ticket, but you are consuming his time.

If the CFI is dedicating his time to me, then I should pay for that time. First solo, absolutely. Later on, not so much. I remember taxiing out once right behind my CFI who was heading up with another student while I was going up solo...I don't expect to pay him for that.

 

[jtheune]

I'm from Fort Lauderdale as well and you are an ass. As stated I am an Army Aviator and have not ever paid for training hence why I asked the question. I never mentioned I was unhappy with paying him the fee, either so I appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I simply asked if it was normal. Thank you for your time and the response. How much do I owe you at your ground rate?

You asked if your question was out of line and ended with the fact that you thought it was a rant. So I think he let you know the question was out of line and you inferred that you were unhappy with paying by referring to your comment as a rant.

manual quote:

Just a random question and if I am out of line please let me know. I am a military helicopter pilot with just shy of 1000 hours adding my FW SEL rating to my COM/IR Rotory ticket. The CFI that is teaching me is a cool and a good guy but I have a question. I have consistently paid him in cash at his request and the other day at 5.0 hours I was able to solo. When we settled up for the day he charged me 0.7 ground rate "to compensate him for being there while I solo." Is this normal? Sorry for the slight rant...

 

[frfly172]

Initial solo is part of the lesson,which requires the instructor to be present. If he charged you ground rate,it would seem he was saving you some money.

 

[Lindberg]

Is "supervised solo" a specific thing different from just "solo"?

I got my PP twenty years ago and never remember hearing that term. I also don't remember ever paying for a CFI ($20/hr!) when I was solo, but maybe I did on the first one.

For my recent rating, I did not pay anything for the CFI when I was solo, and I honestly don't know if there was any "supervision" or not.

 

[jesse]

Supervised solo basically means you supervised the decision for the student to go solo. Once they climb into the airplane I head home. I might watch them takeoff for sentimental purposes but I'm sure not of any use on the ground. I can't see **** anyways from where I can be without the airport police running me off.

That said if an instructor isn't comfortable having you solo without them babysitting on the ground that's their right and if they want to charge for that time they can do so.

 

[jesse]

Initial solo is part of the lesson,which requires the instructor to be present. If he charged you ground rate,it would seem he was saving you some money.

Please cite the reg supporting the statement in bold.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It is not uncommon for a CFI NOT to charge for that sort of thing, but it is also not improper for him TO charge. I mean, after all, the guy is trying to make a living. And it IS his time.

Best answer so far. I have seen it both ways with charging being slightly more common.

 

[RussR]

Please cite the reg supporting the statement in bold.

How else would you know when they landed, so you can shake their hand, cut their shirt off, and draw on it?

Call me old-fashioned.

But you mean there are actually CFIs who sign their student off for initial solo, and don't stay around to watch three laps around the pattern? Maybe I'm naive.

Regulation-wise, I don't think there is one, but practicality-wise, how else would you do it?

 

[Brad Z]

Supervised solo basically means you supervised the decision for the student to go solo. Once they climb into the airplane I head home. I might watch them takeoff for sentimental purposes but I'm sure not of any use on the ground.

So the student cuts off his own shirt tail? Asks the line guy to pose in his first solo photo? Or more importantly, no post flight brief?

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

1st Solo was one of the best days of my life.
I would gladly have paid double.

 

[jesse]

How else would you know when they landed, so you can shake their hand, cut their shirt off, and draw on it?

Call me old-fashioned.

But you mean there are actually CFIs who sign their student off for initial solo, and don't stay around to watch three laps around the pattern? Maybe I'm naive.

Regulation-wise, I don't think there is one, but practicality-wise, how else would you do it?

Sure I've done it. If I've got things to do (like get to my real job) and don't want to stand on a ramp when it's -25 degree windchill.

I don't do the shirt tail thing. I usually get a picture but there have been times where it's simply not practical for me to stay. Most people given the option of soloing today versus waiting for another day when I can stand around to take a picture afterwords will choose the soloing today.

 

[jesse]

So the student cuts off his own shirt tail? Asks the line guy to pose in his first solo photo? Or more importantly, no post flight brief?

Post flight brief can be done just as effectively over the phone. I can't see the airplane when it's landing anyways (decent sized class c airport).

 

[denverpilot]

Post flight brief can be done just as effectively over the phone. I can't see the airplane when it's landing anyways (decent sized class c airport).

Bigger than decent. You can't see crap from the ramp there.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not sure the time can be considered "part of your lesson" (i.e., can't log it as "training received"), but it's time I'm on the job for you, so it's time for which I will charge you.

 

[write-stuff]

You're paying for a professional's time, so, not that unusual. I charge from handshake to handshake. Only time the meter stops is if we take a lunch break.

