CFI Flight Test

iRyan

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Ryan
After posting on which fsdo to use, I took Cap'n Ron's advice and called the phl fsdo. They are so busy and I was given a dpe for the test. Joe Miller will give the test and I am shooting for the end of Dec. I have mixed feelings about paying for the test, especially if I fail it.

Right now I am studying the notes from the accelerated school and going through the cfi pts.

I have to remind myself that this is for fun and I should enjoy it. sigh.
 
Good luck! It is just for fun, but boy can it be stressful sometimes.
 
For a lot of reasons including undermanning due to budget issues and hiring freezes, the FSDO's are getting so swamped that they are farming out even initial CFI rides to the most experienced DPE's in their districts. Try to ask around and get any intel you can on Mr. Miller.
 
After posting on which fsdo to use, I took Cap'n Ron's advice and called the phl fsdo. They are so busy and I was given a dpe for the test. Joe Miller will give the test and I am shooting for the end of Dec. I have mixed feelings about paying for the test, especially if I fail it.

Right now I am studying the notes from the accelerated school and going through the cfi pts.

I have to remind myself that this is for fun and I should enjoy it. sigh.

How backed up were they?
 
Joe is a good guy. He will not be out to try to fail you. If you know your stuff you should do fine.

I have not had a check-ride with him, yet(I'm working on my IFR). However I have flown with him as as glider instructor. (in a strange twist he was my tow pilot when I took my glider check ride.)

Good Luck
 
I will second that Joe is a good guy.

He gave me my PP check ride in January.

Very fair. Definitely not looking to fail you.
 
Good luck to you. Unfortunately, I personally know (or am on the mailing list of) several CFI candidates who failed the ride / oral two or more times. Both eventually passed and both have student pilots now but man oh man it sounds like a tough test.
 
Good luck to you. Unfortunately, I personally know (or am on the mailing list of) several CFI candidates who failed the ride / oral two or more times. Both eventually passed and both have student pilots now but man oh man it sounds like a tough test.

Just out of curiosity, what makes it tough? Is it the required precision of the flying, or does the examiner pull idiotic stunts such as students might do and which require the CFI to exercise superhuman flying skills to avoid the both of them going down in flames?

Just wondering is all...

-Rich
 
Good luck to you. Unfortunately, I personally know (or am on the mailing list of) several CFI candidates who failed the ride / oral two or more times. Both eventually passed and both have student pilots now but man oh man it sounds like a tough test.

Well those of us out here in the Bay Area have the unfourtunate situation of being located near the reach of the Oakland FSDO. I have never heard good things. 5 hour ground sessions and 3 hour flights! :hairraise:
 
Well those of us out here in the Bay Area have the unfourtunate situation of being located near the reach of the Oakland FSDO. I have never heard good things. 5 hour ground sessions and 3 hour flights! :hairraise:

True, but my friend was one and I am not sure if he went to Oakland or Sacramento. The other was a woman who posted to the 99s mailing list and she isn't even in California.

Both, however, did have FSDO's and not DPE's.
 
I'm told that the Scottsdale FSDO has an 80% failure rate for first-time CFI applicants, and they're proud of it. I don't think anyone gets to use a DPE here either. I've heard horror stories of 6 hour+ oral exams from them too.
 
I am not sure how long the backup is, but the FAA employee said the backlog is large. I look at as paying my dues and I am fairly smart, so it is a matter of putting the time into studying. It would be easier if I didn't have a career!
 
I'm told that the Scottsdale FSDO has an 80% failure rate for first-time CFI applicants, and they're proud of it. I don't think anyone gets to use a DPE here either. I've heard horror stories of 6 hour+ oral exams from them too.

Article (AvWeb) a couple months ago identified Scottsdale & Vegas as problem children:

"Obtaining a pilot certificate in popular training areas of the Southwest may get more expensive thanks to a decision by the FAA to limit the number flight tests designated pilot examiners (DPEs) can administer. FAA spokesman Ian Gregor confirmed to AVweb that the agency has capped flight tests for DPEs under the authority of the Scottsdale and Las Vegas flight service district office (FSDO).

