CFI candidate lands with side loading

Landing at a diagonal does seem well, iffy... but you can sure take off at a diagonal on a 150 ft wide runway in a little plane

I have a heard a lot of interesting stories told by the "old guys" starting w/ "I remember when...." and the winds are impossible 40-50 and they're in a cub or champ or some small tailwheel... and it requires wing walkers catching the plane while it "flies" backwards etc etc etc... Fun stories - makes my toes curl though...
There is a rancher kid out here too flies a cub and I asked him once about bouncing - he just grinned and said "yeah I bounce ya'know over rocks, gopher holes and such, Heck Jean bouncing is fun!" He told me also about a dirt road out by one of their ranches: "you can land on that road -you just duck under that power line and then taxi over the rail road crossing and park off on the side

The school in Georgetown has a 15 kt wind limit for students - out here they'd never fly except at 5am or 9pm with that kind of restriction

~~ sorry for the threadjack
 
Jeanie said:
I have a heard a lot of interesting stories told by the "old guys" starting w/ "I remember when...." and the winds are impossible 40-50 and they're in a cub or champ or some small tailwheel... and it requires wing walkers catching the plane while it "flies" backwards etc etc etc... Fun stories - makes my toes curl though...
There is a rancher kid out here too flies a cub and I asked him once about bouncing - he just grinned and said "yeah I bounce ya'know over rocks, gopher holes and such, Heck Jean bouncing is fun!"

~~ sorry for the threadjack
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Back in the fall I was ferrying a C205 for maintenance. It was around dusk and as I am about to touchdown see a whole bunch of dark shapes on the runway ahead. I had 40 degrees of flaps, so added full power and waited to liftoff as the flaps started to retract.

It was a flock of at least 25 turkeys -- big ones, with no sense of urgency.

Turkeys are unlike most other birds -- they'll run first, and eventually fly.

Anyway, I decided I had plenty left past the turkeys -- so I lifted off, maintained 20" agl, hopped over the winged dumda$$es, and touched down midway down the 3100' strip.

Why not just go around?

I figured if I hit one there would be unkown damage. I figured I would be better off planning to land immediately than doing the whole go-around procedure with a questionable airplane.

Now, those old timers flying Champs and Chiefs in 30-40 knot gusts...

Sorry, as light as the Chief is, it's not much fun with winds much above 12 around here (rolling terrain).

In flatter locales winds are less turbulent, but the light wing loading means a "fun" flight becomes a wrestling match.

I've flown in 20G27 in the Chief over WV -- it wasn't fun.

:no:
 
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Turkeys are DUMB... Hopping over them before they could react was a good thing.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since being in the middle gives you the most distance available on each side, yes, it does. Or do you think errors only occur in the upwind direction?
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Not only, but when it goes wrong downwind it doesn't take up as much room as upwind and the wind will help you correct. Into the wind everything is working against you.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Hubby is finishing up his CFI training. He just cannot seem to land the airplane from the right seat without side loading. I've suggested he just get that right foot entirely off the rudder and make some landings with it tucked under the seat until he starts to get a new sight picture.

Any other (better) ideas?
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I started having the same problem about 1/2 way through my CFI training. The thing my instructor finally said the made it click to me was that what I was seeing was a "illusion" For while your hubby is his going to have land the airplane in what looks like a crooked alignment.

For me I would touch down just fine and then the airplane would start off to the left requiring quite a bit of rudder for correction to keep it on the centerline. At 1st I thought there was something wrong with the airplane until my instructor pointed out that what I thought was a perfectly straight touchdown was an Illusion. When I started touching down with the airplane obviously pointed to the right (my perception) it landed and tracked straight down the runway.

Interesting to me was that the issue didn't start occuring until I had 5-7 hours of right hand seat time.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I learned to fly in the 1940's in a J3 by landing and taking off in the 20 acre wheat field behind the barn after the winter wheat was harvested... Took about four days before dad let me go solo..
Now, what's this here center line thingie, you keep talking about?

denny-o
 
Henning said:
Not only, but when it goes wrong downwind it doesn't take up as much room as upwind and the wind will help you correct. Into the wind everything is working against you.
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That just doesn't make any sense at all. The wind is just as likely to gust up as drop off, maybe more so.
 
Mathematically speaking - Well, first of all, very few runways are wider than 150 feet. Even if you have a plane that can land short enough (210 feet) to land at a 45º angle to the runway, you've still only eliminated less than 30% of the crosswind.