 

[philiplane]

Doctors charge from start to finish.
Lawyers charge from start to finish.
Golf pros charge from start to finish.
They are considered professionals. But none of them sign your logbook or have to abide by the avalanche of rules that FAA certificated people do.
If instructors are supposed to be professionals, then they need to deliver good value and charge accordingly. Which means posting your rates up front, so no one is surprised.
Signing off someone for solo, and then leaving before they are done, is unwise at best. Rushing off to a "real job" means the instructor doesn't take himself or his client seriously, and that is a grave error. When I am with a client, that job IS my "real job", no matter what else is going on in the background. It would be impossible to defend your certificate if something happened, no matter how small, such as the client striking a taxi light on his way back to the ramp. Careless and reckless is a favorite charge of the FAA, and a CFI gets a 90 day suspension, minimum.

Yes, the client is on the instructor's ticket until he gets his next BFR. Or next rating. If anything happens before, the FAA goes after the last CFI to sign his log book. So you are on the hook for up to two years at a time, both in the FAA's eyes, and in a civil court room.

 

[JimNtexas]

One way or another our CFI should be compensated for the time he spends teaching us.

Some CFI's just adjust their flying hour rate to include enough extra to compensate for related ground instructions.

More and more the CFI's I know charge for 'contact time', which would include watching a student solo.

Please don't expect a CFI to teach for free. And supervising a solo is certainly teaching!

 

[philiplane]

I'm from Fort Lauderdale as well and you are an ass. As stated I am an Army Aviator and have not ever paid for training hence why I asked the question. I never mentioned I was unhappy with paying him the fee, either so I appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I simply asked if it was normal. Thank you for your time and the response. How much do I owe you at your ground rate?

As an Army aviator, you have been the recipient of north of a million dollars worth of flight training, at taxpayer expense. I have paid a little short of a million dollars in taxes over the last 40 years, so you should be a little more grateful that folks like me have made your life possible.

In addition to paying for ALL of your training, I paid for ALL of my training through commercial, CFI, A&P, IA, avionics tech, etc. A little more than $70,000 over the last 30 years. I would never begrudge a CFI 0.7 to watch someone solo. Or yell at the guy who tried to have a little fun answering, essentially, a stupid question.

Lighten up, let's have a little fun here!

Cheers!

PS, I charge $100 hourly, but you can donate my fee to charity.

 

[poadeleted21]

I've never paid for anything other than Hobbs time. But y'all keep on saying how its deserved pay then start a thread bitching about the cost of a PPL then start another one about the time building CFIs.

 

[drotto]

My school charges Hobbs for the plane and then instructor time separately to account for ground instruction, pre-flight, etc. With that said the instructors are usually generous and will only charge 0.1 or 0.2 above what was on the Hobbs. They are usually spending alot more time than that working with you on the ground.

 

[mcmanigle]

I have paid a little short of a million dollars in taxes over the last 40 years, so you should be a little more grateful that folks like me have made your life possible.

Wow. I think that's the first time I've heard a civilian suggest that a military veteran should be "grateful that folks like me have made your life possible."

 

[jesse]

Doctors charge from start to finish.
Lawyers charge from start to finish.
Golf pros charge from start to finish.
They are considered professionals. But none of them sign your logbook or have to abide by the avalanche of rules that FAA certificated people do.
If instructors are supposed to be professionals, then they need to deliver good value and charge accordingly. Which means posting your rates up front, so no one is surprised.
Signing off someone for solo, and then leaving before they are done, is unwise at best. Rushing off to a "real job" means the instructor doesn't take himself or his client seriously, and that is a grave error. When I am with a client, that job IS my "real job", no matter what else is going on in the background. It would be impossible to defend your certificate if something happened, no matter how small, such as the client striking a taxi light on his way back to the ramp. Careless and reckless is a favorite charge of the FAA, and a CFI gets a 90 day suspension, minimum.

Yes, the client is on the instructor's ticket until he gets his next BFR. Or next rating. If anything happens before, the FAA goes after the last CFI to sign his log book. So you are on the hook for up to two years at a time, both in the FAA's eyes, and in a civil court room.

Since you obviously took a few swipes at me with your post -- tell me -- of what value is the instructor sitting on the ground standing in below zero weather looking at a tiny dot he can't see the cast majority of time and certainly can't control. Sitting there and charging the student for that wasted time is pointless when you can save them money and move on with your day. If I sign someone to solo they are ready, period.

Have you ever soloed a student?

 

[LDJones]

How else would you know when they landed, so you can shake their hand, cut their shirt off, and draw on it?

Call me old-fashioned.

But you mean there are actually CFIs who sign their student off for initial solo, and don't stay around to watch three laps around the pattern? Maybe I'm naive.

Regulation-wise, I don't think there is one, but practicality-wise, how else would you do it?

Personally, I'm on a handheld with binoculars for every first solo. I'm sending someone up in a flying machine for the first time all by themselves. No matter how much time I have with them, I'm not going to assume anything and make sure I'm available in the event anything unusual arises during that flight.

Plus, I want to be the first to congratulate them when they're back on the ground....it's a momentous event!

Subsequent solos I'll approve via text message or phone call, but I want to know when they're flying.