"The FAA routinely reviews procedures, policies and programs to ensure they are operating safely, efficiently and properly," Gregor said. "A review of our Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) program identified potential issues with DPEs who conduct a high number of pilot flight checks"

Of course the DPEs are complaining because the result (limit to 200 tests/year) will cut their income. Until reading the article, I never thought being a DPE was a full-time occupation. Let's see...$400 per test (avg) * 200 = $80,000. I'd like that income & job!

Now back to the article

"Fred Gibbs, a flight instructor in Flagstaff, said the result will come right out of the pockets of his students. "The examiner intends to raise the rate from $450 to $700 to make up the lost income he will incur as a result of the fewer number of flight tests he is allowed to administer," Gibbs said."
 
Just out of curiosity, what makes it tough? Is it the required precision of the flying, or does the examiner pull idiotic stunts such as students might do and which require the CFI to exercise superhuman flying skills to avoid the both of them going down in flames?

Just wondering is all...

-Rich


Have you got one yet?
 
I'm told that the Scottsdale FSDO has an 80% failure rate for first-time CFI applicants, and they're proud of it. I don't think anyone gets to use a DPE here either. I've heard horror stories of 6 hour+ oral exams from them too.
I heard they used to send some of them to a DPE named June Bonesteel who apparently had an even worse reputation than the feds...I took mine with a DPE (Bill Lewis for those of you who know Vegas area DPE's) based out of the Las Vegas FSDO and found my test to be fair and very straight foward.
 
Good Luck! Study hard and if you are prepared, you will do fine. I took my CFI check ride in April, if you have any questions feel free to message me.

Mr. Miller is a great guy. Although I haven't had a check ride with him, he did a mock glider one for me a few years back, and I have flown with him as my CFI as well. He is definitely thorough and fair and will not be out to fail you.

As a side-note... Dave, do you fly gliders at PGC?
 
Just out of curiosity, what makes it tough?
What makes it tough is many applicants do not have both sufficient mastery of the material and the teaching skills to be able to teach the material to someone who doesn't know it already.

Is it the required precision of the flying
No. Applicants for CFI have already demonstrated the required level of flying precision on their Commercial Pilot practical test. The trick at the CFI stage is to be able to talk about what they are doing while they are doing it. Many folks can fly it or talk it, but not both at the same time. The other big problem in flight is being able to determine just what the "student" (i.e., the examiner pretending to be a student) is doing wrong on a maneuver and provide accurate input to the "student" so the "student" can fix the problem. The last issue is maintaining situational awareness and outside visual scanning for traffic while flying and talking through the maneuvers.

or does the examiner pull idiotic stunts such as students might do and which require the CFI to exercise superhuman flying skills to avoid the both of them going down in flames?
No. That would be too close to the edge for safety. The examiner will bumble some maneuvers to see if the CFI applicant picks up what's wrong (e.g., insufficient or overcontrolled rudder during a chandelle) and teaches the "student" how to correct the "error."

They may also do something near the ground during landing to see if the instructor applicant takes control correctly and in a timely manner. For example, the "student" might overcontrol pitch in the flare and then move the yoke forward to push the nose down. The instructor applicant should be guarding the yoke to prevent this from going so far as to hit nosewheel first or with too great a sink rate -- just as s/he will have to do with primary students later on.

And I cannot overemphasize that the CFI ride is primarily about teaching, not flying. You will be judged more on your ability to impart learning to your student than on any demonstration of your own pilot skills. The Aviation Instructor's Handbook book is rather dry, and (considering that it’s supposed to be prepared by professionals who really know about teaching) not all that easy to learn from. However, the important data are there, and you’d best learn not only to parrot them, but to understand what they mean and apply them when you teach (and if you don’t recognize these “levels of learning” you’re not ready yet). You will have to be able to read the student’s mind to find out whether he’s really learned the material or not, and if not, WHY not. Then you must be able to figure out how to get past whatever barrier to understanding exists in that student’s mind. You’ll find that there are as many successful techniques as there are students, but there may only be one of those many that works for any one particular student. Being able to hit on one that will work quickly, before the student becomes discouraged, is the toughest part of flight instructing.