Now, strong winds are likely to be gusty - Get an extra-strong gust just prior to touchdown, and you're going to be in the weeds. I'm with Ron - The angled landing doesn't make sense. If you can't land on the runway, and there aren't any safe surfaces pointing close to into the wind, go elsewhere.
 
Peggy,

I've had the same problem to some extent - But only when landing the 182 from the right seat. I do fine from the right seat in the DA40.

There are two possible explanations:

1) With 400+ hours in the 182 and only 50+ in the DA40, I'm more used to landing from the left seat in the 182; and/or

2) The Cessna has a big square cowling.

I'm going to go with #2 (combined with a bit of #1) - I think when you get used to the relatively squared-off cowl you're used to a certain sight picture that gets messed up when you land from the right seat.

This reminds me of something similar that happened to me in trucks. I learned to drive in a Freightliner FLD-series truck with a big square hood, like this:

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After driving those for over a year, I switched to a truck with a rounded & sloped hood, like this:

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After the switch, I couldn't drive worth crap at first - That's when I realized that I had learned to hold my lane by "cheating" - keeping the centerline aligned with the corner of the hood. With the rounded hood, that didn't work any more and I had to develop more of a sense of where I was in relation to the lane. I think the same thing is at work in the Cessna, for both me and your husband.

So... I would suggest that if you want to do something with him, go up and fly with you in the left seat and him in the right - You do the first few landings while he watches to help develop the sight picture. Then let him try some. If he side-loads it, back to you (so he's not reinforcing bad habits). If he does it right, let him keep doing it.
 

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Ron Levy said:
That just doesn't make any sense at all. The wind is just as likely to gust up as drop off, maybe more so.
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If you are heading to the downwind side, the wind helps your correction effort, if you are heading to the windward side, the wind is working against your corrective effort. What doesn't make sense?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's when I realized that I had learned to hold my lane by "cheating" - keeping the centerline aligned with the corner of the hood.
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I don't know if I'd call that cheating - that is just a matter of using a fixed reference point to help you. We do that sort of thing in large ships all the time...you pretty much have to. Picking a fixed point on the bow or stern and comparing its relative motion to a buoy or point on the shore is a necessity.
 
Ron Levy said:
Let's say we're talking about a 3000 x 75 runway. If you draw the diagonal (even just halfway down), the angle from one corner to the other side 1500 feet away is less than three degrees. Does a 3-degree change in the wind justify giving up all your margin for lateral error in event of a gust or some pilot slop? I think not, and I don't think the FAA recommends it, but YMMV.
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That 3* is linear. What I do would be described as an arc which flattens out as rudder becomes more effective. So, I might start out nearly 40-50-60* relative to the rwy and then transition into alignment with the rwy. Depends on wind speed.

When I was flying tours in N AZ it wasn't uncommon to have 26022G30 with RWY 15-33. I think I was the only one to deviate off the CL on the take off roll. I'm dangerous. But I didn't side load and skip down the rwy either fighting to gain control.
 
I'm jealous about the centerline in the same way as maintaining alt and airspeed. It's about precision.
 
Henning said:
If you are heading to the downwind side, the wind helps your correction effort, if you are heading to the windward side, the wind is working against your corrective effort. What doesn't make sense?
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If the wind picks up, you deviate downwind. If it slacks, you deviate upwind. I just don't see any reason why the wind is more likely to slacken or pick up, so I want margin for error on both sides. Consider it a corollary of the Sundance Kid's Second Rule of Gunfighting*: "Aim for the middle. That way, if you miss, you still hit something." In our case, we aim for the middle so if we miss, we don't hit something.

* The First, IIRC, being "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."
 
Henning said:
I flew out of Harrison AR with a guy to go bring in an O-470 Stinson 108 he had just bought. When we got back there was a 40kt direct crosswind blowing from the south. He called me on the radio and said "lets go to..." "Nah, My car is here and I haven't got a couple hours to waste getting back here" "You can't land here, the crosswind is too much, you'll wreck my new plane!" "Watch me I'm gonna land with no crosswind." That confused him:D I lined up final perpendicular to the runway and lined up with a taxiway. I dropped it in on one edge of the runway in a three point and was at taxi speed by the time I hit the taxiway and taxiied up into the main hangar. He did another lap and followed me in. "Well, that worked pretty sweet", "Yeah, didn't it."
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Are you just bragging Mr Sierra Hotel?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Are you just bragging Mr Sierra Hotel?
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Nope. 40kts of wind directly on the nose might as well be zero wind...until it comes time to taxi. If he had actually MADE the crosswind landing aligned with the runway, then that might involve some bragging rights. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
If the wind picks up, you deviate downwind. If it slacks, you deviate upwind. I just don't see any reason why the wind is more likely to slacken or pick up, so I want margin for error on both sides. Consider it a corollary of the Sundance Kid's Second Rule of Gunfighting*: "Aim for the middle. That way, if you miss, you still hit something." In our case, we aim for the middle so if we miss, we don't hit something.

