CFI for dangerous case?

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I'm a CFI with a unique situation. The owner of the plane I fly (Northern California) is a 70 year old longtime student pilot who has never gotten his license - he's really distracted even driving his car, much less his plane.

He's soloed a few times over the past decades, enough to get his confidence up and for him to start flying semi-regularly. A few years ago he crashed, but walked away. His last CFI made a deal with him that if he flew alone, their relationship was over. Sure enough, he flew.

He's offered for me to use his Cherokee as much as I like for free in exchange for teaching him. He's old enough now that he won't really fly more than five to ten teaching hours per year - he says he's serious about getting his ticket, but I'm not sure he even believes that himself.

Here are my thoughts, I'd like to hear yours:

My primary concern is that flying more will encourage him to fly alone. If he does fly alone, I'm absolutely certain he'll seriously injure or kill himself - I will never sign him off to solo.

I'm okay with the charade that he's working towards a license as long as he gets enjoyment out of flying that's worth it to him.


What would you do?

Thanks,

Anon in California
 
Do you really want to take the potential liability? If he ignores these rules, how do you know the plane is properly maintained?

A lot of reasons not to, many fewer reasons to.
 
Why is there any liability for the CFI if he does not sign off on a solo?

You have a Sugar Daddy. He takes pleasure in owning the plane and is willing to let you use in in exchange for dual (instruction that is).

If he is serious about solo and getting signed off for his ticket then you need to have a frank conversation and make a decision.

$10 says that is you are straight up and offer to be his "flying companion" you might wind up with a good deal with access to a plane and he gets to fly once in a while without the charade that he actually wants to get signed off.

If he is truly a danger to the skies...walk away.
 
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Don't touch that situation. They have soup kitchens and food stamps if you ain't getting enough work. Nevermind liability, you'll feel like crap if you enable this guy to off himself in his airplane. He was fired by his previous CFI, big flashing red light, woop woop woop.
 
If he's someone you'd never consider signing off for solo flight, than IMHO it's unethical to take him on as a student.
 
Both liability and maintenance come to mind. Even if you never sign him off, you know that he might solo illegally, and if he does and crashes into some rich dude's property or loved ones, guess who's going to get blamed for encouraging or "enabling" him?
Even if you end up proving your innocence, that legal process could still cost you a bundle.
And maintenance-wise, as others have mentioned, if a guy is willing to flout safety and fly illegally, you have no idea about the quality of his maintenance. For all you know, that plane and/or engine are one takeoff away from disintegrating. So I'd definitely walk away.
 
Walk, unless he is willing to agree to terms you set and abide by them. Doesn't sound like it, and it's his plane.

So walk.
 
I'm taking the old man's side. Give it to him and fly the **** out of his airplane.

This country is vaginated to the point people don't even want to have any fun anymore.

If he kills himself, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. You didn't kill him. He did. People need to own up to their own stupidity and stop looking for an excuse why their dumbassery screwed the pooch.
 
Maybe I'm missing something. Fly with him, and tell him he will not get signed off for solo unless things change. The ball is in his court.
 
Brad Z said:
If he's someone you'd never consider signing off for solo flight, than IMHO it's unethical to take him on as a student.
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Is it really unethical if that's the mutual expectation, though? Maybe he just likes to fly and knows he'll be a permanent student pilot.
 
Are you a professional career pilot, or trying to become one?

Do you have much in the line of assets?

If the answers to those questions is yes, THANK HIM FOR HIS OFFER AND WALK AWAY.


If the answer is no, it's just a ethics issue, if you're comfortable leading him on in exchange for a free hours, that's your call.
 
The last CFI had the right idea. Have a straight conversation with him. Tell him you can't support him flying solo and if he does, that's the end of it. It may end the arrangement but you'll know you didn't support him killing himself and you didn't take advantage of the situation by agreeing to train him, all the while knowing you won't sign off on solo.

Note:I am not a lawyer or a CFI or an actor that pretends to be one... Just my .02
 
mkosmo said:
Is it really unethical if that's the mutual expectation, though? Maybe he just likes to fly and knows he'll be a permanent student pilot.
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In my mind yes. I won't train someone I truly do not believe would make a safe pilot. I don't need the money that bad, and quite frankly I'm not that good of an instructor to think that I'd be able to perform a flight training miracle.