How to work through this? Get with some successful teachers, not necessarily pilots. I’m talking about someone you know who’s an experienced high school teacher, one that the kids remember long after graduation as the highlight of their experience. Talk about teaching and learning with this person. You might also consider some basic education courses at the local college.

Finally, here are a few points I put together to get your mind right for the initial CFI checkride:

1. You are a teacher, not a pilot. How you teach is far more important than how you fly the plane. It doesn't matter if you slightly screw up a maneuver, as long as you identify the screw-up as it happens, talk about why it happened, and then how to do it right.

2. Don't rush into any answers. When asked questions, show the examiner where the answer is written -- you're showing how to teach a student, not demonstrating your own superior knowledge. That means you should know COLD where to find the answers -- if asked about the red/green/white tower light gun signals, it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to get to the right page in the AIM. And you should know instantly whether an answer to an FAR question is in Part 61 or Part 91 (HINT: If the rule applies no matter who's flying the plane, it's in 91. If not, it's in 61.)

3. Be relaxed and organized. When asked a to teach an item, take a moment to gather your thoughts and draw out any blackboard diagrams or itemized lists for the lesson. You're not on "Jeopardy" -- there's no one gonna beat you to the buzzer and steal your $200 prize.

4. Inventory your stuff before you go to the meet -- the checklist in the PTS is a good tool. Make sure you have all the source materials to teach as well as answer all the questions in the PTS.

5. Typically, during the oral, the examiner will jump on one topic and continue asking questions until you run out of answers. In the Air Force, we called this game "Stump the Dummy." As the questioner knows more than the questionee about the topic he selected (which is why the questioner selected it), the final outcome (the dummy is stumped) is never in doubt. The critical elements are how far the dummy can get before being stumped, and how he handles the situation -- straight knowledge, clear explanations, use of the book when appropriate or necessary, and no BS or tap-dancing when finally stumped.

6. Expect a long, grueling session. You're being given the authority to release others into the sky without anyone else's oversight. They want to make damn sure you can make good decisions in that respect. For that reason, I think the initial CFI is the most significant ride you'll ever take.

Good luck,
Ron Levy
CFI since 1973
 
Article (AvWeb) a couple months ago identified Scottsdale & Vegas as problem children:

"Obtaining a pilot certificate in popular training areas of the Southwest may get more expensive thanks to a decision by the FAA to limit the number flight tests designated pilot examiners (DPEs) can administer. FAA spokesman Ian Gregor confirmed to AVweb that the agency has capped flight tests for DPEs under the authority of the Scottsdale and Las Vegas flight service district office (FSDO).

"The FAA routinely reviews procedures, policies and programs to ensure they are operating safely, efficiently and properly," Gregor said. "A review of our Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) program identified potential issues with DPEs who conduct a high number of pilot flight checks"

Of course the DPEs are complaining because the result (limit to 200 tests/year) will cut their income. Until reading the article, I never thought being a DPE was a full-time occupation. Let's see...$400 per test (avg) * 200 = $80,000. I'd like that income & job!

Now back to the article

"Fred Gibbs, a flight instructor in Flagstaff, said the result will come right out of the pockets of his students. "The examiner intends to raise the rate from $450 to $700 to make up the lost income he will incur as a result of the fewer number of flight tests he is allowed to administer," Gibbs said."

Yeah thank ATP schools for this one. scary there are that many pilots floating around that didnt actually have to do a full checkride.
 
Well those of us out here in the Bay Area have the unfourtunate situation of being located near the reach of the Oakland FSDO. I have never heard good things. 5 hour ground sessions and 3 hour flights! :hairraise:
That's pretty much the standard for an initial CFI ride these days. The FAA is very serious about making sure new CFI's know the all material, and can fly, teach, and do both at the same time. That isn't something you can determine in an hour and a half.
 
Thanks for all the info. and help. What hits me is before I would ask my CFI questions if I was unsure about something; now (when I pass) I will be the one providing the knowledge and training. It is very overwhelming and a huge responsibility.
 
That's pretty much the standard for an initial CFI ride these days. The FAA is very serious about making sure new CFI's know the all material, and can fly, teach, and do both at the same time. That isn't something you can determine in an hour and a half.