* The First, IIRC, being "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."
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If the wind picks up, You will weathervane into the wind and drive off the windward side of the runway and your rudder force is less effective against it. The only way it will move you downwind is if you are still flying and then it doesn't matter because you are still flying. You don't fly tail draggers much do you? When things go wrong in a crosswind, they go wrong to weather. Things don't go "wrong when you are still flying because you can bail out of it no worries. It's when you are interfaced with the ground that things go bang-crack. Nothing to bang crack on in the air.

This ain't a gunfight, it's energy management.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Are you just bragging Mr Sierra Hotel?
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No, it was no great feat, and that was the point, sometimes you just need to look outside the box for the simple solution. A Stinson Voyager will basically hover to a landing in a 40kt wind.
 
Henning said:
If the wind picks up, You will weathervane into the wind and drive off the windward side of the runway and your rudder force is less effective against it. The only way it will move you downwind is if you are still flying and then it doesn't matter because you are still flying. When things go wrong in a crosswind, they go wrong to weather. Things don't go "wrong when you are still flying because you can bail out of it no worries. It's when you are interfaced with the ground that things go bang-crack. Nothing to bang crack on in the air.

This ain't a gunfight, it's energy management.
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This! If the wind is really strong, you'd have to be pretty creative to get the plane to go the wrong direction downwind - except maybe if you forgot to keep a wing low.
Henning said:
No, it was no great feat, and that was the point, sometimes you just need to look outside the box for the simple solution. A Stinson Voyager will basically hover to a landing in a 40kt wind.
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The L-5C I fly on occasion is like this. I landed it one time in Hondo in a 30G40KT wind. I think I was stopped in 150' or less. THEN came time to taxi... The big slabsided fuselage did NOT help. I literally, even with good brakes, could not turn downwind to taxi because of the wind working against me on the fuselage and rudder. Finally figured out that I could turn upwind very easily, use a little power for momentum, and do 270s to turn where I wanted to go.

Ryan
 
Henning said:
If the wind picks up, You will weathervane into the wind
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If you're landing, you can't weathervane until your wheels are on the ground. In addition, if you're holding a correction and the wind changes, you're going to diverge laterally before you react and apply the correction and the correction overcomes inertia. That means you're headed for the very nearby weeds before you can remove the control inputs you had to hold the plane steady against the existing wind. Or are you saying that any change in wind during the takeoff roll will always result in a divergence to the windward side? I don't think so....

And finally, imagine reading an accident report which started, "The aircraft departed the right side of the runway during takeoff roll after lining up on the right side of the runway rather than the centerline."
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're landing, you can't weathervane until your wheels are on the ground. In addition, if you're holding a correction and the wind changes, you're going to diverge laterally before you react and apply the correction and the correction overcomes inertia. That means you're headed for the very nearby weeds before you can remove the control inputs you had to hold the plane steady against the existing wind. Or are you saying that any change in wind during the takeoff roll will always result in a divergence to the windward side? I don't think so....

And finally, imagine reading an accident report which started, "The aircraft departed the right side of the runway during takeoff roll after lining up on the right side of the runway rather than the centerline."
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Did I get lost? Are you talking about landing or taking off?
 
RyanShort1 said:
The L-5C I fly on occasion is like this.. I literally, even with good brakes, could not turn downwind to taxi because of the wind working against me on the fuselage and rudder. Finally figured out that I could turn upwind very easily, use a little power for momentum, and do 270s to turn where I wanted to go.

Ryan
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Can't go through the eye of the wind, turn like a square rig. I owned a L-5E...Actually, it was never an L-5 since it went straight to the USMC. That made it an OY-2.
 
Ron Levy said:
I thought we were talking about landings, and then Henning started talking about weathervaning, which only happens with the wheels on the ground.
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Why do you think that winds only affect aircraft when they are on the ground?
 
In strong gusty winds sometimes the force of a gust is very localized and perpendicular to the vertical stabilizer (think Stinson). The sudden force could cause a 'weathervane' in the air during the flare.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
It gets blown off the runway. :D

Airplanes are affected by the wind all the time - But the weathervaning only happens with wheels on the ground.
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Since technically a "weathervane" is an object, we can discount airplanes suddenly transforming into:

weathervane.jpg


OK, so "weathervaning" is the tendency to point into the wind. Airplanes do that.