Usually it takes a few lessons to form that opinion, but it sounds like the OP has already figured that part out.

I'm sure he'll find another instructor who feels differently.
 
txflyer said:
I'm taking the old man's side. Give it to him and fly the **** out of his airplane.

This country is vaginated to the point people don't even want to have any fun anymore.

If he kills himself, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. You didn't kill him. He did. People need to own up to their own stupidity and stop looking for an excuse why their dumbassery screwed the pooch.
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I'm not sure what a vagina has to do with this situation, but I question the maintenance of an airplane owned by someone as described by the OP. I guess it's not very manly to be concerned about one's safety in an aircraft of questionable airworthiness.

As for the guy, I'm sure he'll find someone, but I wouldn't take on that headache. inevitably he's going to ask when he can solo, and probably won't like my answer.
 
Assuming maintenance is up to snuff. I would just have the conversation with him.

I would be perfectly honest with him say I honestly do not believe I would ever be able to sign you off to fly solo. I just don't think you are safe and over the years I haven't seen any improvement that would lead me to believe you will be. Having said that I am happy to fly with you any time my schedule allows so you can get up in the air and enjoy flying your plane.

Here is the thing. If I find out you are flying on your own even once we are done. There will be no second chances. If this works for you great if not it has been good to know you good luck....

I have often thought if I get old and don't feel safe I would just hire a CFI to go with me and go fly every now and then. Nothing wrong with that.
 
For those that haven't had the pleasure it is very grating and mentally tiring to teach people that just can't get it. Not talking a bout a CFI/student mismatch but the just can't get it, lots of CFIs have tried lots of time spent cases. Morals, ethics and liability aside it just isn't worth it. Consider yourself lucky you know the backstory and stay away.
 
txflyer said:
People need to own up to their own stupidity and stop looking for an excuse why their dumbassery screwed the pooch.
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As long as you are straight up with him that he will never be signed off to solo, but you would be happy to fly with him wherever and whenever he wants/needs to go somewhere... I'd say "GO FOR IT!"
 
Thanks y'all. Very helpful perspectives. I think I'll offer to fly together but not instruct - so as to not encourage. If he kills himself or someone else, I'd have a very hard time not feeling responsible if I'd been teaching him, regardless of any agreement we'd made.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks y'all. Very helpful perspectives. I think I'll offer to fly together but not instruct - so as to not encourage. If he kills himself or someone else, I'd have a very hard time not feeling responsible if I'd been teaching him, regardless of any agreement we'd made.
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That's a reasonable approach. Let him get in the air, but keep your name out of his logbook. Of course, you'll be PIC for those flights, so you need to have insurance to cover that plane.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm not sure what a vagina has to do with this situation, but I question the maintenance of an airplane owned by someone as described by the OP. I guess it's not very manly to be concerned about one's safety in an aircraft of questionable airworthiness.

As for the guy, I'm sure he'll find someone, but I wouldn't take on that headache. inevitably he's going to ask when he can solo, and probably won't like my answer.
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No one said the aircraft was un-airworthy. That's assumed, and I agree that if it's a death trap, don't go. I left that up to the OP to determine.

My point was it's kind of like this:

Old guy with plane wants to fly.
Young guy who can and wants to fly can fly him.

It doesn't really have to go very far beyond that. Only in America 2016 do you start talking about liability and over thinking it. OP said he'll do it as long as there's no instruction involved therefore there's no payment, so it's just flying. :dunno:
 
Jeff Oslick said:
That's a reasonable approach. Let him get in the air, but keep your name out of his logbook. Of course, you'll be PIC for those flights, so you need to have insurance to cover that plane.
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Agree with this. The only problem I can see is if the guy is really anti-authority or delusional and tries to fly on his own. Does he have kids who can take the keys away, so to speak, as sometimes needs to be done with elderly drivers?
 
txflyer said:
No one said the aircraft was un-airworthy. That's assumed, and I agree that if it's a death trap, don't go. I left that up to the OP to determine.

My point was it's kind of like this:

Old guy with plane wants to fly.
Young guy who can and wants to fly can fly him.