Oh I by no means expect an hour and a half quick and dirty checkride. But Im not sure if I could get through 5 hours without frying my brain! :D
 
Oh I by no means expect an hour and a half quick and dirty checkride. But Im not sure if I could get through 5 hours without frying my brain! :D

Sometimes examiner asks after 5 or 6 hours of ground if you'd like to fly. A lot of people say yes and fail.

My ground was 6.5 hours total. I flew next day :)
 
What makes it tough is many applicants do not have both sufficient mastery of the material and the teaching skills to be able to teach the material to someone who doesn't know it already.

No. Applicants for CFI have already demonstrated the required level of flying precision on their Commercial Pilot practical test. The trick at the CFI stage is to be able to talk about what they are doing while they are doing it. Many folks can fly it or talk it, but not both at the same time. The other big problem in flight is being able to determine just what the "student" (i.e., the examiner pretending to be a student) is doing wrong on a maneuver and provide accurate input to the "student" so the "student" can fix the problem. The last issue is maintaining situational awareness and outside visual scanning for traffic while flying and talking through the maneuvers.

No. That would be too close to the edge for safety. The examiner will bumble some maneuvers to see if the CFI applicant picks up what's wrong (e.g., insufficient or overcontrolled rudder during a chandelle) and teaches the "student" how to correct the "error."

They may also do something near the ground during landing to see if the instructor applicant takes control correctly and in a timely manner. For example, the "student" might overcontrol pitch in the flare and then move the yoke forward to push the nose down. The instructor applicant should be guarding the yoke to prevent this from going so far as to hit nosewheel first or with too great a sink rate -- just as s/he will have to do with primary students later on.

And I cannot overemphasize that the CFI ride is primarily about teaching, not flying. You will be judged more on your ability to impart learning to your student than on any demonstration of your own pilot skills. The Aviation Instructor's Handbook book is rather dry, and (considering that it’s supposed to be prepared by professionals who really know about teaching) not all that easy to learn from. However, the important data are there, and you’d best learn not only to parrot them, but to understand what they mean and apply them when you teach (and if you don’t recognize these “levels of learning” you’re not ready yet). You will have to be able to read the student’s mind to find out whether he’s really learned the material or not, and if not, WHY not. Then you must be able to figure out how to get past whatever barrier to understanding exists in that student’s mind. You’ll find that there are as many successful techniques as there are students, but there may only be one of those many that works for any one particular student. Being able to hit on one that will work quickly, before the student becomes discouraged, is the toughest part of flight instructing.

How to work through this? Get with some successful teachers, not necessarily pilots. I’m talking about someone you know who’s an experienced high school teacher, one that the kids remember long after graduation as the highlight of their experience. Talk about teaching and learning with this person. You might also consider some basic education courses at the local college.

Finally, here are a few points I put together to get your mind right for the initial CFI checkride:

1. You are a teacher, not a pilot. How you teach is far more important than how you fly the plane. It doesn't matter if you slightly screw up a maneuver, as long as you identify the screw-up as it happens, talk about why it happened, and then how to do it right.

2. Don't rush into any answers. When asked questions, show the examiner where the answer is written -- you're showing how to teach a student, not demonstrating your own superior knowledge. That means you should know COLD where to find the answers -- if asked about the red/green/white tower light gun signals, it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to get to the right page in the AIM. And you should know instantly whether an answer to an FAR question is in Part 61 or Part 91 (HINT: If the rule applies no matter who's flying the plane, it's in 91. If not, it's in 61.)

3. Be relaxed and organized. When asked a to teach an item, take a moment to gather your thoughts and draw out any blackboard diagrams or itemized lists for the lesson. You're not on "Jeopardy" -- there's no one gonna beat you to the buzzer and steal your $200 prize.

4. Inventory your stuff before you go to the meet -- the checklist in the PTS is a good tool. Make sure you have all the source materials to teach as well as answer all the questions in the PTS.

5. Typically, during the oral, the examiner will jump on one topic and continue asking questions until you run out of answers. In the Air Force, we called this game "Stump the Dummy." As the questioner knows more than the questionee about the topic he selected (which is why the questioner selected it), the final outcome (the dummy is stumped) is never in doubt. The critical elements are how far the dummy can get before being stumped, and how he handles the situation -- straight knowledge, clear explanations, use of the book when appropriate or necessary, and no BS or tap-dancing when finally stumped.