The ground is the reference for "which way did it turn?" but that's all. You can "weathervane" some number of degrees off your current heading from a gust in a light airplane while still 10' AGL.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're landing, you can't weathervane until your wheels are on the ground. In addition, if you're holding a correction and the wind changes, you're going to diverge laterally before you react and apply the correction and the correction overcomes inertia. That means you're headed for the very nearby weeds before you can remove the control inputs you had to hold the plane steady against the existing wind. Or are you saying that any change in wind during the takeoff roll will always result in a divergence to the windward side? I don't think so....

And finally, imagine reading an accident report which started, "The aircraft departed the right side of the runway during takeoff roll after lining up on the right side of the runway rather than the centerline."
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Are you saying that when you're about to touch down with your cross wind correction in and the cross wind picks up and say you are already out of rudder, that the plane won't weathervane into the wind? Come on Ron, you're making yourself look stupid now.

And yes, on takeoff, an increase in the crosswind force will turn you into the wind. A reduction in wind is not as critical as you can always release and even reverse rudder. When it increases, you only have so much more to give it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I thought we were talking about landings, and then Henning started talking about weathervaning, which only happens with the wheels on the ground.
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Your wheels don't hit the ground when you're landing? Do planes fly into the ditch or drive there? Weathervaning does not only happen with wheels on the ground, it happens anytime that you don't have enough rudder to overcome the crosswind. It's what defines the actual maximum cross wind component rather than the books Demonstrated one.
 
I'm not buying the 'airplanes only weathervane on the ground' idea either.

Here's a question - where's the pivot point of the airplane in flight?

Obviously, on the ground, the landing gear creates the pivot point, but in flight, the pivot point doesn't just go away. It still has one and it is somewhere up forward meaning that in a x-wind, the airplane is going to want to point its nose somewhat into that wind.

Airplanes react alot like ships - the big difference is the medium in which they travel. Winds are much like currents. In a ship, when moored or anchored, the pivot point is the point where the anchor chain or mooring line meets the ship. Once the ship is underway, the pivot point starts moving forward and is generally within the first third of the lenght from the bow. If I am driving a ship with a current from the left, I am going to need right rudder to maintain course - airplane reacts much the same way.
 
Ron Levy said:
What happens to a weathervane when it becomes detached from its mount?
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Not a good analogy - unlike an airplane or ship, an actual weathervane does not have a propeller on it creating forward motion. That is why an airplane still has a pivot point when it is in flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
What happens to a weathervane when it becomes detached from its mount?
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As soon as the weathervane has a means of propulsion and non-uniform aerodynamic surfaces that'll be a relevant question.
 
If the wind is localized (by which I mean small enough to hit the tail but not the rest of the airplane) - the airplane will pivot around the CG. But if the wind is not localized - the whole airplane moves.
 
If a crosswind increases while you're lined up and ready to land, and you run out of rudder, time to go around, not think of some daft out of the box solution. Go somewhere with a runway lined into the wind, for example. Did that the other day with another pilot, I wasn't sold on his crosswind technique (I thought him rusty) and decided to land at another airfield (actually, I strongly suggested, but he took the hint).

Yeah, I can land huge crosswinds if I have to. But I usually don't have to. If you are making good decisions you'll have the fuel to reach another strip. What do you really have to gain by making the tough landing? A couple hours ferrying cars? That's a boatload of risk for not that much, at least in my opinion.
 
TMetzinger said:
If the wind is localized (by which I mean small enough to hit the tail but not the rest of the airplane) - the airplane will pivot around the CG. But if the wind is not localized - the whole airplane moves.
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I agree that the whole airplane moves. I don't agree that it just blows like a detached windsock. That would assume that the wind pressure is equal everywhere on the airframe which it certainly isn't since propwash and non-uniform airframe will influence the behavior. Then ya gotta consider the aircraft is being pulled (or pushed) through the air from a single point.

Besides, it won't rotate around it's center of gravity, that's a lift thing. It'll pivot on the point of propulsion with a lever arm to the center of pressure.
 
Clark1961 said:
Besides, it won't rotate around it's center of gravity, that's a lift thing. It'll pivot on the point of propulsion with a lever arm to the center of pressure.
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That is what seems a little fuzzy to me - textbooks will tell you that in flight, the airplane will yaw around the CG, but a ship in water most definitely does not pivot or yaw around its CG - the pivot point for a ship is a function of the speed of the ship. When dead in the water it is the CG. As the ship starts to pick up speed, that pivot point starts to move forward away from the CG.
 
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