It doesn't really have to go very far beyond that. Only in America 2016 do you start talking about liability and over thinking it. OP said he'll do it as long as there's no instruction involved therefore there's no payment, so it's just flying. :dunno:
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You need to get out more. I've talked with guys like this, flown with guys like this, and investigated the accidents of guys like this. It's almost universal that they cut corners on maintenance. If you're a CFI and want to risk it, go ahead. For me, NFW.
 
Brad Z said:
You need to get out more. I've talked with guys like this, flown with guys like this, and investigated the accidents of guys like this. It's almost universal that they cut corners on maintenance. If you're a CFI and want to risk it, go ahead. For me, NFW.
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If I were a CFI, I probably wouldn't want to risk it.

If you say the plane is un-airworthy, I'll have to take your word for it being an investigator and worldly CFI who has talked to guys like this. :dunno:
 
Oddly enough, the plane is in fan-tastic shape. It's been hangared, meticulously cared for, oil changed several times yearly, all work done at every annual by the book, and after the accident the thing was repaired and re-certified. The cylinders were replaced two years ago. I know the A&Ps personally who have worked on the plane for decades, and trust them absolutely.

I've put 200+ hours on the plane and thousands of miles with never so much as a hiccup from the engine. But still, it feels better to keep my name out of his logbook.
 
I don't see anything wrong with flying with the old guy. If you want to CYA, write in his log book "not authorized to solo". I know an old guy here in Florida that owns a very pretty R44 but only flies it with a CFI in the left seat. I don't think the owner has a pilot's license. I'm sure the arrangement you describe is not all that uncommon.
 
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linuxjim said:
The last CFI had the right idea. Have a straight conversation with him. Tell him you can't support him flying solo and if he does, that's the end of it. It may end the arrangement but you'll know you didn't support him killing himself and you didn't take advantage of the situation by agreeing to train him, all the while knowing you won't sign off on solo.

Note:I am not a lawyer or a CFI or an actor that pretends to be one... Just my .02
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I'd take that approach but go a bit further. For one thing after getting the "student" to understand that soloing or a checkride are simply not in the cards with you as the CFI, I'd tell him that not only would I not fly with him again if he made any solo flights without my authorization (which was very unlikely to be granted) I'd report him to the FAA.

In addition I think I'd get him to sign a document acknowledging that he's not allowed to solo until further notice. If that doesn't work for him I'd stay out of his airplane and his logbook.
 
gismo said:
I'd take that approach but go a bit further. For one thing after getting the "student" to understand that soloing or a checkride are simply not in the cards with you as the CFI, I'd tell him that not only would I not fly with him again if he made any solo flights without my authorization (which was very unlikely to be granted) I'd report him to the FAA.

In addition I think I'd get him to sign a document acknowledging that he's not allowed to solo until further notice. If that doesn't work for him I'd stay out of his airplane and his logbook.
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I would think that all you need to do is monitor his hobbs/tach, if you are the only one he flies with. Any unexplained "bump" (allowing for short maintenance runups), would need explaining.
 
Logging the Hobbs is a good idea, but doesn't prevent the flight.
Make a deal, you buy a prop lock and keep the keys. (and monitor the Hobbs)
Good luck.
 
manac said:
Logging the Hobbs is a good idea, but doesn't prevent the flight.
Make a deal, you buy a prop lock and keep the keys. (and monitor the Hobbs)
Good luck.
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Ferkrissake, leave the guy his dignity. If you don't trust him to not fly the airplane alone, then wash your hands of it. I said make a note in his log book just to CYA but that is based on him making a promise to you that you have some reasonable expectation that he will keep. If you want to keep track of the tach hours on the airplane, fine. I would just do that quietly and not make a big deal about it.
 
One thing nobody else has mentioned that instantly comes to my mind is what if he just decides if nobody will sit in the right seat with him he's old anyway and he might as well just "go for it" and fly on his own.

I can't say much on the legal liability angle but to me a person is only responsible for their own actions and intentions. What he does is on him, if he isn't signed off and tries to fly anyway that's his deal.
 
cowman said:
One thing nobody else has mentioned that instantly comes to my mind is what if he just decides if nobody will sit in the right seat with him he's old anyway and he might as well just "go for it" and fly on his own.