6. Expect a long, grueling session. You're being given the authority to release others into the sky without anyone else's oversight. They want to make damn sure you can make good decisions in that respect. For that reason, I think the initial CFI is the most significant ride you'll ever take.

Good luck,
Ron Levy
CFI since 1973

Well, thank you, Ron. That answer should be a sticky.

-Rich
 
Sometimes examiner asks after 5 or 6 hours of ground if you'd like to fly. A lot of people say yes and fail.

My ground was 6.5 hours total. I flew next day :)

Yeah, probably a good idea. I know Ill keep that in mind. Im probably gonna be going through San Jose FSDO. Anyone know anything?
 
Nope, nor do I think instructing is in my future. I'm just curious.

-Rich

I thin Ron pretty much summarized what it all about.

I have friend who is flying in American Airlines for 20 years. He renews he CFI every two years for 20 years now. Yet he hardly has a chance to exercise his flight instructor privileges (since AAA doesn't allow it). When I asked him why he bother to renew it, he said that CFI initial was one of the toughest exams he ever taken and he would never want to take it again. I tend to agree with him although I don't fly for any airlines :)
 
Article (AvWeb) a couple months ago identified Scottsdale & Vegas as problem children:

"Obtaining a pilot certificate in popular training areas of the Southwest may get more expensive thanks to a decision by the FAA to limit the number flight tests designated pilot examiners (DPEs) can administer. FAA spokesman Ian Gregor confirmed to AVweb that the agency has capped flight tests for DPEs under the authority of the Scottsdale and Las Vegas flight service district office (FSDO).

"The FAA routinely reviews procedures, policies and programs to ensure they are operating safely, efficiently and properly," Gregor said. "A review of our Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) program identified potential issues with DPEs who conduct a high number of pilot flight checks"

Of course the DPEs are complaining because the result (limit to 200 tests/year) will cut their income. Until reading the article, I never thought being a DPE was a full-time occupation. Let's see...$400 per test (avg) * 200 = $80,000. I'd like that income & job!

Now back to the article

"Fred Gibbs, a flight instructor in Flagstaff, said the result will come right out of the pockets of his students. "The examiner intends to raise the rate from $450 to $700 to make up the lost income he will incur as a result of the fewer number of flight tests he is allowed to administer," Gibbs said."
$700 :yikes: My DPE charges $200.

Just curious, where did you get the limit of 200 tests/year? I always heard it was 2/day limit. (But, that was hearsay as well.)
 
Yeah, probably a good idea. I know Ill keep that in mind. Im probably gonna be going through San Jose FSDO. Anyone know anything?

I've been told that only one applicant passed flying part after 5 hour of ground, but he had relatively young FAA examiner who made it fairly easy pass.

Lucky me, I got 40 year FAA veteran who was about to retire. Someone said during "old times" no one would pass on the first attempt by default :) Although I don't believe that, I failed my first try during the second hour of flying part.
 
I've been told that only one applicant passed flying part after 5 hour of ground, but he had relatively young FAA examiner who made it fairly easy pass.

Lucky me, I got 40 year FAA veteran who was about to retire. Someone said during "old times" no one would pass on the first attempt by default :) Although I don't believe that, I failed my first try during the second hour of flying part.

Its always in the end. My comm multi happened that way the first time too, on final approach. :(
 
Its always in the end. My comm multi happened that way the first time too, on final approach. :(

Watch out for emergencies, and let your "student-examinaer" fail to learn from mistakes :yes: And another tip - the most misunderstood control is a rudder :)
 
Oh I by no means expect an hour and a half quick and dirty checkride. But Im not sure if I could get through 5 hours without frying my brain! :D
Nothing wrong with saying at that point, "Y'know, I'm too fried to fly safely. How about we stop here and pick up again tomorrow?" OTOH, I remember full-time flight instructing where I showed up early, flew 8 hours with 6 different students (for lunch eating a sandwich while watching student #3 preflight the plane), and went home late, so it's not a bad test of whether you can hack real world instructing or not. :D
 