 

[Clip4]

Just a random question and if I am out of line please let me know. I am a military helicopter pilot with just shy of 1000 hours adding my FW SEL rating to my COM/IR Rotory ticket. The CFI that is teaching me is a cool and a good guy but I have a question. I have consistently paid him in cash at his request and the other day at 5.0 hours I was able to solo. When we settled up for the day he charged me 0.7 ground rate "to compensate him for being there while I solo." Is this normal? Sorry for the slight rant...

I see your point based on your aviation experiance because this wasn't your first solo flight.

 

[LDJones]

I see your point based on your aviation experiance because this wasn't your first solo flight.

It was in that category and class so at a minimum there was a logbook endorsement required.

 

[ARFlyer]

If I have to be present by OUR* 141 rules then I charge them for my time. So for solos I will charge them the time I am present watching them. If I have to look over there flight plan before their commercial solo x/c then I charge.

Since I only see 50% of that fee I make sure I charge the exact time. I'm not being a scrooge. I need to be able to eat! However, I only charge the time I am doing something with/for the student. If I'm inside BSing with a fellow CFI and their outside pre-flighting then that is not my time.

If I fly outside of our 141 then I charge the going rate of our region. However I gave a flight review to a fellow CFI and got paid in dinner. Which was perfectly fine with me. We did our required ground over some BBQ at a nearby town and flew back home.

*Every 141 school rules are different. There is the OVERALL FAA 141 rules then the individual school's 141 rules.

 

[philiplane]

Since you obviously took a few swipes at me with your post -- tell me -- of what value is the instructor sitting on the ground standing in below zero weather looking at a tiny dot he can't see the cast majority of time and certainly can't control. Sitting there and charging the student for that wasted time is pointless when you can save them money and move on with your day. If I sign someone to solo they are ready, period.

Have you ever soloed a student?

Many, and never left one alone. Go take a few FAA legal seminars and you will do the same. Plus, how do you debrief when you're not there? You lose a real learning opportunity by ditching your client early. Review your FOI and you'll see we are supposed to close the loop on every lesson. It's the right thing to do.
And FAA rules are Minimum Standards. Who wants to just meet the minimums? That's like settling for D's, don't you think?

 

[jesse]

Many, and never left one alone. Go take a few FAA legal seminars and you will do the same. Plus, how do you debrief when you're not there? You lose a real learning opportunity by ditching your client early. Review your FOI and you'll see we are supposed to close the loop on every lesson. It's the right thing to do.
And FAA rules are Minimum Standards. Who wants to just meet the minimums? That's like settling for D's, don't you think?

You really don't get it...There is nothing to gain by watching something you can't see. You can debrief just as effectively later that evening.

Since you've gained so much legal knowledge from such FAA legal seminars could you please indicate to me how you are going to be less liable by standing in one spot where you can't see what's happening versus standing in another spot where you can't see what's happening?

 

[poadeleted20]

Until that student gets up there by him/herself, you don't know for sure what s/he is going to do. That's why instructors monitor the flight from the ground either in the tower (if there is one) or by handheld. It certainly saved the day for me and my Engle-as-a-second language first-solo student when he failed to understand an unclear instruction from the local controller and the controller got upset -- after which effective communication between the two ceased. Even in the old days when there was no radio involved, instructors watched the show from the ground to provide a debrief (not to mention being there for the shirttail cutting ceremony).

 

[noobJohn]

So I have a couple of comments based on my limited experience.

Comment 1 : My CFI (tm) charged by the hobbs meter for when he was in the plane with me and, as I recall, when he wasn't in the plane but was watching my first solo. He wasn't the cheapest per hour but I appreciated the simplicity of his billing system. No extra charge ever for a 10 minute preflight briefing or a few minutes chatting after the engine was shut down.

Comment 2 : It was reassuring to hear My CFI (tm) on the radio after my first solo landing saying, "good job." It really wasn't that great a landing but, hey, I was down safely and proceeded to do 2 more laps around the airport before parking the plane and getting the shirt cut.

 

[Turningfinal]

You really don't get it...There is nothing to gain by watching something you can't see. You can debrief just as effectively later that evening.

Since you've gained so much legal knowledge from such FAA legal seminars could you please indicate to me how you are going to be less liable by standing in one spot where you can't see what's happening versus standing in another spot where you can't see what's happening?

Binoculars. Not a new invention

Like some of the other CFI's on here, I wouldn't leave in the middle of my student's first solo. I'm there to encourage, observe and provide feedback once finished. A debrief isn't helpful if it's done hours later - many small (and important) items may be forgotten. Besides, how could you provide effective feedback to a student if you didn't see what he/she was doing?

If you have a real job to get to, it's my opinion that you should be rescheduling that first solo.

 

[jesse]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. 95% of the reason is sentimental and not practical.

Small airfield with a handheld radio where you can see what's going on? That's useful.

Large class C? Not useful. You're not going to jump onto the radio and start transmitting over ATC to try to save them. If you want to talk about a legal mess that's exactly what that would cause.

9 years ago today I soloed an airplane for the first time. It was in Minnesota at a large class D and it was damn cold. My instructor wasn't watching either.