I can't say much on the legal liability angle but to me a person is only responsible for their own actions and intentions. What he does is on him, if he isn't signed off and tries to fly anyway that's his deal.
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Maybe. But if the guy is a bit senile (or whatever the PC term is), it might make sense to talk to his kids. They might think their dad shouldn't just "go for it".
 
I am just a student pilot getting close to solo myself, but here is my opinion:

There is currently nothing preventing this guy from taking off tomorrow if that is his wish. As others have mentioned, if he is not allowed to fly with a CFI then he might just decide to fly all by himself anyway.

At least if you have a long talk with him that unless there is some major improvement in his attention to detail and ability to manage the plane then you cannot see a situation in which you would sign him off to solo then he might begin to understand his limits. Even if you never sit in that plane beside him, I would see it as a good thing to have that talk with him. Then based on his responses you might decide that with a lot of rules in place you might be able to help him fly a few more times before he cannot even pretend to be a pilot anymore. That may happen next week, or he may surprise everyone and have some major breakthroughs that allow him to advance in his pursuits.

So please, no matter what else you do, at least try to convince the guy that flying that plane by himself is illegal, dangerous, and very likely suicidal.
 
If you think you'll blame yourself if he does something stupid and hurts or kills himself, then you gotta ask yourself how much is that worth...$100? $1k?, $10k? Only you can make the call. You called it a charade. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted. If you don't care, then don't worry about it, go fly, enjoy it, and give him enjoyment.
 
dweyant said:
Wow, nanny state much?
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The guy already flew solo after he said he wouldn't.
Isn't that the core problem for the OP?

I think the old guy should be helped to fly by any means possible.
I am just trying to come up with a solution so he doesn't kill himself on an unauthorized solo.
 
RotorDude said:
Maybe. But if the guy is a bit senile (or whatever the PC term is), it might make sense to talk to his kids. They might think their dad shouldn't just "go for it".
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Yeah but that's kinda between him and his family. He's still got access to an airplane and potentially willingness to fly it regardless of what OP does or doesn't do.

I don't know the guy or his family situation but they're the ones who have to decide how much he needs to be limited and how to go about it. OP really isn't in any position to do that, he can either instruct or not instruct.
 
Any kind of meddling skycop stuff is dumb. If you think you might need to play games to keep him from flying you need to just not get involved.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm a CFI with a unique situation. The owner of the plane I fly (Northern California) is a 70 year old longtime student pilot who has never gotten his license - he's really distracted even driving his car, much less his plane.
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Could you elaborate on this? Is it the type of distraction where he hears his cell phone going off in the back seat and reaches back to get it while driving 60 MPH, or is it more of a wandering eyes situation as he passes buildings and what not along the road? Perhaps you don't know, but I'm curious if you do.

Unregistered said:
He's soloed a few times over the past decades, enough to get his confidence up and for him to start flying semi-regularly. A few years ago he crashed, but walked away. His last CFI made a deal with him that if he flew alone, their relationship was over. Sure enough, he flew.
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What was the nature of the crash?

Unregistered said:
He's offered for me to use his Cherokee as much as I like for free in exchange for teaching him. He's old enough now that he won't really fly more than five to ten teaching hours per year - he says he's serious about getting his ticket, but I'm not sure he even believes that himself.
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Let's assume he is. Why would he fly only 5-10 training hours a year if that's the case? I'd be asking him to fly more, assuming he is serious. If he is clearly not serious, I would do what the others say and leave your name out of his logbook, emphasizing that you're there to allow him to fly for pleasure, and not for the end-goal of obtaining a PPL -- because these are two completely different approaches to sitting in the right seat.

Unregistered said:
My primary concern is that flying more will encourage him to fly alone. If he does fly alone, I'm absolutely certain he'll seriously injure or kill himself - I will never sign him off to solo.
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This needs to be communicated with the student. Depending on how he acts towards you, this can be either very difficult or very easy. If he can come to an agreement on this, that is great. Yes, there is a track record of disobeying an instructor's orders, which is a concern. Go with your gut on this. If there is any room for leeway, I would make clear the consequences of disobeying your order to not solo -- which may need to involve the FAA.
 
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