I have friend who is flying in American Airlines for 20 years. He renews he CFI every two years for 20 years now. Yet he hardly has a chance to exercise his flight instructor privileges (since AAA doesn't allow it).
OTOH, even though it isn't logged as such, he's probably giving more than 8 hours a day of training to his copilots. :D
 
Nothing wrong with saying at that point, "Y'know, I'm too fried to fly safely. How about we stop here and pick up again tomorrow?" OTOH, I remember full-time flight instructing where I showed up early, flew 8 hours with 6 different students (for lunch eating a sandwich while watching student #3 preflight the plane), and went home late, so it's not a bad test of whether you can hack real world instructing or not. :D

Its never wrong to follow the IMSAFE check in front of an examiner or with students im sure!
 
$700 :yikes: My DPE charges $200.
Probably a lot more for an initial CFI, which is an all-day deal (or, should I say, ordeal), than for, say, a multi-engine additional class rating, which can be three hours handshake to handshake.

Just curious, where did you get the limit of 200 tests/year? I always heard it was 2/day limit. (But, that was hearsay as well.)
The 2/day limit is in FAA Order 8900.2.
a. Number of Practical Tests Per Day.
A DPE may not conduct more than 2 practical tests in 1 calendar-day (i.e., midnight to midnight), unless that DPE has received specific written permission from the supervising FAA office. Initial tests, re-tests, discontinuances, or continuations of practical tests are all considered practical tests, and the DPE must have received specific written permission from the supervising FAA office to do more than 2 practical tests in any 1 calendar-day.
This is popularly known as the Annabel Fera rule, as she used to conduct as many as four initial practical tests in a day using a dovetailing system so she was flitting from applicant to applicant. When the FSDO tried to stop that, she pointed out that there was no rule on point. HQ FAA Flight Standards responded by adding the rule quoted above.​


The 200 tests per year is something which has been discussed but not decided on, no less implemented.​
 
My cfi ride was two separate appointments. Part one was oral,at the Fsdo. Three hours. Part two was log review preflight 90 minutes and another two hours of flight. It was thorough, fair, but not scary.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Probably a lot more for an initial CFI, which is an all-day deal (or, should I say, ordeal), than for, say, a multi-engine additional class rating, which can be three hours handshake to handshake.

The 2/day limit is in FAA Order 8900.2.
This is popularly known as the Annabel Fera rule, as she used to conduct as many as four initial practical tests in a day using a dovetailing system so she was flitting from applicant to applicant. When the FSDO tried to stop that, she pointed out that there was no rule on point. HQ FAA Flight Standards responded by adding the rule quoted above.​


The 200 tests per year is something which has been discussed but not decided on, no less implemented.​

Interesting. I had Annabelle for a couple of rides and thought she was thorough. I busted my Private with her in fact. But she only did morning and afternoon that I saw.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Interesting. I had Annabelle for a couple of rides and thought she was thorough. I busted my Private with her in fact. But she only did morning and afternoon that I saw.
It's been a few years since the put a stop to that. However, I must say she was always thorough. It's just that the FAA couldn't stand the way she did it, which involved things like while the first applicant was preflighting, the second was getting the oral, and the third was flight planning (this was back when you didn't get the XC assignment until you showed up for the test).
 
Yeah thank all pilot mills schools for this one. scary there are that many pilots floating around that didnt actually have to do a full checkride.

Fixed. It's all those pilot mills, not just the ATP brand of schools. It's so bad down here. I knew it was this bad nor could it be this bad before I started training and flying down here. My flight school is great, it's an awesome locally owned place and even though there are 26 airplanes and 12+ CFIs everyone knows almost every student and we're learning how to fly airplanes not how to get a job with an airline. Unfortunately due to the geographic location of where I fly we have to deal with those scary pilots who may or may not be as proficient as they should be.


I'm lucky that I had a great DPE and he'll be my DPE again. I got a very fair and thorough checkride and that's all I ask for. I'm sure my IFR will be difficult, but again fair. If I fail it's on me, not the DPE. I don't think he hits the 200 checkrides a year mark because he's also a the chief CFI so he only does a couple a week at most so that *shouldn't* effect his prices. I hope not anyway.
 
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